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Constitutional Gun Control?

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  • Re: Constitutional Gun Control?

    Originally posted by Abatis View Post
    Why did my answer to you get whacked?

    Is that a debate tactic for the mod squad here?
    I have no idea what you are talking about. Nothing in this thread has been deleted.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: Constitutional Gun Control?

      Something's going wonky as the page count is buggered as well.

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      • Re: Constitutional Gun Control?

        Not one of your wiki links indicates that any rights have been surrendered by the citizens of this country.

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        • Re: Constitutional Gun Control?

          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
          Not one of your wiki links indicates that any rights have been surrendered by the citizens of this country.
          Seriously?

          From where do the powers enumerated in the Constitution come from?

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: Constitutional Gun Control?

            Originally posted by Abatis View Post
            I recoil at the thought that the most fundamental principles of the federal constitution need to be explained.
            What is the alternative, that people are born with understanding such principles? I once had to have letters explained. LOL

            Originally posted by Abatis View Post
            From where do the powers enumerated in the Constitution come from?
            From the people of the States who ratified the Constitution.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Re: Constitutional Gun Control?

              Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
              What is the alternative, that people are born with understanding such principles? I once had to have letters explained. LOL
              My statement was an indictment of civics instruction in this nation.



              Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
              From the people of the States who ratified the Constitution.
              My question was rhetorical.

              Read back in the conversation between OldmanDan and myself . . .

              I understand and embrace Lockean principles; OldmanDan denies them.

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              • Re: Constitutional Gun Control?

                Originally posted by Abatis View Post
                Well, there was a 75 year diversion, created in the lower federal courts that cut the right to arms from the constitutional tree.

                Heller slapped those lower federal courts back into the constitutional fold and now, the right to arms will enjoy the expansion it deserves by the invalidation of hundreds if not thousands of gun control laws that were sustained using the now invalid 'militia right" and "state's right" and general "collective right" interpretations.
                Can you expand on the 75 year diversion? And I have no idea what expansion you might be talking about.

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                • Re: Constitutional Gun Control?

                  Originally posted by jet57 View Post
                  Can you expand on the 75 year diversion? And I have no idea what expansion you might be talking about.
                  I believe he was talking about years of lower court rulings that did not accept the interpretation that individuals had the right to keep and bear arms. Those rulings allowed many cities to make laws banning guns all together.

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                  • Re: Constitutional Gun Control?

                    Originally posted by Abatis View Post
                    Seriously?

                    From where do the powers enumerated in the Constitution come from?
                    God/Creator

                    Read the Declaration of Independence. Just in case you don't.

                    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

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                    • Re: Constitutional Gun Control?

                      Originally posted by jet57 View Post
                      Can you expand on the 75 year diversion? And I have no idea what expansion you might be talking about.
                      First off, 75 is a typo, I meant 65 . . . It refers to when the "collective / militia / state's right" interpretations were inserted in the federal courts (1942) and when the reasoning of those two initial lower federal court decisions were invalidated (2008).

                      The two cases that birthed the collective right followed the 1939 SCOTUS opinion of US v Miller.

                      Cases v. U.S, 131 F.2d 916 (1 st Cir. 1942) LINK (40KB pdf) in particular recognized what Miller held . . .



                      " . . . if the rule of the Miller case is general and complete, the result would follow that, under present day conditions, the federal government would be empowered only to regulate the possession or use of weapons such as a flintlock musket or a matchlock harquebus. But to hold that the Second Amendment limits the federal government to regulations concerning only weapons which can be classed as antiques or curiosities,-- almost any other might bear some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia unit of the present day,-- is in effect to hold that the limitation of the Second Amendment is absolute. Another objection to the rule of the Miller case as a full and general statement is that according to it Congress would be prevented by the Second Amendment from regulating the possession or use by private persons not present or prospective members of any military unit, of distinctly military arms, such as machine guns, trench mortars, anti-tank or anti-aircraft guns, . . . "



                      and then used that histrionic analysis to allow it to dismiss and ignore SCOTUS to insert the "militia right" into the federal courts (without any legal justification).

                      U.S. v. Tot, 131 F.2d 261 (3 rd Cir. 1942) LINK (52KB pdf) established the "state's right" tangent into the federal courts. Together they formed a constitutionally incorrect direction for the 2nd Amendment in the courts of the USA and formed an illegitimate foundation for many later federal decisions (and even more state court decisions, e.g., Burton v Sills in New Jersey):

                      Here is a list of all federal collective right opinions (including Tot and Cases). With Tot and Cases being invalidated by Heller, all these subsequent cases (and state decisions too) that cite Tot and/or Cases or utilize the "collective right" reasoning, are infirm and very open to challenge (thus invalidating the laws these decisions affirmed):

                      US Circuits: (15)

                      United States v. Chavez, 204 F.3d 1305 (11th Cir. 2000);

                      U.S. v. Baker, 197 F.3d 211 (6th Cir. 1999);

                      San Diego County Gun Rights Comm. v. Reno, 98 F.3d 1121 (9th Cir. 1996);

                      Hickman v. Block, 81 F.3d 98 (9th Cir. 1996);

                      U.S. v. Farrell, 69 F.3d 891 (8th Cir. 1995);

                      Love v. Peppersack, 47 F.3d 120 (4th Cir. 1995);

                      U.S. v. Hale, 978 F.2d 1016 (8th Cir. 1992);

                      Quilici v. Morton Grove, 695 F.2d 261 (7th Cir. 1982);

                      U.S. v. Oakes, 564 F.2d 384 (10th Cir. 1977);

                      U.S. v. Wilbur, 545 F.2d 764 (1st Cir. 1976);

                      U.S. v. Warin, 530 F.2d 103 (6th Cir. 1976);

                      U.S. v. Johnson, 497 F.2d 548 (4th Cir. 1974);

                      Cody v. U.S., 460 F.2d 34 (8th Cir. 1972);

                      Cases v. U.S., 131 F.2d 916 (1st Cir. 1942);

                      U.S. v. Tot, 131 F.2d 261 (3rd Cir. 1942).



                      District Courts of Appeals: (18)


                      U.S. v. Spruill, 61 F. Supp. 2d 587 (W.D. Tex. 1999);

                      U.S. v. Henson, 55 F. Supp. 2d 528(S.D. W. Va. 1999);

                      Gillespie v. City of Indianapolis, 13 F. Supp. 2d 811 (S.D. Ind. 1998);

                      Anderson v. U.S., 1998 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 7107 (N.D. Ill. 1998);

                      U.S. v. Caron, 941 F. Supp. 238 (Dist. Ct. Mass. 1996);

                      Barsch v. Brann, 1996 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 6822 (N.D. Ca. 1996);

                      Luka v. Douglas, 1995 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 21538 (N.D. Miss. 1995);

                      White v. Town of Chapel Hill, 899 F. Supp. 1428 (M.D. N.C. 1995);

                      Pencak v. Concealed Weapon Licensing Bd., 872 F. Supp. 410 (E.D. Mich. 1994);

                      Moyer v. Sec'y of the Treasury, 830 F. Supp. 516 (W.D. Mo. 1993);

                      Levy v. Abate, 1993 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 9231 (S.D.N.Y. 1993);

                      Behre v. Thomas, 665 F. Supp. 89 (Dist. Ct. N.H. 1987);

                      Thompson v. Dreta, 549 F. Supp. 297 (Dist. Ct. Utah 1982);

                      Engblom v. Carey, 522 F. Supp. 57 (S.D.N.Y. 1981), revd in part 677 F.2d 957 (2d Cir. 1982);

                      U.S. v. Three Winchester 30-30 Caliber Lever Action Carbines, 363 F. Supp. 322 (E.D. Wis. 1973);

                      Eckert v. Pennsylvania, 331 F. Supp. 1361 (E.D. Pa. 1971);

                      Klinger v. Erickson, 328 F. Supp. 674 (Dist. Ct. S.D. 1971);

                      Wainwright v. U.S., 289 F. Supp. 820 (E.D. Tenn. 1968).


                      Note, no dates earlier than 1942 . . . That is the birth year of the "collective / militia / state's right" interpretation in the federal courts.

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