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Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

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  • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

    I wonder, Bfgrn, if you will admit that your claim that a licensed dealer can sell without a background check was completely wrong?

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    • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

      Originally posted by Bfgrn View Post
      "How strict would gun laws have to be to prevent massacres?"

      Strict enough to prevent a criminal from buying guns in the safety, comfort and sanction of a gun show without having a background check run on him. No matter what is being said, there IS a loophole in the gun show law that allows a big gun dealer to pose as little uncle Joe selling a gun or two, and circumvent doing a background check.

      FACT: Gun sellers who claim to be occasional sellers are not required by current federal law to conduct background checks on their customers. Furthermore, there is no clear definition of how many guns a person can sell as an occasional seller it could be dozens, or even hundreds.

      The Firearm Owners' Protection Act (FOPA) states: 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D), (22). Those not engaged in the business of dealing guns are exempt from the licensure requirement.

      So, closing the gun show loophole would not punish any law abiding gun owner. Your argument is invalid.

      And Mrs M, as citizens, we can't stop a criminal from buying an illegal firearm from the trunk of another criminal in some dark alley.

      But, that's where the criminal should be forced to buy a gun. In a totally illegal setting, with all the inherent dangers that come with it. BUT, our current laws sanction criminals being able to walk into a gun show, receive expert advice, discounts, what ever weapon(s) they desire without a background check or having to pay black market prices or risk the dangers of buying a weapon from another criminal in a dark alley.
      Neither the Colorado shooter, nor the Connecticut shooter bought their firearms at a gun show, let alone without a background check.

      When are you liberals going to realize that more "feel good" legislation will not make anyone safer, but will discourage more law abiding citizens from owning and carrying firearms? In the end, the ONLY way to stop a psychopath intent on killing innocents is to shoot him.

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      • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

        Originally posted by smurf View Post
        Neither the Colorado shooter, nor the Connecticut shooter bought their firearms at a gun show, let alone without a background check.

        When are you liberals going to realize that more "feel good" legislation will not make anyone safer, but will discourage more law abiding citizens from owning and carrying firearms? In the end, the ONLY way to stop a psychopath intent on killing innocents is to shoot him.
        Gun control nuts don't want to hear that the weapons they use they don't get from gun shows as a routine. Mostly they are black market guns which will continue to have available even if all the law abiding people turned in their guns. Laws only mean something to law abiding citizens.

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        • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

          Originally posted by Bfgrn View Post
          Here is some info on the loophole...

          What is the gun show loophole?

          Federal law allows people who sell guns to avoid running background checks or keeping records by calling themselves occasional sellers, and these sellers often congregate at gun shows. The loophole provides criminals with easy access to firearms without having to worry about any background checks.
          • Current law requires licensed gun dealers to conduct background checks, because that is the only way to determine whether a person is eligible to buy a gun. Licensed dealers must also keep records about the buyer so ATF can trace the gun if it is recovered at a crime scene.[i]
          • The law does not, however, require so-called occasional sellers to do these checks and theres no clear definition of what qualifies as an occasional seller.[ii]
          • Many sellers at gun shows abuse that loophole by calling themselves occasional sellers. Because they concentrate at gun shows, it is easy for felons and other prohibited possessors to find someone who will sell to them without a background check.
          ...........*ATF concluded that gun shows and flea markets are a major venue for illegal trafficking.[iii]
          • Gun shows linked to the Pentagon Shooting: In March 2010, John Bedell who was prohibited by law from possessing guns shot two Pentagon police officers with a gun purchased from a private seller at a Las Vegas gun show.
          • Gun shows were tied to a broad range of violations, including straw purchases and the sale of kits to convert legal guns into illegal machine guns.


          Solution: Require occasional sellers to run instant background checks.

          It seems to me that the solution is to define the term of a dealer "engaged in the business", so BATFE can enforce the laws that are alredy on the books; although they already have a pretty good definition that they aren't bothering with;

          Dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
          eCFR &mdash; Code of Federal Regulations

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          • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

            Perhaps we need to just leave guns alone and put everyone in nice, stylish bullet proof vests. It would frustrate the mass murderers so badly that they would just turn their guns on themselves. We could even make small ones for kids, and for women you could have two nicely shaped cones for their breasts to fit into.

            And no, I ain't kidding. I am looking to cut down on the killing without taking away the guns of good decent people. Punishing everyone for the actions of a few crazy people just seems kinda stupid and over reacting. Kinda like cutting your horse's head off to cure his headache. It might work, but there are better ways to get rid of the headache.

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            • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

              Originally posted by thanatos144 View Post
              Also that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.....You have a reading problem?
              You might want to think about that yourself.

              Originally posted by CharlesD View Post
              The 2nd amendment also call for uninfringed keeping and bearing of arms. the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
              Fortunately for America has had that right interpreted by the US Supreme Court to mean a right of the individual.
              Tommy guns proved quite effective at deterring the government and promoting self defense. Are you suggesting that everyone has the right to own one?

              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
              The .223 I own which is the same gun with a different stock is used for varmint hunting. The bushmaster was not built to kill people if that is your insinuation. The design was for ease of shooting and marketing.
              All guns are designed and build to kill things. Just because most users kill nothing more than a paper target doesn't negate that fact.

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              • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                Originally posted by ericams2786 View Post
                I am opposed to the Patriot Act, as well as the TSA and the DHS it created. I don't want them to exist. If you are really so naive as to think that DHS and the TSA, which do not routinely go around shooting people, and which only operate domestically need ONE BILLION rounds of ammo that even the military does not use because it is banned by the Geneva Convention, then man I just feel bad for you. One billion rounds is a lot of damn ammo to be using domestically. Seriously, think for a minute.
                Just how many rounds of ammo do you think a typical law enforcement officer goes through at the practice range and in live fire exercises each year? Maybe you should look into it.

                By the way, while the Hague Convention of 1899 (not the Geneva Convention) prohibits hollow point bullets in international warfare, they are preferred by law enforcement due to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets.

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                • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                  Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
                  Tommy guns proved quite effective at deterring the government and promoting self defense. Are you suggesting that everyone has the right to own one?
                  Unless you're a felon you do have the right to own one and, assuming you have the money, you can buy one (a Thompson, anyway).

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                  • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                    Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
                    You might want to think about that yourself.


                    Tommy guns proved quite effective at deterring the government and promoting self defense. Are you suggesting that everyone has the right to own one?
                    Don's panic, but in the vast majority of states, a private citizen CAN own a fully automatic Thompson SMG. It takes some extra ATF paperwork and a big bankroll (transferrable fully automatic firearms are hard to come by). Thompsons in good condition go about $50,000 these days.

                    And despite the fact that these guns are available to and owned by civillians, not one lawfully owned fully-automatic firearm has ever been used in a crime.

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                    • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                      Originally posted by Cleisthenes
                      And where in the Constitution does it say that felon's loose this right?
                      Nice deflection. It doesn't, but that is a different subject. Regardless, your question "are you suggesting that everyone has the right to own one [Tommy gun]?" and the assumption you were making (that citizens are not allowed to own such weapons) are both ill-informed. As has been pointed out, the vast majority of citizens have the right and the legal means to own such a weapon.

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                      • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                        Originally posted by ThorHammer View Post
                        Nice deflection. It doesn't, but that is a different subject. Regardless, your question "are you suggesting that everyone has the right to own one [Tommy gun]?" and the assumption you were making (that citizens are not allowed to own such weapons) are both ill-informed. As has been pointed out, the vast majority of citizens have the right and the legal means to own such a weapon.
                        Except it's not a choice between all guns or no guns. All rights come with limitations and restrictions. If felons can be prevented from owning any gun then requiring background checks and registration or even prohibiting a whole class of firearms is not in violation of the constitution.

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                        • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                          Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
                          Except it's not a choice between all guns or no guns. All rights come with limitations and restrictions. If felons can be prevented from owning any gun then requiring background checks and registration or even prohibiting a whole class of firearms is not in violation of the constitution.
                          I disagree. I think prohibiting any class of direct fire weapon goes against the reason of the 2nd Amendment as explained by the founders. I'd also draw the line at explosive rounds/shells. I also think those you have demonstrated an inability to behave rationally (mentally ill, violent felons) have no business owning a weapon.

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                          • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                            Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
                            Just how many rounds of ammo do you think a typical law enforcement officer goes through at the practice range and in live fire exercises each year? Maybe you should look into it.
                            Maybe you should look into what kind of rounds are used to practice with and what kind are used to kill people. If you think hollow points are what you take the the shooting range than you have a long way to go in educating yourself on the topic before you speak on it again.

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                            • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                              Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
                              Except it's not a choice between all guns or no guns. All rights come with limitations and restrictions. If felons can be prevented from owning any gun then requiring background checks and registration or even prohibiting a whole class of firearms is not in violation of the constitution.
                              To infringe - to encroach on a right or privilege. It appears to me that the gun control nuts don't realize that the second amendment has been encroached already by many of the existing laws. Any more gun control is draconian and has the purpose of gradually reaching the point at which private ownership of firearms will ultimately banned for all but the police and the military.

                              Most of us are not asking that the existing gun control at the federal level be rolled back, but we are saying, NO MORE.

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                              • Re: Here it comes - federal registration of gun owners

                                Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
                                Except it's not a choice between all guns or no guns. All rights come with limitations and restrictions. If felons can be prevented from owning any gun then requiring background checks and registration or even prohibiting a whole class of firearms is not in violation of the constitution.
                                The right to keep and bear arms shall not be "infringed." That means limited, regulated, controlled, etc.

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