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Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

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  • #31
    Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

    Originally posted by CharlesD View Post
    And I firmly believe an armed populace is key to reducing the probability of a tyrannical government.
    Neat!

    Now, I can list numerous examples of civil liberties being infringed upon by the federal government over the last couple of decades, under both Democratic and Republican administrations... all of which occurred while you clung confidently to your firearms, convinced they would save you from a tyrannical government. But so far, the hundreds of millions of guns in private haven't had the slightest effect in maintaining our civil liberties (except, perhaps, in allowing you to keep your firearms).

    Why not?

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #32
      Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

      Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
      ....snipped for relevance..... But so far, the hundreds of millions of guns in private haven't had the slightest effect in maintaining our civil liberties (except, perhaps, in allowing you to keep your firearms).
      Why not?
      Oh? How do you know that there have not been instances when our government would have become tyrannical but for the well armed civilian populace? (And the well armed organized militia)

      Any answer pro or con is purely conjecture.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #33
        Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

        Originally posted by Jihad4Beer View Post
        Want to kill somebody? Can't do that.
        Because it infringes on the rights of another

        Originally posted by Jihad4Beer View Post
        Want to rape somebody? Can't do that.
        Because it infringes on the rights of another.

        Originally posted by Jihad4Beer View Post
        Want to steal? Can't do that.
        Because it infringes on the rights of another.

        Originally posted by Jihad4Beer View Post
        Want to dispose of your used motor oil in a river? Can't do that.
        Not as clear, but you're infringing on the rights of those down river.

        Originally posted by Jihad4Beer View Post
        Want to sell crack? Can't do that.
        And that is bullshit.

        Originally posted by Jihad4Beer View Post
        Want to drive drunk and impair your ability to drive and possibly kill other motorists? Can't do that.
        You'd be infringing on the rights of another.


        None of the examples you're attempting to counter do what yours do.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #34
          Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

          Originally posted by CharlesD View Post
          Yes, this society is oppressive, to a point. And sometimes that point is totally unnecessary. The government should be there to insure that if we try to exercise a liberty beyond what is the purview of another we have erred.

          Beyond that, so long as we do not encroach on the rights of any other individual we should have that liberty.

          Important to that point is, we should be allowed to keep all of the money we earn beyond what it takes the government to accomplish all of the constitutionally authorized activities and the government should be held strictly to the limits of the 10th amendment.
          Yeah, but to cite issues that are petty and trivial as examples of the tyranny of the US govt is ridiculous.

          It is like what comedian Louis CK calls, "white people in America problems".

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #35
            Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

            Originally posted by CharlesD View Post
            Oh? How do you know that there have not been instances when our government would have become tyrannical but for the well armed civilian populace? (And the well armed organized militia)
            Can you name of some of those instances?

            Any answer pro or con is purely conjecture.
            Only in the most technical sense of not being able to prove a negative. I cannot prove that there have not been instances when our government would have become tyrannical but for the consumers of low-fat yogurt, either.

            But for your point to be valid, you would need some examples of, say, the government wanting to (for example) assassinate an American citizen abroad without any judicial oversight... gun owners getting angry in response... and the government changing its mind. Otherwise, you are simply arguing that sometimes, the mere idea of guns existing has somehow had a powerful, yet non-demonstrable effect, which isn't much of an argument.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #36
              Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

              Originally posted by Agentorange View Post
              It's just that there seems to have been a lack of freedom loving, rifle wielding steely eyed Americans rising up and preventing these things. Which begs the question...if not for these things then when ?
              It seems an odd point when one group was specifically prohibited by law from owning firearms, another had no real way of obtaining them aside from trade with the people who were killing them, and the third was an extremely small part of the country that didn't seem to be particularly well armed.

              A better discussion might revolve around just how easily Europe conquered the unarmed world.

              I personally view the Second Amendment as being most effective as a matter of principle. It seems to be the last frontier, where millions of Americans will stand together and tell the government "No!". We cede rights every day but at least we can look at the right to bear arms and acknowledge that we have ceded those rights voluntarily and will take them back if we choose to. I believe it is the ceding of all rights to that government that has made Europe ripe for oppressive fascist, socialist, etc. governments.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #37
                Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

                Originally posted by Whipple View Post
                We cede rights every day but at least we can look at the right to bear arms and acknowledge that we have ceded those rights voluntarily and will take them back if we choose to.
                Hmm. So if I understand this argument correctly, it is that the same people who voluntarily ceded their rights today are going to take up arms tomorrow to demand them back?

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #38
                  Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

                  Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
                  Can you name of some of those instances?



                  Only in the most technical sense of not being able to prove a negative. I cannot prove that there have not been instances when our government would have become tyrannical but for the consumers of low-fat yogurt, either.

                  But for your point to be valid, you would need some examples of, say, the government wanting to (for example) assassinate an American citizen abroad without any judicial oversight... gun owners getting angry in response... and the government changing its mind. Otherwise, you are simply arguing that sometimes, the mere idea of guns existing has somehow had a powerful, yet non-demonstrable effect, which isn't much of an argument.
                  Nope, I don't need to give an example for my point to be valid because the very fact that so many Americans are armed may well have prevented the tyranny they were authorized by the 2nd amendment to preclude. (BTW, I don't consider assassinating a citizen who is a danger to our society to be specifically tyrannical with or without judicial oversight)

                  The fact is, you can no more prove nothing would have happened than I can prove something would have happened.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #39
                    Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

                    Originally posted by CharlesD View Post
                    Nope, I don't need to give an example for my point to be valid because the very fact that so many Americans are armed may well have prevented the tyranny they were authorized by the 2nd amendment to preclude.
                    So... no examples. Gotcha.

                    (BTW, I don't consider assassinating a citizen who is a danger to our society to be specifically tyrannical with or without judicial oversight)
                    OK, so if the government having the uncontested right to kill American citizens without oversight (much less a trial) is perfectly OK with you, what, pray tell, would qualify as tyrannical?

                    The fact is, you can no more prove nothing would have happened than I can prove something would have happened.
                    Again, technically correct. Just like you cannot prove that low-fat yogurt consumers have not prevented the United States from turning into Nazi, Germany. But it's not much of an argument.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #40
                      Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

                      Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
                      Hmm. So if I understand this argument correctly, it is that the same people who voluntarily ceded their rights today are going to take up arms tomorrow to demand them back?
                      That wasn't really what I meant.

                      I see the Second Amendment more of a psychological reminder to the government that it is the American people who are in charge. It is a specific area, one that usually crosses party lines, where the people acknowledge there is a clear end to the government's power. Despite the Civil War, I think it is the rigid refusal to compromise too heavily on the Second Amendment that prevents having a situation where the people will need to take up arms against the government.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #41
                        Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

                        Originally posted by Whipple View Post
                        That wasn't really what I meant.
                        Fair enough. My apologies.

                        I see the Second Amendment more of a psychological reminder to the government that it is the American people who are in charge. It is a specific area, one that usually crosses party lines, where the people acknowledge there is a clear end to the government's power. Despite the Civil War, I think it is the rigid refusal to compromise too heavily on the Second Amendment that prevents having a situation where the people will need to take up arms against the government.
                        I appreciate the clarification, although in reality, I don't think gun ownership has made any difference in the erosion of our civil liberties... with the possible exception of gun ownership itself. I have heard it said that the 2nd Amendment protects all other rights... but it is my view that the 2nd Amendment merely protects the 2nd Amendment.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #42
                          Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

                          Originally posted by AdamKadmon View Post
                          So... no examples. Gotcha.
                          Actually you "don't got nothing." Of course there are no examples, and to suggest there would be is really quite naive of you.

                          OK, so if the government having the uncontested right to kill American citizens without oversight (much less a trial) is perfectly OK with you, what, pray tell, would qualify as tyrannical?
                          Of all the departments of the US government I trust, the CIA which would likely be the tool of assination, rank high on the list right behind the US Military.

                          Again, technically correct. Just like you cannot prove that low-fat yogurt consumers have not prevented the United States from turning into Nazi, Germany. But it's not much of an argument.
                          In fact my argument is absolutely as strong as yours and your obvious attempt to belittle my opinion is noted.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #43
                            Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

                            Originally posted by ericams2786 View Post
                            So here's the point in the form of a question: Which one has the best chance of stopping a tyrannical government, an armed or an unarmed populace?
                            I've read all of your comments in this thread and I pretty much agree with everything you've been saying, so don't take this as an attack.

                            But given everything that you've said, what makes you think that either an armed or unarmed citizenry has any chance at all?

                            If we are currently an armed citizenry and our federal government is already tyrannical where is the logic that says an armed citizenry is a check against a government becoming tyrannical? Clearly, by logical necessity, an armed citizenry does not prevent tyranny.

                            It seems to me that you're making the exact same mistake that the critics/opponents of gun ownership make and conflating the simple existence/availability of guns with some undesired/desired outcome.

                            They say, "It's the guns causing all the violence. Take the guns and we'll be safe".

                            We say, "Guns don't kill people. People kill people".

                            You're saying, "It's the guns that prevent tyranny. Leave us our guns and we'll be free".

                            Likewise, guns don't prevent tyranny. People prevent tyranny.

                            We could have all the guns in the world and without people who have the will to risk everything in the use of those guns they're essentially little more than Constitutionally guaranteed paperweights.

                            And quite clearly, especially in light of the developments of the last decade and a half, we as a people, though there is an outlying minority, have absolutely no will to hold the government to account as it grasps for more and more of our rights and liberties.

                            I would argue that you, as a gun owner, are no more a threat to the federal government than you are to the elementary school down the road.

                            You have a gun but you won't use it in the face of a government that snatches more and more liberty from the citizenry every day.

                            So what use are you? What have you done to deserve the right to own that gun (understanding that while you may consider that right to be "natural" you actually only have it because it's been codified into our charter which can be amended if enough people feel that it isn't really a natural right at all)?

                            If you won't use it for the reasons our founders guaranteed you ownership, but other folks are using theirs to kill kids, wouldn't we be safer, as a society, to strip all the guns from the citizenry?

                            Our liberties aren't being defended by those who profess to own guns as a check against the erosion of our liberties.

                            Our kids are being killed by those who own guns to hurt people.

                            Seems like kind of a no brainer.
                            Last edited by soot; 01-04-2013, 01:23 PM.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #44
                              Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

                              Great point, soot. Guns, IMO, are but a tool to help us prevent/fight tyranny; a tool the founders firmly believed we should have at our disposal.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?


                              • #45
                                Re: Does a well armed populace prevent tyrannical government ?

                                Originally posted by CharlesD View Post
                                Actually you "don't got nothing." Of course there are no examples, and to suggest there would be is really quite naive of you.
                                Why would that be naive? For instance, if you asked me if I could come up with any examples of lawsuits being used to protect civil liberties, I'd have no problem coming up with them.

                                Of all the departments of the US government I trust, the CIA which would likely be the tool of assination, rank high on the list right behind the US Military.
                                This is a truly astonishing statement (especially since you are implicitly entrusting the Obama administration as well).

                                But you never did answer my question: If you are perfectly OK with American citizens being assassinated by the government without oversight or judicial review (but only, to be fair, if it is done by a clandestine group working in the shadows), what in your mind does constitute tyranny?

                                In fact my argument is absolutely as strong as yours and your obvious attempt to belittle my opinion is noted.
                                Your argument, as I understand it, is: Guns protect our rights... except for all the rights it didn't protect... and I have no examples of this occurring... but you can't prove that it doesn't. Is that a fair summation?

                                מה מכילות החדשות?

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