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Immigration: have you ever thought about the actual cost?

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  • Originally posted by Brexx View Post

    That's the left's dream (nightmare). Let's hope it never comes true.
    The human population will flatten out, and decline in some cases, within the next 100 years. That is partly due to advances in technology, not political bias. As our worldwide population starts to drop significantly -and peacefully- we can use our understanding of society and technology to improve the lives of every individual. Not only thru better toys (entertainment, communication devices, etc.), but more productive behavior. That productivity ranges from better law 'n order (gov't.), to improved behavior (morality) within individuals and private organizations including religious, social and economic groups.

    -Since that enhances most conservative and liberal objectives, I don't see how one could call that a liberal "nightmare". Even RR's take on your objection -the end of "bulk restrictions" on immigration- doesn't make sense. Why would a conservative object to any country inviting families producing more children into their country, especially when all countries are considered developed (stable, productive, peaceful)?

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Originally posted by Brexx View Post
      Well, what do you know, another state is going to protect illegals and those who employ them.
      http://denver.cbslocal.com/2018/02/1...rd-green-card/
      While we wait for depop, bulk immigration is a problem if it de-stabilizes the home country. IOW, if the home country is corrupt, which inspires mass refugee movement into other countries, that can lead to a "remittance" economy. Such is the case in some Latin American countries, with upwards of 20% or more of their economy based on "remesas" (remittances sent home from the US).

      While the left has largely ignored this angle, I note how the right wing has also not bothered to take on this issue. A steady stream of the more corrupt economic and political leadership -isolated (in their prison system or that of the US) would go a long way toward lowering undocumented immigration. Opening up positions of leadership to the less corrupt is critical for the future of any country.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
        The human population will flatten out, and decline in some cases, within the next 100 years. That is partly due to advances in technology, not political bias. As our worldwide population starts to drop significantly -and peacefully- we can use our understanding of society and technology to improve the lives of every individual. Not only thru better toys (entertainment, communication devices, etc.), but more productive behavior. That productivity ranges from better law 'n order (gov't.), to improved behavior (morality) within individuals and private organizations including religious, social and economic groups.

        -Since that enhances most conservative and liberal objectives, I don't see how one could call that a liberal "nightmare". Even RR's take on your objection -the end of "bulk restrictions" on immigration- doesn't make sense. Why would a conservative object to any country inviting families producing more children into their country, especially when all countries are considered developed (stable, productive, peaceful)?
        The scenario you described where the population of the US dwindles to half of what it is now, and the country becomes desperate for new people from somewhere else just to stave off extinction is a nightmare scenario.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
          While we wait for depop, bulk immigration is a problem if it de-stabilizes the home country. IOW, if the home country is corrupt, which inspires mass refugee movement into other countries, that can lead to a "remittance" economy. Such is the case in some Latin American countries, with upwards of 20% or more of their economy based on "remesas" (remittances sent home from the US).

          While the left has largely ignored this angle, I note how the right wing has also not bothered to take on this issue. A steady stream of the more corrupt economic and political leadership -isolated (in their prison system or that of the US) would go a long way toward lowering undocumented immigration. Opening up positions of leadership to the less corrupt is critical for the future of any country.
          So you think we should solve our illegal immigration problems by fixing the problems that these people are running away from in their own countries? That's a tall order. Let's start with Mexico. We've already given them our manufacturing jobs. What should we do for them next?

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Originally posted by Brexx View Post

            So you think we should solve our illegal immigration problems by fixing the problems that these people are running away from in their own countries? That's a tall order. Let's start with Mexico. We've already given them our manufacturing jobs. What should we do for them next?
            Nope. We can't fix their problems, but we have to lend a hand. We can't take all their corrupt politicians and narco-traffickers, but it would help to clear the path for their less corrupt to assume power and (at least) start needed repairs to their own country. They could reciprocate, and take some of our own worst leadership after conviction and sentencing. We would have to actually convict some of our leaders (besides the few Congress critters sent up the river), of course. The Organization of American States had a team of prosecutors terrorizing scumbag politicians in Guatemala, for example. Link:
            President Pיrez Molina and Vice President Roxana Baldetti resigned and were promptly indicted and imprisoned. The cases provoked widespread revulsion and a national protest movement of a scale and intensity unique in Guatemalan history, a “Guatemalan spring” that upended the 2015 presidential elections and raised hope for fundamental political change.
            https://www.opensocietyfoundations.o...a-20160321.pdf

            Naturally, Guatemala has done some back-sliding, as fighting deeply rooted corruption is as easy as yanking out a 5-foot elm sapling by hand. -Kinda difficult. But it is a great start. To add icing to the cake, the OAS leader (Almagro) was kicked out of Venezuela for criticizing their joke-of-a regime some time ago. So, no credible claims of political bias, very important when sending corrupt leaders "up the river". This type of program should have been started decades ago, so we could have seen improvements (including immigration) by now.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
              Nope. We can't fix their problems, but we have to lend a hand. We can't take all their corrupt politicians and narco-traffickers, but it would help to clear the path for their less corrupt to assume power and (at least) start needed repairs to their own country. They could reciprocate, and take some of our own worst leadership after conviction and sentencing. We would have to actually convict some of our leaders (besides the few Congress critters sent up the river), of course. The Organization of American States had a team of prosecutors terrorizing scumbag politicians in Guatemala, for example. Link:

              https://www.opensocietyfoundations.o...a-20160321.pdf

              Naturally, Guatemala has done some back-sliding, as fighting deeply rooted corruption is as easy as yanking out a 5-foot elm sapling by hand. -Kinda difficult. But it is a great start. To add icing to the cake, the OAS leader (Almagro) was kicked out of Venezuela for criticizing their joke-of-a regime some time ago. So, no credible claims of political bias, very important when sending corrupt leaders "up the river". This type of program should have been started decades ago, so we could have seen improvements (including immigration) by now.
              I don't see this kind of action having any effect on our illegal immigrant problem. The wall should have been built decades ago along with stiffer penalties for employers and illegals. Its good to see ICE action stepped up significantly under Trump, and hopefully he will get the wall done. These are the only things that will actually work.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Originally posted by Brexx View Post

                I don't see this kind of action having any effect on our illegal immigrant problem. The wall should have been built decades ago along with stiffer penalties for employers and illegals. Its good to see ICE action stepped up significantly under Trump, and hopefully he will get the wall done. These are the only things that will actually work.
                That's like saying we can stop the drug abuse problem just by keeping drugs out. Employers who require cheap labor will find a way to get the cheap labor. Unlike a heroin junkie, their supply has brains and legs to get here.

                This requires a two-level approach. Enforce laws against illegal employment in the US, and improve the hellish conditions which inspire so many to leave Latin America. Making LA more attractive for employment (and other living conditions) has to start with their worst public officials going into the slammer. If you insist on ignoring that requirement, then suffer the consequences of humans moving themselves over the border to feed the habit of low-paying employers. If heroin gets into the US despite our best efforts, how do we keep out a human being who is driven by desperation?

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                  That's like saying we can stop the drug abuse problem just by keeping drugs out. Employers who require cheap labor will find a way to get the cheap labor. Unlike a heroin junkie, their supply has brains and legs to get here.

                  This requires a two-level approach. Enforce laws against illegal employment in the US, and improve the hellish conditions which inspire so many to leave Latin America. Making LA more attractive for employment (and other living conditions) has to start with their worst public officials going into the slammer. If you insist on ignoring that requirement, then suffer the consequences of humans moving themselves over the border to feed the habit of low-paying employers. If heroin gets into the US despite our best efforts, how do we keep out a human being who is driven by desperation?
                  Actually, that's not entirely true, when you disallow the flooding of the market with high levels of unskilled foreign labor, a number of things will happen. To some extent, wages will rise to attract sufficient labor resources. Some job losses will occur NOT because jobs go overseas, but because of capital investment that fuels efficiency gains and business being able to maintain the same (or higher) levels of output with less labor input (which is not only GOOD but the ONLY way a society raises its economic well being in the long run).

                  People who do not understand economics and economic development look at the proliferation of "self checkout" counters and fewer cashiers at their local grocery store and can't help but believe that this means times are bad, fewer jobs, blah, blah, blah, when in fact this is a VERY good thing for us as a society long-term. It means that business is investing and innovating in ways that increases productivity, keeps prices down and competitive and expand the availability of goods and services to more and more people.

                  Think about all the things that the overwhelming majority of the middle class (and even the "poor") consider to be basic household goods today that would have been considered to be available to just the upper middle class or "rich" 30 years ago.

                  How much would it have cost you 30 years ago to have a computer in your home? Adjust that for inflation, and only a complete idiot can say with a straight face that the middle class has seen its real income stagnate over that period.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Originally posted by Marcus1124 View Post

                    Actually, that's not entirely true, when you disallow the flooding of the market with high levels of unskilled foreign labor, a number of things will happen. To some extent, wages will rise to attract sufficient labor resources. Some job losses will occur NOT because jobs go overseas, but because of capital investment that fuels efficiency gains and business being able to maintain the same (or higher) levels of output with less labor input (which is not only GOOD but the ONLY way a society raises its economic well being in the long run).

                    People who do not understand economics and economic development look at the proliferation of "self checkout" counters and fewer cashiers at their local grocery store and can't help but believe that this means times are bad, fewer jobs, blah, blah, blah, when in fact this is a VERY good thing for us as a society long-term. It means that business is investing and innovating in ways that increases productivity, keeps prices down and competitive and expand the availability of goods and services to more and more people.

                    Think about all the things that the overwhelming majority of the middle class (and even the "poor") consider to be basic household goods today that would have been considered to be available to just the upper middle class or "rich" 30 years ago.

                    How much would it have cost you 30 years ago to have a computer in your home? Adjust that for inflation, and only a complete idiot can say with a straight face that the middle class has seen its real income stagnate over that period.
                    Good to see you back on the forums. I agree with your points regarding labor supply. If a job can be done by a "robot" (some form of automation), that means the human who did the job before was probably suffering from dull job conditions. Humans need more challenge in our work, more than running thousands of items over a bar-code scanner or spot welding frames on a vehicle assembly line.

                    My point on this issue was reducing mass immigration by aiding countries that "oversupply" immigrants. A country that is dominated by corruption will be more likely to panic a large portion of their population into leaving at any cost. (fe) Too many people are leaving Mexico, due mostly to a crisis-level of corruption in gov't. officials. It is at a "crisis level" because people are being murdered and injured at intolerable rates. If the local "comisario" (sheriff) is also a hit man for the local capo, and has raped 4 girls from different families, then was "gifted" land titles from said families, that zone will see a much greater outflow of people. In short, they leave because they have nothing to lose. Multiply that by several layers of gov't. to the federal level, and we have mass emigration -even if most of the corruption isn't as violent as example I provided. That flow can and should be stopped at it's source. Mainly, by supporting a very well paid team of prosecuting attorneys and small army of forensic accountants (mostly Latin American), all of whom diligently send the worst politicians into the can for minimal 10 year sentences. Lather, rinse, repeat for about 20 years, and Mexico has opened the doors to a cleaner, more competent brand of public servant. One who actually controls organized crime and otherwise provides a lawful environment, suitable for a stable and prosperous economy. We will have a much lower flow into the US, if and when Mexico and other afflicted countries benefit from such legal teams.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                      That's like saying we can stop the drug abuse problem just by keeping drugs out. Employers who require cheap labor will find a way to get the cheap labor. Unlike a heroin junkie, their supply has brains and legs to get here.

                      This requires a two-level approach. Enforce laws against illegal employment in the US, and improve the hellish conditions which inspire so many to leave Latin America. Making LA more attractive for employment (and other living conditions) has to start with their worst public officials going into the slammer. If you insist on ignoring that requirement, then suffer the consequences of humans moving themselves over the border to feed the habit of low-paying employers. If heroin gets into the US despite our best efforts, how do we keep out a human being who is driven by desperation?
                      Properly constructed walls or fences do work to keep people out. The reason the southern border fence is not working now is that it was never completed, and parts of it were of poor design. A proper barrier like the section by San Diego works well. Israels wall works well.

                      Working to improve conditions in other countries is a noble cause as well as a self-serving one, but it is very difficult. The US has been accused of doing too much of that, but that doesn't mean we should give up on it. I just don't see it as a solution to our illegal immigration problem. The wall and stepped up enforcement will be effective if done right. Nothing will be 100% effective. Its like fighting any other kind of crime - the fight is never over.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Originally posted by Brexx View Post

                        Properly constructed walls or fences do work to keep people out. The reason the southern border fence is not working now is that it was never completed, and parts of it were of poor design. A proper barrier like the section by San Diego works well. Israels wall works well.

                        Working to improve conditions in other countries is a noble cause as well as a self-serving one, but it is very difficult. The US has been accused of doing too much of that, but that doesn't mean we should give up on it. I just don't see it as a solution to our illegal immigration problem. The wall and stepped up enforcement will be effective if done right. Nothing will be 100% effective. Its like fighting any other kind of crime - the fight is never over.
                        Immigration waves would be a much smaller issue now, if the US/Canada had pushed a "CICIG" (political anti-corruption) campaign, starting 20 years ago. The US has hardly ever been accused of trying to clean up impunity in Latin America, but you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

                        Drugs go around the wall (or over it) right now. Build it, sure, but don't expect it to stop the flow, or slow it way down. Physical barriers will usually be secondary in importance, to cleaning up chaos in the country sending panicked immigrants to the more stable country.

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                        • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                          Immigration waves would be a much smaller issue now, if the US/Canada had pushed a "CICIG" (political anti-corruption) campaign, starting 20 years ago. The US has hardly ever been accused of trying to clean up impunity in Latin America, but you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

                          Drugs go around the wall (or over it) right now. Build it, sure, but don't expect it to stop the flow, or slow it way down. Physical barriers will usually be secondary in importance, to cleaning up chaos in the country sending panicked immigrants to the more stable country.
                          CICIG started in 2007. Ten years later is there any evidence that illegal immigration from Guatemala has decreased?

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                          • Originally posted by Brexx View Post

                            CICIG started in 2007. Ten years later is there any evidence that illegal immigration from Guatemala has decreased?
                            No. I'd give it 20 years of consistently sending the worst politicians to the can for long sentences. That removes them from influence, with more access for the less corrupt. Think of how the lawless state of slavery was corrected, just in the legal sense. Jim Crow laws took nearly 100 years to overturn, but it was a worthy effort that produced positive results, both socially and economically.

                            Your wall will do something to stem the flow of undocumented workers in the short run. A CICIG program in all corrupt states will do a lot more to cut that flow in the long run.

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