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New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

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  • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

    Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
    Gentlemen, for the love of all the Gods (even make up a few new ones if it helps) can we get back to the topic?
    Pian is everything: it brings you closer to God.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

      Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
      Gentlemen, for the love of all the Gods (even make up a few new ones if it helps) can we get back to the topic?
      Yes let's. I'm done feeding the troll. He just looked so hungry

      Sluggo, I've noticed some comments from you regarding the length of the execution and the gasping seen. You know he was anesthetized right? As in out like a light? The drug they didn't have was the one that kills you to death.
      But anesthesia improperly administered will do the same thing. People die from anesthesia all the time, its why anesthesiologists get paid a truly absurd sum of money. If you're not worried about the person dying, anesthesia is an expensive but pretty painless and very effective way to do so.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

        Originally posted by reality View Post
        Yes let's. I'm done feeding the troll. He just looked so hungry

        Sluggo, I've noticed some comments from you regarding the length of the execution and the gasping seen. You know he was anesthetized right? As in out like a light? The drug they didn't have was the one that kills you to death.
        But anesthesia improperly administered will do the same thing. People die from anesthesia all the time, its why anesthesiologists get paid a truly absurd sum of money. If you're not worried about the person dying, anesthesia is an expensive but pretty painless and very effective way to do so.
        You apparently missed my previous post on cost and anesthetic. Heroin, remember?
        Dirt cheap (in more than a few urban PD evidence rooms) and it's one of the first refined anesthetics. Maybe the guy barfs on the overdose, but he's passed out by then, no big deal.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

          Originally posted by reality View Post
          Yes let's. I'm done feeding the troll. He just looked so hungry

          Sluggo, I've noticed some comments from you regarding the length of the execution and the gasping seen. You know he was anesthetized right? As in out like a light? The drug they didn't have was the one that kills you to death.

          But anesthesia improperly administered will do the same thing. People die from anesthesia all the time, its why anesthesiologists get paid a truly absurd sum of money. If you're not worried about the person dying, anesthesia is an expensive but pretty painless and very effective way to do so.
          I have looked into this as best I can, looking over the articles I can find written (at least in part) by those that were there. Which is all I have to go on. Not a one of them mentions any method of recording brain activity, not a one of them mentions any other method of determining conscious reaction vs. involuntary movements from a sedated state. In short, you nor I know for sure the condemned died in a manner either of us are thinking. I am left with the report.

          They all point to the AP article (Publishes 6 days ago, amended 5 days ago.) I'll post one account from the LA Times based on that article less the pre / post filler.

          The only thing I can conclude from what these articles are saying is this took an unusually long time, with unusual reactions from the condemned. I have no logical choice but to conclude this is not the approach we should be going with. Or worse, open the door to new experiments and really open the door to new challenges that could compromise being able to use Capital Punishment at all. In the quest to not give a shit about the condition of the condemned we risk losing the practice entirely to satisfy those that look at this in a manner they know has legal consequence.

          Those that say this is "lawyer fodder" and act as if this is ok, will end up being the ones that cost us the ability to have Capital Punishment at all. The opposition wins, well done.

          But Ohio announced in September that it, like some other states, had run out of pentobarbital. The state said it will become the first in the nation to try a two-drug protocol, midazolam, a sedative, and hydromorphone, related to morphine.

          McGuire's attorneys had attempted to halt his execution last week, arguing the untried method put him at substantial risk of “agony and terror” during the execution. The state during court proceedings argued that though the Constitution protects from cruel punishment, that may not mean a completely comfortable death.

          “You're not entitled to a pain-free execution,” Assistant Atty. Gen. Thomas Madden said in court.

          According to the Associated Press, McGuire made loud snorting noises during one of the longest executions since Ohio resumed capital punishment in 1999.

          Strapped to a gurney in the execution chamber, McGuire thanked Stewart's family for their “kind words” in a letter he apparently received from them.

          “I'm going to heaven, I'll see you there when you come,” he said through a microphone held by the warden.

          As his adult children sobbed a few feet away in a witness room, McGuire opened and shut his left hand as if waving to his daughter, son and daughter-in-law.

          More than a minute later he raised himself up, looked in the direction of his family and said, “I love you. I love you” — his words audible even though the microphone had been removed.

          McGuire was still for almost five minutes, then emitted a loud snort, as if snoring, and continued to make that sound over the next several minutes. He also soundlessly opened and shut his mouth several times as his stomach rose and fell.

          “Oh my God,” his daughter, Amber McGuire, said as she observed her father's final moments, the wire service reported.

          Bohnert, McGuire's attorney, said concerns about the manner of death had been confirmed by the sounds and the length of time it took for him to die.
          Ohio execution: New drug protocol, but 15 minutes to die - latimes.com

          (The NPR link is the AP story)
          Correction: Ohio Execution Story : NPR

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

            Originally posted by radcentr View Post
            You apparently missed my previous post on cost and anesthetic. Heroin, remember?
            Dirt cheap (in more than a few urban PD evidence rooms) and it's one of the first refined anesthetics. Maybe the guy barfs on the overdose, but he's passed out by then, no big deal.
            I was just responding to sluggos concerns about the guy gasping for 20 minutes. Heroin: I don't want them to feel GOOD.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

              Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
              I have looked into this as best I can, looking over the articles I can find written (at least in part) by those that were there. Which is all I have to go on. Not a one of them mentions any method of recording brain activity, not a one of them mentions any other method of determining conscious reaction vs. involuntary movements from a sedated state. In short, you nor I know for sure the condemned died in a manner either of us are thinking. I am left with the report.

              They all point to the AP article (Publishes 6 days ago, amended 5 days ago.) I'll post one account from the LA Times based on that article less the pre / post filler.

              The only thing I can conclude from what these articles are saying is this took an unusually long time, with unusual reactions from the condemned. I have no logical choice but to conclude this is not the approach we should be going with. Or worse, open the door to new experiments and really open the door to new challenges that could compromise being able to use Capital Punishment at all. In the quest to not give a shit about the condition of the condemned we risk losing the practice entirely to satisfy those that look at this in a manner they know has legal consequence.

              Those that say this is "lawyer fodder" and act as if this is ok, will end up being the ones that cost us the ability to have Capital Punishment at all. The opposition wins, well done.


              Ohio execution: New drug protocol, but 15 minutes to die - latimes.com

              (The NPR link is the AP story)
              Correction: Ohio Execution Story : NPR

              Midazolam Injection (Midazolam) Drug Information: Indications, Dosage and How Supplied - Prescribing Information at RxList

              Reactions such as agitation, involuntary movements, hyperactivity and combativeness have been reported in adult and pediatric patients. Should such reactions occur, caution should be exercised before continuing administration of midazolam

              then they gave him dilaudid which is synthetic heroin (my ma is an NP pain specialist. I've also had dilaudid before when I had a kidney stone. Its chasing the dragon man).

              The sedative would've put him out, adding the dilaudid would've pretty much assured his death (see the warnings on the sedative I linked).
              The spasms are a fairly common sideeffect of the sedative. Both of these drugs, and their interactions are well known. There was no need to monitor brain function. The reason they put the warning on the sedative is because if its not administered properly you go into arrest and die. That's a known quantity.
              You go INTO arrest because your CNS is so depressed it cannot support autonomic functions anymore. If its that depressed you aren't feeling ANYTHING. Becuase if you were feeling something your CNS would be able to handle breathing.

              I'm not seeing the rub really. It certainly LOOKS bad. But then I imagine that watching a man die in any fashion is like that.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

                I watched a terminally ill patient on a morphine drip, once. It was indistinguishable from watching someone sleeping. The only indication they weren't sleeping -the monitors. A fatal heroin push would very likely provide a minimum amount of pleasure, especially if the person were given a drug to make them unconscious first. I proposed heroin because it's free and has no pharma strings attached.

                The difficult part of the morphine drip -watching everyone else in the room freaking out as their loved one was checking out. Unless someone has an unusual attachment to life and takes pains to avoid mortality issues, I can't see the same reaction from a death penalty execution. Unless they are a family member of the person being executed.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

                  Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                  I watched a terminally ill patient on a morphine drip, once. It was indistinguishable from watching someone sleeping. The only indication they weren't sleeping -the monitors. A fatal heroin push would very likely provide a minimum amount of pleasure, especially if the person were given a drug to make them unconscious first. I proposed heroin because it's free and has no pharma strings attached.

                  The difficult part of the morphine drip -watching everyone else in the room freaking out as their loved one was checking out. Unless someone has an unusual attachment to life and takes pains to avoid mortality issues, I can't see the same reaction from a death penalty execution. Unless they are a family member of the person being executed.
                  Their victims had no such peace. They don't deserve it. We don't have to torture them, but they deserve their execution and they deserve to be aware when it happens.
                  Hence wanting them shot in the head.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

                    Originally posted by reality View Post
                    Their victims had no such peace. They don't deserve it. We don't have to torture them, but they deserve their execution and they deserve to be aware when it happens.
                    Hence wanting them shot in the head.
                    If it is wrong for the first person to kill another, it is just as wrong for you to kill the murderer. Or you could believe that two wrongs, always equals a right. But if you do, your brain is so full of an ego that it sickens those who have understood their own egos.

                    Tell you what. When you can create a life, and be its author, and create it from a non sexual act, (that is cheating) then I will say you have a right to kill what you created. Until then, only God has the right to end what He created.

                    Killing the murderer isn't special. He dies, just as you will die. Whether from old age or an accident, or a homicide. You will die. What are you being punished for? In the grand scheme it doesn't matter if you live to be 5 years old, or 100. Once death happens, nothing in life is of any importance whatsoever.

                    If we really wanted to punish people for killing others, we would take away what all people desire most. Freedom. Taking a life releases a person from living in prison, which no one wants to do. How is that really punishment? It isn't, but it makes you feel gratified. But people can be gratified by the most evil things.

                    Doesn't it make you feel great, to have the power of life or death over others? The murderer feels that way, and you are like the murderer, as you get gratification from killing. So both of you are murderers, you are no different from the guy that murders another. Peas in a pod, sir. Cut from the same cloth. A dark cloth.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

                      Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                      If it is wrong for the first person to kill another, it is just as wrong for you to kill the murderer. Or you could believe that two wrongs, always equals a right. But if you do, your brain is so full of an ego that it sickens those who have understood their own egos.

                      Tell you what. When you can create a life, and be its author, and create it from a non sexual act, (that is cheating) then I will say you have a right to kill what you created. Until then, only God has the right to end what He created.

                      Killing the murderer isn't special. He dies, just as you will die. Whether from old age or an accident, or a homicide. You will die. What are you being punished for? In the grand scheme it doesn't matter if you live to be 5 years old, or 100. Once death happens, nothing in life is of any importance whatsoever.

                      If we really wanted to punish people for killing others, we would take away what all people desire most. Freedom. Taking a life releases a person from living in prison, which no one wants to do. How is that really punishment? It isn't, but it makes you feel gratified. But people can be gratified by the most evil things.

                      Doesn't it make you feel great, to have the power of life or death over others? The murderer feels that way, and you are like the murderer, as you get gratification from killing. So both of you are murderers, you are no different from the guy that murders another. Peas in a pod, sir. Cut from the same cloth. A dark cloth.
                      as is your right to think.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

                        Originally posted by thanatos144 View Post
                        as is your right to think.
                        Thanks. Gotta be at least one uncompromising moral being here. And I am uncompromising. I won't compromise with evil. Can't be bought either. Not for sale. I will not be blinded by emotions nor ideology. One must remain true, not to petty beliefs, but to my Creator.

                        One has the right to think in evil ways or in good ways. And I have the right to point out the evil, as you have the right to say I am full of it. The sad thing is I cannot change anyone, as we love our grooves that we find comfortable. So I don't try to change, as only the individual can move in that direction. But I must always say the Truth in matters as important as these. Even if I appear naןve, silly, detached from reality. I know I am fully grounded in "what is". But only another so grounded recognizes me. I doubt there are any here, but there could be. Perhaps Quinn? Only he can answer that, but I would only want him to do that for himself, not in support of anything said by this brain. Ain't looking to be agreed with, as truth couldn't care less. If this sounds of egomania, please be assured that while I still have one, it is very weak and does not rule this consciousness. Something else does.

                        I would have never executed Hitler. To do so makes me no different from him. I have no god given right to kill anyone, except in self defense, as all of god's creatures will do in self defense of life. Any killing other than self defense is the greatest immorality of them all. The greatest evil, to take what we had no hand in giving, life.
                        Last edited by Blue Doggy; 01-25-2014, 02:37 PM.

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                        • Re: New drug combination - controversial execution - 20+ minutes to die

                          Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                          If it is wrong for the first person to kill another, it is just as wrong for you to kill the murderer. Or you could believe that two wrongs, always equals a right. But if you do, your brain is so full of an ego that it sickens those who have understood their own egos.

                          Tell you what. When you can create a life, and be its author, and create it from a non sexual act, (that is cheating) then I will say you have a right to kill what you created. Until then, only God has the right to end what He created.

                          Killing the murderer isn't special. He dies, just as you will die. Whether from old age or an accident, or a homicide. You will die. What are you being punished for? In the grand scheme it doesn't matter if you live to be 5 years old, or 100. Once death happens, nothing in life is of any importance whatsoever.

                          If we really wanted to punish people for killing others, we would take away what all people desire most. Freedom. Taking a life releases a person from living in prison, which no one wants to do. How is that really punishment? It isn't, but it makes you feel gratified. But people can be gratified by the most evil things.

                          Doesn't it make you feel great, to have the power of life or death over others? The murderer feels that way, and you are like the murderer, as you get gratification from killing. So both of you are murderers, you are no different from the guy that murders another. Peas in a pod, sir. Cut from the same cloth. A dark cloth.
                          Your argument is based on the premise that killing another is wrong.
                          It is a false premise. Killing is perfectly acceptable in particular circumstances. Execution in retaliation for murder of an innocent being one.
                          Not only that but the punishment you endorse is torture. Making you quite similar to those you have hypothetically compared yourself to

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                          • Am not getting into a debate of whether the death penalty is valid or not because truthfully for every person you think doesn't deserve it there is a John Wayne Gacie

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