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Poor farmers can't find workers in Alabama...

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  • Re: Poor farmers can't find workers in Alabama...

    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
    Hey, I never maintained the business owner should settle for peanuts. And there is some middle ground here. It is possible for the workers to make a living wage, while the owner is making much more than a living wage. Wealth is always relative, in one economy the rich could be milliionaires, while in another, the rich could be billionaires.

    The owners, the corporations, the banks, used to be profitable, and owners and such got rich, while enlarging and substaining the middle class. But once these people start seeking to maximize profits, by foreign cheap labor and other means that hurt the middle, well, this is the other way to distribute wealth, favorable to the top. This has always been a choice, formed by policy.
    Blue here's how it works, the owner, risk taker, the one that worked hard and saved and invested in him / herself and prospered, they get the reward of their efforts. Now take the worker, (employee) he sets his / her worth by what they will accept for their services. Now if a business owner needs an employee, he can offer what he feels he can afford and is reasonable for the work being requested. The first person through the door turns down the offer, second person through the door same thing. Third person takes the job. That is the market price for the work requested. Now in times of a shortage of workers thy can raise their price for doing the work. You know it's no different for the owner selling his products or the employee selling their labor. Supply and demand moves prices.

    Now I would suggest that if our borders were closed we would not have all those illegals running around driving labor prices down. Thus making for a high supply of labor which is a benefit to employers. This is policy by government and it is the liberal government that wants an open border. The owners of businesses weed themselves out by competition, the strong survive and the weak go broke. Now you can say we should have had policies in place so the owners could not outsource, but then you leave the border open, what BS. You fail to bring yourself up to today's world

    In any business that has employees will try to treat them the best they can to keep good employees, but beyond that they have no responsibility, employees are on their own to do with as they please with any funds they earn and they can always quit if they are not satisfied with their employment.

    Last I would say that the tech industry has made more millionaires and billionaires then any other industry. This all happened from 1970. Microsoft has made more millions than any company in the world, yes this is a US company making employees millionaires. What you don't want to realize is these are a different kind of worker than you are used too. Your of the old factory type worker, times have changed.

    This is my reply to Goober, which you may have read

    "Sorry Goober but it is you that continually embarrass yourself, accumulation of wealth is a great sign of prosperity. Lets just take one industry, the tech industry, from 1970 it has created more wealth and jobs for more people than any other in history. In the last 40 yrs the tech industry has created more millionaires and billionaires than any other. Now instead of going to the library, or maybe you should and look up all the tech companies that started in the last 40 yrs and try as you might figure out how much wealth these companies have created.

    Now just because you are not a recipient of that wealth you bitch like hell and say our economic system is broken, and it's not functioning, I would say based on the results of all the wealth the tech industry has created over the last 40 years it is functioning quite will.

    Then you go on to say a great concentration of wealth is a sure sign of major inefficiencies. Now I would say just the opposite, the tech industry which has created such a mass of wealth has created efficiencies. Take this forum, and your little computer and how efficient you are now being able to communicate like never before. That is as efficient as it get.

    The world has evolved, today there are more white collar jobs than ever before, not because of outsourcing. But because of the tech industry, the tech industry has made us a world player never seen before in history, it has change the world we live in and as a result of that change it has created an enormous amount in wealth for many people. However these are not factory workers being on the receiving end of this wealth, the recipients of this wealth are a new kind of worker. It's the kind of worker you can not relate too. If it's not a factory worker, you have no clue. Unfortunately you live in the past and have no idea how our country has changed for the better. Are there winners and losers, sure, but that is how it has been from the beginning of time.

    Take the farmers this past yr. they have broken all records in profit making. But not all farmers made these fortunes because their crops got flooded out or wind stricken so they lost out and as a result it was another farmers gain. It is economics you don't understand."
    Last edited by Forplay; 12-26-2011, 01:01 PM.

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    • Re: Poor farmers can't find workers in Alabama...

      Originally posted by Forplay View Post
      Blue here's how it works, the owner, risk taker, the one that worked hard and saved and invested in him / herself and prospered, they get the reward of their efforts. Now take the worker, (employee) he sets his / her worth by what they will accept for their services. Now if a business owner needs an employee, he can offer what he feels he can afford and is reasonable for the work being requested. The first person through the door turns down the offer, second person through the door same thing. Third person takes the job. That is the market price for the work requested. Now in times of a shortage of workers thy can raise their price for doing the work. You know it's no different for the owner selling his products or the employee selling their labor. Supply and demand moves prices.

      Now I would suggest that if our borders were closed we would not have all those illegals running around driving labor prices down. Thus making for a high supply of labor which is a benefit to employers. This is policy by government and it is the liberal government that wants an open border. The owners of businesses weed themselves out by competition, the strong survive and the weak go broke. Now you can say we should have had policies in place so the owners could not outsource, but then you leave the border open, what BS. You fail to bring yourself up to today's world

      In any business that has employees will try to treat them the best they can to keep good employees, but beyond that they have no responsibility, employees are own their own to do with as they please with any funds they earn and they can always quit if they are not satisfied with their employment.

      This is my reply to Goober, which you may have read

      "Sorry Goober but it is you that continually embarrass yourself, accumulation of wealth is a great sign of prosperity. Lets just take one industry, the tech industry, from 1970 it has created more wealth and jobs for more people than any other in history. In the last 40 yrs the tech industry has created more millionaires and billionaires than any other. Now instead of going to the library, or maybe you should and look up all the tech companies that started in the last 40 yrs and try as you might figure out how much wealth these companies have created.

      Now just because you are not a recipient of that wealth you bitch like hell and say our economic system is broken, and it's not functioning, I would say based on the results of all the wealth the tech industry has created over the last 40 years it is functioning quite will.

      Then you go on to say a great concentration of wealth is a sure sign of major inefficiencies. Now I would say just the opposite, the tech industry which has created such a mass of wealth has created efficiencies. Take this forum, and your little computer and how efficient you are now being able to communicate like never before. That is as efficient as it get.

      The world has evolved, today there are more white collar jobs than ever before, not because of outsourcing. But because of the tech industry, the tech industry has made us a world player never seen before in history, it has change the world we live in and as a result of that change it has created an enormous amount in wealth for many people. However these are not factory workers being on the receiving end of this wealth, the recipients of this wealth are a new kind of worker. It's the kind of worker you can not relate too. If it's not a factory worker, you have no clue. Unfortunately you live in the past and have no idea how our country has changed for the better. Are there winners and losers, sure, but that is how it has been from the beginning of time.

      Take the farmers this past yr. they have broken all records in profit making. But not all farmers made these fortunes because their crops got flooded out or wind stricken so they lost out and as a result it was another farmers gain. It is economics you don't understand."
      Lets take another example, one that I am real familiar with. An industry has set the wages for their workers, and since the owners of this industry have met and agreed upon not undercutting the other, in order that all owners might max out their profits by minimizing labor costs. They will find workers for those jobs, although many may walk out the door to seek higher pay elsewhere. The industry will call these wages the "industry average" to make it easier to swallow. This manner of doing business is more common than anyone would admit. I actually saw it at work, not only in my own industry, but others as well.

      Let us say that there are millions out of work, and the unemployment runs out. An employer's paradise. Now, those workers are desperate and will eventually take less, for what they used to get more for, siimply because they have to feed their kids, or they starve. A powerful motivation indeed. This too is the free market, and it will not bring prosperity to the many. It will make the owners richer. This is how the real world works, outside of all of the theory.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Re: Poor farmers can't find workers in Alabama...

        Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
        Lets take another example, one that I am real familiar with. An industry has set the wages for their workers, and since the owners of this industry have met and agreed upon not undercutting the other, in order that all owners might max out their profits by minimizing labor costs. They will find workers for those jobs, although many may walk out the door to seek higher pay elsewhere. The industry will call these wages the "industry average" to make it easier to swallow. This manner of doing business is more common than anyone would admit. I actually saw it at work, not only in my own industry, but others as well.
        This my friend, what you just described is breaking the law. These businesses should have been prosecuted. That I believe they call "price fixing", "collusion." Of course I would never agree to such practice. All the examples I gave you were not practices against any laws.

        Let us say that there are millions out of work, and the unemployment runs out. An employer's paradise. Now, those workers are desperate and will eventually take less, for what they used to get more for, siimply because they have to feed their kids, or they starve. A powerful motivation indeed. This too is the free market, and it will not bring prosperity to the many. It will make the owners richer. This is how the real world works, outside of all of the theory.
        You have just described, supply and demand, no different than too many factories making the same product. Under that example factories are going out of business. Yes out of business and cutting their prices to try and stay alive. Businesses have exactly the same problems as workers.

        Now the answer to the problem of too many workers, is our government never wanted to close our borders to illegals driving down wages and increasing workers. There is story after story of illegals taking good American jobs, cooks, carpenters, plumbers, fishermen, ditch diggers, maids, house keepers, landscapers and the like. You've heard me bitch like hell that our government will not close our border, and in fact we have set up by liberals, sanctuary cities, other states have been sued by our liberal president to stop them implementing federal laws that are on the books. Now we have a liberal governor wanting to give illegals voting rights.

        To answer your statement in bold, kick out the illegals.

        Now maybe you have an answer to keeping all businesses from going broke? There is fierce competition among businesses, same as people lining up for the same job, but I don't hear any cry from you to provide a solution to keep businesses from going broke. Hell you can go down any Main St in the US and find store after store empty, out of business, many lost everything they had. How do these business owners that lost everything feed their kids?

        You liberals just think of the worker but never the business owner who has the exact same problem, but when the worker gets laid off he lost a job. When the business owner goes broke and closes his business he in many cases lost everything and not only that he also has no job.

        I swear you and Goober can't see out the factory window.

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        • Re: Poor farmers can't find workers in Alabama...

          Originally posted by Forplay View Post
          This my friend, what you just described is breaking the law. These businesses should have been prosecuted. That I believe they call "price fixing", "collusion." Of course I would never agree to such practice. All the examples I gave you were not practices against any laws.



          You have just described, supply and demand, no different than too many factories making the same product. Under that example factories are going out of business. Yes out of business and cutting their prices to try and stay alive. Businesses have exactly the same problems as workers.

          Now the answer to the problem of too many workers, is our government never wanted to close our borders to illegals driving down wages and increasing workers. There is story after story of illegals taking good American jobs, cooks, carpenters, plumbers, fishermen, ditch diggers, maids, house keepers, landscapers and the like. You've heard me bitch like hell that our government will not close our border, and in fact we have set up by liberals, sanctuary cities, other states have been sued by our liberal president to stop them implementing federal laws that are on the books. Now we have a liberal governor wanting to give illegals voting rights.

          To answer your statement in bold, kick out the illegals.

          Now maybe you have an answer to keeping all businesses from going broke? There is fierce competition among businesses, same as people lining up for the same job, but I don't hear any cry from you to provide a solution to keep businesses from going broke. Hell you can go down any Main St in the US and find store after store empty, out of business, many lost everything they had. How do these business owners that lost everything feed their kids?

          You liberals just think of the worker but never the business owner who has the exact same problem, but when the worker gets laid off he lost a job. When the business owner goes broke and closes his business he in many cases lost everything and not only that he also has no job.

          I swear you and Goober can't see out the factory window.
          The way you keep businesses from going broke is to reverse offshoring to communist cheap labor. Manufacturing is what made small business flourish, because of the disposable income that consumer good manufacturing used to provide. The trouble that small business has today is we have lost an income base, a very important one, so that corporations could move and not have to be involved in the free market, as it pertains to wages.

          It is illegal, as you said, but it has been prolific. The real world doesn't live up to conservative ideology. You are not realists.

          I owned my own small manufacturing business, which I talked about when I first arrived here. There is not much you can tell me about how this works. I could tell you some true stories about business that you probably would not believe. None of those people are in jail, as most never get caught. The state has a way of turning a blind eye, pressured by special business interest. The world is a real dirty place. Humans, especially those with money, can be totally trusted, in everything except words and deeds.
          Last edited by Blue Doggy; 12-26-2011, 07:38 PM.

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          • Re: Poor farmers can't find workers in Alabama...

            [QUOTE]
            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
            The way you keep businesses from going broke is to reverse offshoring to communist cheap labor.
            Are you kidding me, that is how they survive. From going broke and losing everything. But that does not bother you, let them go broke and lose everything.

            Manufacturing is what made small business flourish, because of the disposable income that consumer good manufacturing used to provide. The trouble that small business has today is we have lost an income base, a very important one, so that corporations could move and not have to be involved in the free market, as it pertains to wages.
            That is the old days of manufacturing, of which, you are old school of which would tell your kids to get a factory job to get ahead. Those day's are gone.
            It is illegal, as you said, but it has been prolific. The real world doesn't live up to conservative ideology. You are not realists.
            I don't care, illegal is illegal, and you can point to illegal operations all you want, but illegals crossing our border is still illegal.

            I owned my own small manufacturing business, which I talked about when I first arrived here. There is not much you can tell me about how this works. I could tell you some true stories about business that you probably would not believe. None of those people are in jail, as most never get caught. The state has a way of turning a blind eye, pressured by special business interest. The world is a real dirty place. Humans, especially those with money, can be totally trusted, in everything except words and deeds.
            Nor are the illegals that cross our borders daily. You always bitch about businesses but the reality is illegals cross our border daily, and guess what, nothing is done about them, none are in jail as you suggest business should be. In fact I repeat, it is the liberals that allow sanctuary cities for them to flourish, some liberals want them to be able to vote, and so on.

            So in closing, we have different views when it comes to labor and business.

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            • Re: Poor farmers can't find workers in Alabama...

              [QUOTE=Forplay;2017731]

              Are you kidding me, that is how they survive. From going broke and losing everything. But that does not bother you, let them go broke and lose everything.



              That is the old days of manufacturing, of which, you are old school of which would tell your kids to get a factory job to get ahead. Those day's are gone.


              I don't care, illegal is illegal, and you can point to illegal operations all you want, but illegals crossing our border is still illegal.



              Nor are the illegals that cross our borders daily. You always bitch about businesses but the reality is illegals cross our border daily, and guess what, nothing is done about them, none are in jail as you suggest business should be. In fact I repeat, it is the liberals that allow sanctuary cities for them to flourish, some liberals want them to be able to vote, and so on.

              So in closing, we have different views when it comes to labor and business.
              Lets get elementary here. Lets keep it simple and well within the realm of commons sense. Consumer good manufacturing as well as other manufacturing, provided the disposable income that created a demand for small business products and services. When consumer good manufacturing went to communist china, a major segment of american workers, became unemployed and almost as important, millions became underemployed. In a 250 mile radius from where I live, small business went under and closed their doors in hordes. Common sense SHOULD explain why these small businesses closed doors. This is an observable fact. Most new businesses in my area, that would qualify as a business are additions to chains, retail chains like Family Dollar Store, or fast food chains. If we still had our numerous factories here, these small businesses would be flourishing, with even more being added. Plus we would have all other sorts of stores spring up, as those factory jobs paid living wages, from lower middle class to middle middle class wages.

              And I disagree that the days of america making what it consumes are gone. That is the current situation, but this is not substainable, as long as we have a consumption based economy. A consumption based economy that has a middle class cannot over the long haul substain that middle. The social unrest that is in our future will force gov't to once again "manage" our economy by the way of taxation, economic policy and trade policy. This little experiment will end, and we will come to our senses, being forced to do so by great social unrest.

              I don't think many really understand that we are in the most dangerous times we have ever been in. This house of cards will tumble, and only then will we get some sanity back on how america's economy is to operate.
              t

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              • Re: Poor farmers can't find workers in Alabama...

                Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                Lets get elementary here. Lets keep it simple and well within the realm of commons sense. Consumer good manufacturing as well as other manufacturing, provided the disposable income that created a demand for small business products and services. When consumer good manufacturing went to communist china, a major segment of american workers, became unemployed and almost as important, millions became underemployed. In a 250 mile radius from where I live, small business went under and closed their doors in hordes. Common sense SHOULD explain why these small businesses closed doors. This is an observable fact. Most new businesses in my area, that would qualify as a business are additions to chains, retail chains like Family Dollar Store, or fast food chains. If we still had our numerous factories here, these small businesses would be flourishing, with even more being added. Plus we would have all other sorts of stores spring up, as those factory jobs paid living wages, from lower middle class to middle middle class wages.
                Blue, I agree as our country evolves, there are always winners and losers. But the important thing here is our country from day one is continuously evolving. When Ford started making cars the horse trade went in the thank, but those workers were reemployed with Ford. From 1970 the computer, internet, cell phones, GPS, sat TV, cable TV, iPods, smart phones, etc etc have put millions of people to works of which you never speak about. This is a natural evolving society that has to adjust to current times. We have never been stood still, and we have been adapting for thousands of years. The problem with you is your stuck in the factory and can not see past it. I go down the street and see companies like Qualcomm, Apple, Intel, Dell, Microsoft, Sun Micro Systems, etc etc. These companies never existed before the 70's.

                And I disagree that the days of america making what it consumes are gone. That is the current situation, but this is not substainable, as long as we have a consumption based economy. A consumption based economy that has a middle class cannot over the long haul substain that middle. The social unrest that is in our future will force gov't to once again "manage" our economy by the way of taxation, economic policy and trade policy. This little experiment will end, and we will come to our senses, being forced to do so by great social unrest.
                Of course it is sustainable, all that has changed is we're making different stuff than we did 40 yrs ago. And the work force has changed.

                I don't think many really understand that we are in the most dangerous times we have ever been in. This house of cards will tumble, and only then will we get some sanity back on how america's economy is to operate.
                The problems I see is the liberals will not drill baby drill, and they will not close our borders. Our economy is in the hands of Oil Lords of which we send 500 billion a yr to them and all the jobs that go with it. We outsource right here at home millions of jobs to illegals. Now you open up our lands to exploration and close our border, we will not have enough workers to keep up. There are many other liberal policies that are killing jobs but the two I mentioned will get America back up and running. And I almost forgot one, the Keystone project that you liberals killed. So when you bitch about factories I don't have an ear to listen.

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                • Re: Poor farmers can't find workers in Alabama...

                  Originally posted by Forplay View Post
                  Blue, I agree as our country evolves, there are always winners and losers. But the important thing here is our country from day one is continuously evolving. When Ford started making cars the horse trade went in the thank, but those workers were reemployed with Ford. From 1970 the computer, internet, cell phones, GPS, sat TV, cable TV, iPods, smart phones, etc etc have put millions of people to works of which you never speak about. This is a natural evolving society that has to adjust to current times. We have never been stood still, and we have been adapting for thousands of years. The problem with you is your stuck in the factory and can not see past it. I go down the street and see companies like Qualcomm, Apple, Intel, Dell, Microsoft, Sun Micro Systems, etc etc. These companies never existed before the 70's.



                  Of course it is sustainable, all that has changed is we're making different stuff than we did 40 yrs ago. And the work force has changed.



                  The problems I see is the liberals will not drill baby drill, and they will not close our borders. Our economy is in the hands of Oil Lords of which we send 500 billion a yr to them and all the jobs that go with it. We outsource right here at home millions of jobs to illegals. Now you open up our lands to exploration and close our border, we will not have enough workers to keep up. There are many other liberal policies that are killing jobs but the two I mentioned will get America back up and running. And I almost forgot one, the Keystone project that you liberals killed. So when you bitch about factories I don't have an ear to listen.

                  Of course the economy changes, with new inventions, new innovations, etc. I do not ignore that at all. If we were still making our pots and pans, our toaster ovens, our microwaves, our tvs....hell the list is damn near endless, PLUS all of the new inventions, as we used to do before corporations were allowed to offshore the manufacture of these consumer goods, our middle class would have expanded, instead of shrunk. An economy based upon consumption, such as ours is, but that no longer makes what we consume is a flawed model, if you are wanting to expand the middle and prosperity. All of these new inventions, if made here as we did with the radios, the tv sets, etc, would have kept prosperity alive here in america. Afterall, us making our new inventions is what helped to create such a large middle to begin with. And never forget, that when we did make our own consumption, we could have made those goods in areas of cheap labor, thereby shipping off american jobs in the process. Yet our leaders did not succumb to the demands of big business, only because our consumption based economy was based upon us making what we consumed, in order to help to build the middle and bring prosperity to a people who had suffered the great depression, and ww2. We were consciously trying to enlarge the middle, instead of concentrating on maxing out owner profits. This is the big change that the cons brought when they came back into rule. This is the big picture which is being ignored, or dismissed, and there is a concerted effort by politicians, by business, and by the big corporate owned media to insure this.

                  Manufacturing will never be moot. It will always be of the upmost importance, and if your economy is based upon consumption, and yet do not make these goods, this has huge ramifications within that society. You will shrink the middle. You will take away a ladder up for the poor. And this will lead to grave consequences, which you will see, and continue to see as it worsens.

                  The lust for higher profits with cheap labor is not substainable, because millions of humans here will suffer because of this. It is self destructing, for business to indulge, over the long haul. It will eventually shrink the consumer market, which supports these offshored businesses. Because if you take away the very thing that helped to create this huge consumer market here in america, manufacturing of consumer goods, from forks to electronics, and replace it with lower paying service sector work, you are doing the opposite of what helped to create the large middle to begin with. Unless of course, you can show me where a service based economy has created such a large middle class and substained it the way that consumer good manufacturing did. In the past, our service industry was viable because we had the consumer good manufacturing base to support it.

                  No, you guys, you free traders seem to be incapable of seeing the big picture, the importance of a consumption based economy that also makes what is consumed, or as much of it as possible. This formulae helped to create our huge middle class, and if you take that away, you end up with the grand mess you see today in the unemployment, but just as important the underemployment rates. This is the price paid for offshoring to max out owner profits. Nothing is on the horizon that can replace consumer good manufacturing. Manufacturing what you consume was, and is the key to prosperity for the majority. That will never change, unless you got an economic magic wand that negates the intrinsic importance of manufacturing. When I can envison a day when manufacturing is no longer done, we no longer consume, only then will I say manufacturing has no importance to a healthy economy, a healthy middle.

                  This stuff is just so much common sense that it is surreal that few can see the truth of this matter. Yet the propaganda is so prolific in favor of offshoring, and you hear no one in the media placing the blame to where it belongs, while the rest of us just buy into what we have been told. These people are lying to you, and many of us have neither the common sense or intelligence to see the truth of the matter. Or if we do, we simply think that if we allow business to max profits by offshoring consumer good production, this will work much better than our old model did. Yet there is no proof for that. We are experimenting, with the middle class, the one that will feel the consequences of this experiment. This new economic model will devastate the middle, as you will eventually see. Whether you ignore that devastation is the question here. My money says that some die hard cons will of course ignore it, or justify it, by placing the blame on the middle, instead of where it actually belongs. But some of us will realize the basic fact about a capitalistic economic model. We can create large middle classes or max out owner profits with cheap foreign labor. We cannot do both at the same time. It is one or the other, and you guys cannot comprehend this basic truth of capitalism. This is the big picture. I am puzzled as to how we have forgotten this truth that was well known in earlier times, and upon which our post ww2 model was based upon. How did we all go stupid, in a few decades? The answer is a lack of education and the propaganda, that utilizes the propensity of human nature. You divide, then you conquer. We are divided, and the middle will be conquered, until americans finally get enough of this corporate globalization that is destroying our middle, and adding more into poverty, all in order to max out the profits of the elites. It is the same old story, with a new name. But you guys just don't get it, or just don't care, because of an inane ideology, that is not workable, if you want a middle.

                  I am not what is a new liberal. I am an old one, the sort that tried to create history's largest middle class. I am for drilling. Especially given the dependence upon other folks oil. Just as long as that oil stays here. I am for the american worker, for the middle, and even for business making profits. What I am against is business maxing out profits by cheap foreign labor, and then be allowed to sell those goods back here, tariff free. I guess in my way of thinking, a business that makes its wealth from americans should give back to the nation, by employing the same folks that are buying their goods. Afterall, that was the key that helped create the middle class and our huge consumer market in the first place.
                  Last edited by Blue Doggy; 12-29-2011, 09:48 AM.

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                  • Re: Poor farmers can't find workers in Alabama...

                    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                    Of course the economy changes, with new inventions, new innovations, etc. I do not ignore that at all. If we were still making our pots and pans, our toaster ovens, our microwaves, our tvs....hell the list is damn near endless, PLUS all of the new inventions, as we used to do before corporations were allowed to offshore the manufacture of these consumer goods, our middle class would have expanded, instead of shrunk. An economy based upon consumption, such as ours is, but that no longer makes what we consume is a flawed model, if you are wanting to expand the middle and prosperity. All of these new inventions, if made here as we did with the radios, the tv sets, etc, would have kept prosperity alive here in america. Afterall, us making our new inventions is what helped to create such a large middle to begin with. And never forget, that when we did make our own consumption, we could have made those goods in areas of cheap labor, thereby shipping off american jobs in the process. Yet our leaders did not succumb to the demands of big business, only because our consumption based economy was based upon us making what we consumed, in order to help to build the middle and bring prosperity to a people who had suffered the great depression, and ww2. We were consciously trying to enlarge the middle, instead of concentrating on maxing out owner profits. This is the big change that the cons brought when they came back into rule. This is the big picture which is being ignored, or dismissed, and there is a concerted effort by politicians, by business, and by the big corporate owned media to insure this.

                    Manufacturing will never be moot. It will always be of the upmost importance, and if your economy is based upon consumption, and yet do not make these goods, this has huge ramifications within that society. You will shrink the middle. You will take away a ladder up for the poor. And this will lead to grave consequences, which you will see, and continue to see as it worsens.

                    The lust for higher profits with cheap labor is not substainable, because millions of humans here will suffer because of this. It is self destructing, for business to indulge, over the long haul. It will eventually shrink the consumer market, which supports these offshored businesses. Because if you take away the very thing that helped to create this huge consumer market here in america, manufacturing of consumer goods, from forks to electronics, and replace it with lower paying service sector work, you are doing the opposite of what helped to create the large middle to begin with. Unless of course, you can show me where a service based economy has created such a large middle class and substained it the way that consumer good manufacturing did. In the past, our service industry was viable because we had the consumer good manufacturing base to support it.

                    No, you guys, you free traders seem to be incapable of seeing the big picture, the importance of a consumption based economy that also makes what is consumed, or as much of it as possible. This formulae helped to create our huge middle class, and if you take that away, you end up with the grand mess you see today in the unemployment, but just as important the underemployment rates. This is the price paid for offshoring to max out owner profits. Nothing is on the horizon that can replace consumer good manufacturing. Manufacturing what you consume was, and is the key to prosperity for the majority. That will never change, unless you got an economic magic wand that negates the intrinsic importance of manufacturing. When I can envison a day when manufacturing is no longer done, we no longer consume, only then will I say manufacturing has no importance to a healthy economy, a healthy middle.

                    This stuff is just so much common sense that it is surreal that few can see the truth of this matter. Yet the propaganda is so prolific in favor of offshoring, and you hear no one in the media placing the blame to where it belongs, while the rest of us just buy into what we have been told. These people are lying to you, and many of us have neither the common sense or intelligence to see the truth of the matter. Or if we do, we simply think that if we allow business to max profits by offshoring consumer good production, this will work much better than our old model did. Yet there is no proof for that. We are experimenting, with the middle class, the one that will feel the consequences of this experiment. This new economic model will devastate the middle, as you will eventually see. Whether you ignore that devastation is the question here. My money says that some die hard cons will of course ignore it, or justify it, by placing the blame on the middle, instead of where it actually belongs. But some of us will realize the basic fact about a capitalistic economic model. We can create large middle classes or max out owner profits with cheap foreign labor. We cannot do both at the same time. It is one or the other, and you guys cannot comprehend this basic truth of capitalism. This is the big picture. I am puzzled as to how we have forgotten this truth that was well known in earlier times, and upon which our post ww2 model was based upon. How did we all go stupid, in a few decades? The answer is a lack of education and the propaganda, that utilizes the propensity of human nature. You divide, then you conquer. We are divided, and the middle will be conquered, until americans finally get enough of this corporate globalization that is destroying our middle, and adding more into poverty, all in order to max out the profits of the elites. It is the same old story, with a new name. But you guys just don't get it, or just don't care, because of an inane ideology, that is not workable, if you want a middle.

                    I am not what is a new liberal. I am an old one, the sort that tried to create history's largest middle class. I am for drilling. Especially given the dependence upon other folks oil. Just as long as that oil stays here. I am for the american worker, for the middle, and even for business making profits. What I am against is business maxing out profits by cheap foreign labor, and then be allowed to sell those goods back here, tariff free. I guess in my way of thinking, a business that makes its wealth from americans should give back to the nation, by employing the same folks that are buying their goods. Afterall, that was the key that helped create the middle class and our huge consumer market in the first place.
                    First, you always speak of corporations being the bad guy, did you not know San Francisco (the most liberal city in the US) outsourced the making of the SF / Oakland Bay bridge and save over 400 million in the process. This was all done with a liberal government. Governments are outsourcing all the time but you never mention them.

                    Second, you never mention all the jobs the tech sector has made and all the wealth it has brought to the US.

                    Third, you never mention our liberal government allowing illegals (20 million) to come across our borders and take good American Jobs.

                    Forth, you never mention our liberal government not allowing our land to be open for exploration.

                    Now you get your liberal government off it's ass and do the three items I mentioned that your liberal government is killing and this country will boom. And while your at it get your liberal government to approve the Keystone project. But you really don't care about anything I said because you are all hung up on your factory.

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                    • Re: Poor farmers can't find workers in Alabama...

                      Originally posted by Forplay View Post
                      First, you always speak of corporations being the bad guy, did you not know San Francisco (the most liberal city in the US) outsourced the making of the SF / Oakland Bay bridge and save over 400 million in the process. This was all done with a liberal government. Governments are outsourcing all the time but you never mention them.

                      Second, you never mention all the jobs the tech sector has made and all the wealth it has brought to the US.

                      Third, you never mention our liberal government allowing illegals (20 million) to come across our borders and take good American Jobs.

                      Forth, you never mention our liberal government not allowing our land to be open for exploration.

                      Now you get your liberal government off it's ass and do the three items I mentioned that your liberal government is killing and this country will boom. And while your at it get your liberal government to approve the Keystone project. But you really don't care about anything I said because you are all hung up on your factory.
                      Corporations that off shore american jobs are the bad guys. They are an enemy of working americans and our middle.

                      Look, both the dems and the repubs have been bought off, so that special interests could max out their profits by treasonous means. I admit that. I just bring up the fact that this change to our economic model originated from the cons and special interests, which apparently Clinton and the dems liked, because of the money flowing from these special interests that they had to have in order to maintain their own personal power. To remain in the royal class in america. To remain an elite. Perhaps it was inevitable, that special interests would finally change the economic model that created history's largest middle class. Perhaps the dems would have sucumbed to the special interest money, I do not know for sure. But the cons had the right ideology to embrace special business interests and what they wanted to do. The post ww2 economic model originated from dems, and just that fact is enough to want the cons to change it. There is not doubt that big business did not want to be used by america to create middle classes, because to do so means you cannot max out profit by cheap labor. So, when the cons came back to rule, these special interests had the right folks in power to " get her done". Which of course they did, as even Clinton embraced the monumental change to america's economy.

                      The tech sector jobs were great! Can you imagine how economically powerful we would be today, if we made the hardware as well as the software, while still making here what this nation consumes in other goods? We would have to have open the gates for legal immigration to fill all of the new jobs, as our factories exploded in growth. This is how we would have done it, if the middle class was what our leaders wanted to grow. But that was not the case. Special interests demanded to max out profits by cheap labor. Fuck the middle.

                      If america had continued to make her consumer goods, with the addition of the high tech stuff, the hardware the software, etc, we would not have needed trade, as in periods in the past when the nation turned inward. America would be a much different place today, the envy of other nations. Like we used to be when we worked to grow our middle, instead of making the elites maximally rich. This was a choice, not driven by anything but the greed of the few, this new model. All it needed to come to fruition was pro business, anti regulation cons getting some power back. I don't see how anyone could not see this, if you watched it as it happened.

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