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Immigration Enforcement Ramping Up?

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  • #76
    He continued the Obama policies. Of course, you being a racist, you would NEVER criticize Obama.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #77
      Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
      He continued the Obama policies. Of course, you being a racist, you would NEVER criticize Obama.
      Obama policies detained children without their parents, only if the parents were:
      -Not present with the children at the time of detention, or
      -The parents were deemed dangerously unfit to be with their children (fe, drug traffickers).

      Obama screwed up the child immigration crisis in some ways, but Trump's mistake (1 month to correct an obvious flaw) was clearly worse. And that belongs only to the current prez.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #78
        Originally posted by radcentr View Post
        Obama policies detained children without their parents, only if the parents were:
        -Not present with the children at the time of detention, or
        -The parents were deemed dangerously unfit to be with their children (fe, drug traffickers).

        Obama screwed up the child immigration crisis in some ways, but Trump's mistake (1 month to correct an obvious flaw) was clearly worse. And that belongs only to the current prez.
        How was Trump's Tx of children at the border different from Obama's?

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #79
          Originally posted by DavidSF View Post

          How was Trump's Tx of children at the border different from Obama's?
          You can start with my post #74, on this thread. Perhaps you missed it. Basically, current prez waited about one month before correcting a failure to follow standard operating procedure: Keep children with qualified parents or adults who crossed over with them. Obama, Bush 43 and past WH executives followed a correct SOP. The current prez did not. Previous executives made mistakes on other issues about immigration, but the failure to follow SOP on kids in detention with qualified adults is unique to the current WH.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #80
            Originally posted by radcentr View Post

            You can start with my post #74, on this thread. Perhaps you missed it. Basically, current prez waited about one month before correcting a failure to follow standard operating procedure: Keep children with qualified parents or adults who crossed over with them. Obama, Bush 43 and past WH executives followed a correct SOP. The current prez did not. Previous executives made mistakes on other issues about immigration, but the failure to follow SOP on kids in detention with qualified adults is unique to the current WH.
            So, the question was how did the two presidents' policies differ ... NOT whether or not Trump "sat on his hands." Though connected to this issue, that was not the question.

            In insisting Trump is "worse" than Obama, I don't believe you are in possession of any facts to support your contention, at least I have not seen any (which is why I asked the question): From USA Today:

            But DHS couldn’t provide any statistics on how many children may have been separated from their parents under the Obama administration.

            Instead, when we asked, it pointed to numbers that show 21 percent of apprehended adults were referred for prosecution under President Barack Obama. From fiscal year 2010 to fiscal 2016, there were 2,362,966 adults apprehended illegally crossing the Southern border, and 492,970 were referred for prosecution, those figures show. But that doesn’t tell us anything about how many children may have been separated from their parents under Obama.

            nd we don’t have such statistics to compare the past to the present.

            “We have not seen any data out of the current or prior administration on how many cases that were prosecuted were individuals who arrived with minors,” Theresa Cardinal Brown, director of immigration and cross-border policy at the Bipartisan Policy Center, told us in an email. “So we cannot make any guesses or assumptions about how many separations based on prosecution there were or are.”

            Brown said that even though DHS says 2,342 children have been separated from their parents in about one month, we don’t know what percentage of those cases are due to prosecutions for illegal crossings, and how many are due to other policies that would require separations — such as suspicion of trafficking, another outstanding warrant or insufficient proof of a family relationship.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #81
              Originally posted by DavidSF View Post

              So, the question was how did the two presidents' policies differ ... NOT whether or not Trump "sat on his hands." Though connected to this issue, that was not the question.

              In insisting Trump is "worse" than Obama, I don't believe you are in possession of any facts to support your contention, at least I have not seen any (which is why I asked the question): From USA Today:
              Trump did something worse than Obama in this case: He waited for weeks, before correcting defective procedures by law enforcement agents in his branch of gov't. Those procedures involved separating minors from qualified adults, who should have been detained along with those minors. The current prez waited weeks, after being made aware of the issue by the US Congress.

              The same immigration law enforcement agency under Obama did not separate minors from qualified adults in their care as accepted policy. If you have a comparison -fe Obama failed to react, even after he was made aware of improper procedure regarding qualified adults being detained with minors- you should make it "apples to apples". All you have presented so far is the fact that Obama's immigration policy ran into legal/procedural problems with children, and so did Trump's administration. My point is the severity of the current prez' failure to act properly regarding minors crossing illegally, and comparing that to the less severe policy faults of the previous administration.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #82
                "Children" are being used against us to keep us "debating" and too paralyzed to take useful action to protect Americas border.

                That's all.

                This isn't about "children."

                This is about keeping illegal aliens out of America. Their age is 100% irrelevant. If they came here illegally, they do not belong here.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post
                  "Children" are being used against us to keep us "debating" and too paralyzed to take useful action to protect Americas border.

                  That's all.

                  This isn't about "children."

                  This is about keeping illegal aliens out of America. Their age is 100% irrelevant. If they came here illegally, they do not belong here.
                  Noting the condition of people with legitimate refugee status, I agree with the rest of your position. The issue is, what to do with children who cross illegally with adults qualified to care for the kids. Before they are deported. While ICE agents must enforce the law, they are expected to follow procedures to minimize damage to property and people, depending on circumstances.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                    Noting the condition of people with legitimate refugee status, I agree with the rest of your position. The issue is, what to do with children who cross illegally with adults qualified to care for the kids. Before they are deported. While ICE agents must enforce the law, they are expected to follow procedures to minimize damage to property and people, depending on circumstances.
                    As always the answer can be found in folk music.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB11scadABg

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                    • #85
                      We can build all the wall to keep out the smaller portion that tries the illegal "walkover" method, and it will solve that much of the "illegal immigration" problem (most illegal immigration is from overstaying visas). But that's what many people use to "solve" our problems: Blame it on someone (or something) else.

                      Drug abuse? War on Drugs was gonna cut that off at the source, people were gonna magically stop looking for other drugs with which to escape. Unreliable employers? We'll impose tariffs and "encourage" the Big Companies from our Glorious Past to come back to America; maybe they'll employ citizens instead of robots. Social decay? A lack of religious morals -only- is supposedly at that base of this problem. It can't be the unproductive "us vs them" conflict between humanists and religious citizens, because that points to an internal defect that we have to solve ourselves. We too often find something else to blame it on, because blaming the man in the mirror is too uncomfortable. That is perhaps the greatest weakness of American Exceptionalism.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                        We can build all the wall to keep out the smaller portion that tries the illegal "walkover" method, and it will solve that much of the "illegal immigration" problem (most illegal immigration is from overstaying visas). But that's what many people use to "solve" our problems: Blame it on someone (or something) else.

                        Drug abuse? War on Drugs was gonna cut that off at the source, people were gonna magically stop looking for other drugs with which to escape. Unreliable employers? We'll impose tariffs and "encourage" the Big Companies from our Glorious Past to come back to America; maybe they'll employ citizens instead of robots. Social decay? A lack of religious morals -only- is supposedly at that base of this problem. It can't be the unproductive "us vs them" conflict between humanists and religious citizens, because that points to an internal defect that we have to solve ourselves. We too often find something else to blame it on, because blaming the man in the mirror is too uncomfortable. That is perhaps the greatest weakness of American Exceptionalism.
                        1. The war on drugs was never an actual war on drugs. Unfortunately, it has always been a political, feel-good series of events that hasn't produced anything. Prosecute a real "war" on drugs, and you'll see a different outcome. We have the technology, we simply refuse to use it. We have the manpower, we just won't empower them;
                        2. Cracking down on hiring illegals has always been just a campaign slogan, at best. We came close under Bush II, but no cigar. We have the laws in place, we have the enforcement power in place, we just won't use them because it is thought to be politically unpopular;
                        3. Social Decay has always been what society engenders. Someone attacks us as a group (a la 9/11) and we're all over getting them ... making them pay ... but in the inter-periods, we have historically devolved into our own selfish, special interests. Then we get a president like the immediate past 8 years who specialized in pitting one group against the other and it only exacerbates the selfishness. When did the KKK resurge? When did BLM organize? all under his watch.


                        I absolutely agree with your last part. Instead of taking responsibility for our own actions, we definitely do look for someone else to blame... and that became more visible with Rodney King. Someone had their new video camera and caught the end of a conflagration between an irate, obstinate, pugnacious citizen and some police officers. Rodney King was completely exonerated by the public and the police, the perennial bad guys, were presumed guilty ... and when their trial rejected that presumption, of course the riots took place in Los Angeles.

                        You are also right that immigrants who overstay their visas are a bigger problem than those crossing the border illegally, but though they are the same laws being broken, the problems (and resolving the problems) are different. Neither effort is helped with ass hats like California (and my own Illinois, btw) claiming "sanctuary state" (and "city") and, then, get a friendly court to deny this administration reasonable recourse in dealing with them.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
                          1. The war on drugs was never an actual war on drugs. Unfortunately, it has always been a political, feel-good series of events that hasn't produced anything. Prosecute a real "war" on drugs, and you'll see a different outcome. We have the technology, we simply refuse to use it. We have the manpower, we just won't empower them;
                          2. Cracking down on hiring illegals has always been just a campaign slogan, at best. We came close under Bush II, but no cigar. We have the laws in place, we have the enforcement power in place, we just won't use them because it is thought to be politically unpopular;
                          3. Social Decay has always been what society engenders. Someone attacks us as a group (a la 9/11) and we're all over getting them ... making them pay ... but in the inter-periods, we have historically devolved into our own selfish, special interests. Then we get a president like the immediate past 8 years who specialized in pitting one group against the other and it only exacerbates the selfishness. When did the KKK resurge? When did BLM organize? all under his watch.


                          I absolutely agree with your last part. Instead of taking responsibility for our own actions, we definitely do look for someone else to blame... and that became more visible with Rodney King. Someone had their new video camera and caught the end of a conflagration between an irate, obstinate, pugnacious citizen and some police officers. Rodney King was completely exonerated by the public and the police, the perennial bad guys, were presumed guilty ... and when their trial rejected that presumption, of course the riots took place in Los Angeles.

                          You are also right that immigrants who overstay their visas are a bigger problem than those crossing the border illegally, but though they are the same laws being broken, the problems (and resolving the problems) are different. Neither effort is helped with ass hats like California (and my own Illinois, btw) claiming "sanctuary state" (and "city") and, then, get a friendly court to deny this administration reasonable recourse in dealing with them.
                          As of today we still have more than 500 families that haven't been reunited. There doesn't appear to be a great sense of urgency to get it done.

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                          • #88
                            OF COURSE not.

                            Your media has decided it is no longer worthy, so it is no longer a rallying cry for the stunted-thinking liberal crybabies.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
                              OF COURSE not.

                              Your media has decided it is no longer worthy, so it is no longer a rallying cry for the stunted-thinking liberal crybabies.
                              I beg to differ MSNBC is still talking about the separated families.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by redrover View Post

                                I beg to differ MSNBC is still talking about the separated families.
                                While we wait for MSNBC to inspire action by the executive branch, there is the discipline and discharge procedures for lower level employees. Link:
                                https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-over...misconduct.pdf

                                Wonky stuff, but the press could at least put pressure on the least competent ICE officials. That might get a reaction by the prez, or he might ignore that as well. In any case, the pressure needs to be maintained for many different reasons; not least among them the welfare of innocent children.

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