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Immigration: have you ever thought about the actual cost?

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  • Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

    Guess you don't mind that your kids are making less than they would be if these illegal aliens weren't in the country. Used to be Democrats were for the little guy, no more I guess.

    Schumer in 2009:

    Chuck Schumer In 2009: "Illegal Immigration Is Wrong" [VIDEO]
    A good mix of left and right wing politicians who were for job seekers, before they were against illegal immigration. Or vice-versa, depending on the opportunities and constituencies. On the other side are the incentives to walk across our southern frontier with Mexico (or more commonly, fly/drive in and "overstay" one's visa). Excuses range from "..it's a job no native born US citizen would want", to "the employer just can't afford -or won't pay- what the citizen demands". One strategy for "undocumented workers" (lefty) or "illegal aliens" (righty) is to triple up on an apartment, to afford the rent and send money back to family in the home country.

    What's the point of this observation? In order for the employers who currently prefer "illegals", to switch to citizen employees, they will need to pay more. Unless domestic labor (US culture) accepts tripling up on apartments to pay rent, that cost will need to come down, if the employer won't raise wages. Lastly, there is demand; full employment, wages being pushed up by a slight shortage of labor, and a lack of significant personal debt nationwide. If we have those conditions, employers who were formerly "cheap" when it comes to payroll, will have incentive to raise wages to a level acceptable by the US laborer. Do I think this is possible? Yes, and I think that would be preferred since I favor the US laborer. Is it likely? No, at least not for awhile. There is too much history, too many mistakes we need to correct before employer and employee alike are "lined up" and prepared to maximize their positions. Poor personal habits (fe high debt) taken on by both parties, extreme positions against employers or employees taken by a portion of labor union or business owners, the history of importing cheap labor (goes waaay back) =many bad habits.

    This is just pressure on the domestic side. The foreign angle on this -especially with latin america- is gunboat diplomacy. Not to argue for or against a given tinpot dictator, but the US was overly fond of this model to control economic and political factors in LA. Dictators have a way of destabilizing their country as an unintended consequence of their objective to enrich themselves. Samoza in Nicaragua (righty) to Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela (lefty). Add the first mix of people who want to come to the US for a better job and less crazy politicians. On top of that, add people who need to leave or they will die or suffer more than the average person can take. What portion of the 11 million "undocumented workers" are here just for the job? What portion is here to get away from the homicidal crew that took over their neighborhood (or country) back home? That last portion is going to try to get to the US no matter what, and they will tempt the employer who wants cheap labor as a quick fix.

    ?


    • Originally posted by radcentr View Post

      I read the linked article. Did you? A 5 million job hit on the urban labor force is not something we easily recover from. There will be new jobs maintaining automation in manufacturing. That will be many fewer jobs than the manufacturing sector used to employ. The price per product goes down due to automation, which means more people will be hired to sell those products, IF demand increases. Otherwise, if demand stays flat (rumor has it, people have enuf stuff, and need to eat less junk food), employment will be less than full time, at a less than wonderful wage.
      Actually, it is something we could easily recover from, if the government would get out of the way, reducing taxes, regulations, state and local ordinances that make actually starting new businesses so burdensome. What we do NOT need is a bunch of idiots thinking that government can better organize and coordinate the economy with some ill (or never) defined notion of "fairness" as a goal.

      And it is not like we will suddenly lose 5 million jobs all at once.

      There is also a fundamentally flawed assumption about the nature of new jobs. As productivity (and technology) improved, it raises the living standards of everyone in society over time. People who have jobs that are traditionally lower pay suddenly have access to goods and services that would have been out of reach of prior generations of people holding those jobs. For example, very few middle class people could afford mobile phones 40 years ago, now almost everyone in the middle class (and a huge portion of the "poor") own phones that didn't even exist (or the predecessors of which were largely found in the hands of the upper-middle class and wealthy).

      In fact, consumer goods and services have largely seen tremendous drops in real price over time (adjusted for inflation). The only areas of the economy where we have seen substantial real increases in costs are:
      - Housing
      - Education
      - Healthcare (except for some elective cosmetic and eye procedures)

      Even taking into account improvements in the contribution of improvement in quality of healthcare goods and services over that time, healthcare has still gone up in cost in real terms over that time. Had these three sectors held to merely flat (no inflation, but no decrease) the drop in real prices of other consumer goods and services would have resulted in even more apparent improvements in the material well being of the average American. Even with that said, actual inflation measure have overstated real inflation rates for at least 30 years (which is why you have idiots claiming "the middle class hasn't gotten a raise in 30 years" when the average middle class citizens have access to goods and services today that either didn't exist, or were out of reach economically for the middle class in decades past).

      And what do those three areas of the economy have in common other than being so anomalous with regard to price increases over time...they happen to be the three areas of the economy most regulated and subsidized by the government. Add to that list energy (which has come down a bit in price over time, but not nearly as much as it would have without many ideologically motivated regulations and subsidies) and you have an economy were the only areas we are not getting far more for far less than ever before being those things government is most involved in "helping" us with.

      Take for example the town I grew up in...the number of cars parked on the streets (which was almost never seen when I was growing up unless someone was having guests over) is now common place. Why? Because whereas the average number of cars per household in our town used to be about 1.75, it is now 3. In addition, because we have so much more stuff (the number of riding mowers in town is ridiculous) many people no longer are able to put their cars in their garages. Now my town is pretty much the demographic definition of a middle-middle class area, and only a complete moron could claim that the material standard of living has increased tremendously over the last 30 years.,

      ?


      • Originally posted by Marcus1124 View Post

        Actually, it is something we could easily recover from, if the government would get out of the way, reducing taxes, regulations, state and local ordinances that make actually starting new businesses so burdensome. What we do NOT need is a bunch of idiots thinking that government can better organize and coordinate the economy with some ill (or never) defined notion of "fairness" as a goal.

        And it is not like we will suddenly lose 5 million jobs all at once.

        There is also a fundamentally flawed assumption about the nature of new jobs. As productivity (and technology) improved, it raises the living standards of everyone in society over time. People who have jobs that are traditionally lower pay suddenly have access to goods and services that would have been out of reach of prior generations of people holding those jobs. For example, very few middle class people could afford mobile phones 40 years ago, now almost everyone in the middle class (and a huge portion of the "poor") own phones that didn't even exist (or the predecessors of which were largely found in the hands of the upper-middle class and wealthy).

        In fact, consumer goods and services have largely seen tremendous drops in real price over time (adjusted for inflation). The only areas of the economy where we have seen substantial real increases in costs are:
        - Housing
        - Education
        - Healthcare (except for some elective cosmetic and eye procedures)

        Even taking into account improvements in the contribution of improvement in quality of healthcare goods and services over that time, healthcare has still gone up in cost in real terms over that time. Had these three sectors held to merely flat (no inflation, but no decrease) the drop in real prices of other consumer goods and services would have resulted in even more apparent improvements in the material well being of the average American. Even with that said, actual inflation measure have overstated real inflation rates for at least 30 years (which is why you have idiots claiming "the middle class hasn't gotten a raise in 30 years" when the average middle class citizens have access to goods and services today that either didn't exist, or were out of reach economically for the middle class in decades past).

        And what do those three areas of the economy have in common other than being so anomalous with regard to price increases over time...they happen to be the three areas of the economy most regulated and subsidized by the government. Add to that list energy (which has come down a bit in price over time, but not nearly as much as it would have without many ideologically motivated regulations and subsidies) and you have an economy were the only areas we are not getting far more for far less than ever before being those things government is most involved in "helping" us with.

        Take for example the town I grew up in...the number of cars parked on the streets (which was almost never seen when I was growing up unless someone was having guests over) is now common place. Why? Because whereas the average number of cars per household in our town used to be about 1.75, it is now 3. In addition, because we have so much more stuff (the number of riding mowers in town is ridiculous) many people no longer are able to put their cars in their garages. Now my town is pretty much the demographic definition of a middle-middle class area, and only a complete moron could claim that the material standard of living has increased tremendously over the last 30 years.,

        I don't think it is something easily recovered from, even with the reduction in those things you listed. Not that what you listed would not help out, but the deep changes in our economic model is the problem, along with what AI and robotics will do to the number of jobs available. It seems easy to ignore that economic activity, and jobs come from manufacturing what a nation's people buy, and from services provided by the service sector. Much of the service sector which people have been forced into are generally part time jobs, no benefits and low wages. Not living wages. We have lost most of the manufacturing which still employs human beings to slave labor which no western nation except extremely poor nations can compete against, which btw is why our Founders didn't force our citizens to compete with and for obvious and common sense reasons. And so the manufacturing that we have in most cases are highly automated and use robots. These manufacturing jobs are few in number compared to what it once was.

        Given that we hardly make consumer goods anymore, that part of our economy that used to employ americans with at least lower middle class wages is lost, taken away from our economy and of course has something to do with almost a hundred million americans never having a living wage job again. Our real unemployment rate is not what the gov't says it is ,but as Shadow Stats says, our rates are in the double digits, depression jobless rates.

        So, any recovery will have to depend upon the low wage, part time jobs found in the service sector. And I would not call this a recovery. I call it regression to what the south looked like before we got industry. You do not have what america once had with a service sector economy. And things will only get worse not better, regardless of rolling back regulation and tax cuts, etc. For our economic model is not a model that provided for our nation's people. It is absurd to think you can offshore our manufacturing sector and still have an economy that looks like one which has not off shored manufacturing. But for some reason, globalists act like there is no 800 pound ape hiding in the corner and act as if we do not need an economy that needs all sectors in order to employ our people with jobs that do not qualify one for welfare. And just imagine at the lack of mechanical engineers and other engineers that a service sector economy has created. Losing these fields weakens any nation which once had hundreds of thousands. China has them now, and from the big picture view just how important are these fields in modern civilization and what does it add to the strength of a nation to have a healthy engineering field?

        I will say it again, America didn't win ww2 nor did we go to the moon, or accomplished the other great and notable things in our past with a damned service sector economy. Some things are exponentially more important to a nation and her people than just maxing out the wealth of our elites by gutting out our nation due to slave labor maxing out profits for the top. And yet, instead of the principles of our Founders still being used, we have seen a 180 departure from that, and placed the interests of a few over the interest of maintaining the country which the principles of our founders created. And regardless of what anyone says, no nation ever became what America became by selling out to slave labor and hollowing out that nation, leaving only a service sector economy to provide jobs for the people. And yet people will argue against this most basic economic common sense. But no one can provide on single example of a powerful rich nation that ever became that way depending upon a service sector economy.

        ?


        • Originally posted by Marcus1124 View Post

          Actually, it is something we could easily recover from, if the government would get out of the way, reducing taxes, regulations, state and local ordinances that make actually starting new businesses so burdensome. What we do NOT need is a bunch of idiots thinking that government can better organize and coordinate the economy with some ill (or never) defined notion of "fairness" as a goal.

          And it is not like we will suddenly lose 5 million jobs all at once.

          There is also a fundamentally flawed assumption about the nature of new jobs. As productivity (and technology) improved, it raises the living standards of everyone in society over time. People who have jobs that are traditionally lower pay suddenly have access to goods and services that would have been out of reach of prior generations of people holding those jobs. For example, very few middle class people could afford mobile phones 40 years ago, now almost everyone in the middle class (and a huge portion of the "poor") own phones that didn't even exist (or the predecessors of which were largely found in the hands of the upper-middle class and wealthy).

          In fact, consumer goods and services have largely seen tremendous drops in real price over time (adjusted for inflation). The only areas of the economy where we have seen substantial real increases in costs are:
          - Housing
          - Education
          - Healthcare (except for some elective cosmetic and eye procedures)

          Even taking into account improvements in the contribution of improvement in quality of healthcare goods and services over that time, healthcare has still gone up in cost in real terms over that time. Had these three sectors held to merely flat (no inflation, but no decrease) the drop in real prices of other consumer goods and services would have resulted in even more apparent improvements in the material well being of the average American. Even with that said, actual inflation measure have overstated real inflation rates for at least 30 years (which is why you have idiots claiming "the middle class hasn't gotten a raise in 30 years" when the average middle class citizens have access to goods and services today that either didn't exist, or were out of reach economically for the middle class in decades past).

          And what do those three areas of the economy have in common other than being so anomalous with regard to price increases over time...they happen to be the three areas of the economy most regulated and subsidized by the government. Add to that list energy (which has come down a bit in price over time, but not nearly as much as it would have without many ideologically motivated regulations and subsidies) and you have an economy were the only areas we are not getting far more for far less than ever before being those things government is most involved in "helping" us with.

          Take for example the town I grew up in...the number of cars parked on the streets (which was almost never seen when I was growing up unless someone was having guests over) is now common place. Why? Because whereas the average number of cars per household in our town used to be about 1.75, it is now 3. In addition, because we have so much more stuff (the number of riding mowers in town is ridiculous) many people no longer are able to put their cars in their garages. Now my town is pretty much the demographic definition of a middle-middle class area, and only a complete moron could claim that the material standard of living has increased tremendously over the last 30 years.,
          In my post, #113, the link notes 5 million jobs were already lost since 2000. The recovery happens with a greater number working in the service sector, as BD notes. While it is true that companies going overseas note regulation in the US as a factor, they also cut their labor costs by very large margins. That makes an argument: Their emphasis on regulations is a smokescreen in part.

          Your note on the evolution of our flat economy is noted, I agree with large parts of it, including the material standards we enjoy today. But I don't understand how health care would fall in price if it were less regulated. Is the price of new technology, new medicine or new staff pushed significantly by gov't regulation? Perhaps you meant the requirements to document health care and insurance, which might be a better argument. Otherwise, the price of a medical degree is high (and has been for a long time), and we subsidize new medicines by loaning out lab space and staff/grad students at land grant universities. Pricing goes up and down thu out these arguments; while gov't. does place a drag on operations, it suppresses price on others (new medicine). If insurance companies were the principle creators of "medical paperwork", I doubt it would be much less burdensome or costly than gov't. regs.

          Back to work and standard of living. It is critical that engineering and innovation has a permanent place in the US economy, both for national security and a base for improved standard of living. I agree with BD in part, but don't believe we will ever achieve the level of manufacturing we had after WWII. If gov't. does anything to achieve the innovation objective -manufacturing for technological advances, it will need to make a radical turn away from multi-national companies, to favor small and medium sized engineering companies. The MNC's are going to locate overseas despite any fantasy of low tax/low regs. Compare China with the US, and we cannot compete for most of the largest manufacturing operations. They can undercut any regulation and most tax that we impose, look at their outright poisoning of Chinese citizens. Why would we want to compete with that lack of regulation? The Chinese can offer wages that are much lower than ours. There are only two reasons tax codes and regulations favor these companies locating overseas: Future employment (lobbyists or executives) for members of congress, and the Big Sexy plant that is temporarily located to employ large numbers of US employees. If automation and large budgets allow MNC's to pick and choose their location worldwide, and the US cannot compete to keep them here, then the US gov't. should provide incentives only to the small and medium firms. In short, ignore the MNC's promises to re-locate back to the US. A few MNC's (Boeing, Ford Motors, etc.) will keep some factories here due to customer demand and sheer bulk of their product, but most are going to leave. We can't stop them, nor should we try.

          Standard of living in the material sense has improved, while other measures have arguably declined. Social decay has set in, health has declined compared to other developed nations. A new flat screen TV is a poor substitute for divorced parents. I think a new look at employment, among other changes, can help rebuild our social fabric. Employment for the future should focus on education/training, innovation (beta engineering) and technology (start ups), along with entertainment and other parts of the service industry. The objective is employment for social health, since we have already met (or exceeded) our material needs. (fe) One parent works near full-time and long term for better income, while the other parent works mostly part-time to reserve time for family health. Advances in medicine allow more dependable family planning, so careers and time management can be worked around child development, with material goods taking second place. The part-time parent might be focused on volunteer work that adds social value to their family and community (fe church or non-profit charities), or better their children's education (after school child care, teacher's assistant). If a couple has no children, they can work for other objectives beyond material needs, such as early retirement to do volunteer work, going overseas, developing a personal hobby, community activist, etc. The propaganda -let's face it, that's what it would be- to make this change in attitude, must be made by right and left, from church groups to gov't. To make an impact -to move away from materialism toward family and social integrity- all those groups need to encourage and support individuals coping with the coming change. The consumption and growth economy will become part of our past, where it should be.

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          • This is what a lawless society looks like

            -----------------------------------------

            After a San Francisco jury acquitted a five-time deported illegal alien for fatally shooting Kate Steinle with a stolen gun, a father and mother whose sons were also murdered by illegals blasted the jury.

            Jamiel Shaw, Sr.s son was fatally shot by an illegal alien while walking down the street in 2008, and he blasted the jury for acquitting Jose Ines Garcia Zarate.

            [The Steinle jury is full of] left-wing nutjobs, the deceased sons dad insisted, Fox News reported. "I expected [the verdict]," Shaw said, according to Fox News. "I remember telling people he's going to walk."

            ...

            The mother of a son who also fell victim to an illegal immigrant crime also lamented the verdict.

            "[I am] sickened [by the verdict, which is a] mockery of the justice system," Laura Wilkerson the mother of Joshua Wilkerson, who was beaten to death in 2010 lamented, according to Fox News, in a separate report.

            Wilkerson said the jury should have heard the evidence that Jose Ines Garcia Zarate had been deported five times before Steinle's death and committed seven previous felonies, Fox news reported. Zarate admitted that he picked up a previously-stolen gun, but maintained that the shooting was accidental.

            It was argued that if so-called sanctuary cities like San Francisco would simply abide by the law and follow directives given by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) which is fully backed by President Donald Trump Steinle would not have suffered such a violent fate at the hands of an illegal immigrant felon.

            Wilkerson said Steinle would be alive if San Francisco authorities honored the ICE detainer and kept Zarate in custody instead of letting him go, Fox News informed.

            Even though federal officials announced that Zarate is now slated to be deported for a sixth time Wilkerson is confident that he will soon return to commit more crime and wreak more heartbreak on American citizens.

            "He'll be right back it's ridiculous, Wilkerson insisted. It doesn't seem to be too hard for him to do it five times.

            "How many more American citizens have to die? Wilkerson asked.

            Judge Jeanine Pirro expressed nothing but contempt for Steinles jury verdict and the court system in the City by the Bay, where Zarate shot and killed Steinle on Pier 14 back in 2015 a killing that has ignited and fueld a major illegal immigration controversy ever since.

            "How much is your child's life worth on the open market? How about the open political market? Pirro asked on her Justice with Judge Jeanine show, according to Fox News Insiders Sunday report. Kate Steinle's family found out this week in San Francisco nothing absolutely nothing."

            During her program, Pirro recounted to her audience how Steinle cried for help after being shot only to helplessly die in her fathers arms.

            "Zarate not God decided when she would die," Pirro insisted.

            She also brought up similar to Wilkersons mother the absurdity that Zarates criminal record and his illegal alien status was not allowed to be presented to the jurists while the trial proceeded in the courtroom.

            [The fact that Zarate was also cleared of the lesser manslaughter charge is] a moral outrage [and a] legal outrage, the legal expert argued. "This was not a verdict based on truth, justice and facts, but [instead] on leftist rejection of the law and order."

            She contended that sanctuary cities are only a safe haven for illegal immigrants to freely commit crimes without punishmentmaking them war zones for law-abiding citizens.

            [With sanctuary cities like San Francisco], the only sanctuary is for criminal illegals," Pirro concluded.

            Just north of the border in Houston, Texas, the illegal alien murderer of Josh Wilkerson 19-year-old Hermilo Vildo Moralez of Pearland, Texas was issued a different fate than Zarate after he was charged with murder, first-degree felony, failure to identify and attempting to take a weapon from a peace officer for the disappearance and murder of her son three years after the brutal attack of the teen took place.

            A Brazoria County jury convicted Hermilo Moralez, who was charged with murder in the beating death of his missing classmate, Josh Wilkerson, the Houston Chronicle reported in 2013. Wilkerson's partially burned remains were discovered in a Fort Bend County field, where his body had been dumped with his hands and feet bound.

            The Texas murder was at first concealed by the illegal, who was soon found out.


            https://www.onenewsnow.com/legal-cou...t-wing-nutjobs

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