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400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

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  • 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

    There were 400 civilians massacred in Homs yesterday as the army shelled housing complexes. Meanwhile, Russia continues to defend the brutal regime in a way that's sickening to my stomach. Is there anyone here that supports the Russian position of preventing even a meaningless stupid toothless UN resolution when clearly more action is required to stop the killing?

    The Associated Press (@AP)
    2/4/12 5:28 AM
    Russian foreign minister says he still sees 2 major problems with draft UN resolution on violence in Syria: apne.ws/xVX5HJ


    Sent from my iPhone

  • #2
    Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

    Only they don't seem to be defending it at all:

    He added, however, that there were the two issues which “are of crucial importance and they must be modified if a resolution is to be adopted.”

    He expressed concern about “an absolutely unrealistic provision expecting that the government of Syria would withdraw from the cities and towns exactly at the time when the armed groups are taking over the quarters of those cities and towns.”

    “We are not friends or allies of President Assad,” he said. “We try to stick to our responsibilities as permanent members of the Security Council, and the Security Council by definition does not engage in domestic affairs of member states.”

    “While we’re all concerned with the rule of law and human rights and democracy, let’s not forget that rule of law must prevail in international relations as well,” he said. “When we see a veto, it’s the (U.N.) charter at work.”

    In an interview broadcast earlier Saturday on Russian state television, Lavrov delivered a blunt warning that Moscow is prepared to use its veto power.

    He said Moscow had submitted its amendments to the Western-backed draft. He said that Russia hopes that “bias will not prevail over common sense.”
    So, he thinks that requiring the Syrian military to simply leave cities the exact moment that armed insurrectionists arrive is unrealistic. And he thinks that the UNSC has not business at all in the internal affairs of a country. Hmmm. That last one sounds like something the US would say immediately before vetoing one of the hundreds of UNSC resolutions against Israel...

    Israel says it’s ‘disgusting’ for world to take stand on ‘domestic affair’ –settlers

    Just in time for Hanukkah and Christmas, Israel delivers the kind of public craziness on a world stage that Obama needs if he is going to politicize the settlements in the American discourse. At the United Nations, European members of the Security Council are working to condemn Israel's treatment of the out-of-control settlers; and Israel's Foreign Ministry has responded that this is an "internal affair," per Haaretz. Our "domestic affairs," reports the New York Times.
    Also, the rage at the idea that Israel could ever be dragged into international courts expresses perfectly what the Goldstone Report exposed: a culture of impunity.

    Haaretz:

    "The whole debate was conducted in a disgusting manner," a Foreign Ministry official with knowledge of the UNSC proceedings told Haaretz, adding that "Israel was assaulted with every minute detail, mentioning every mosque that was torched and arguing that state authorities weren't doing anything to stop settler attacks against Palestinians."

    Foreign Ministry officials said that the EU representatives "hijacked" the session, when, following it, they decided to release a joint statement detailing the contents of the sealed meeting.


    In the statement the diplomats criticized the council's failure to take action against escalating violence by Israeli settlers and urged a speedy resumption of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.

    Britain's UN Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant, also speaking for EU members France, Germany and Portugal, said "Israel's security and the realization of the Palestinians' right to statehood are not opposing goals."...

    "It's a blatant interference in Israel's internal affairs," one ministry official said, adding that that statement is "a veiled threat that if Israel doesn't prosecute the perpetrators the EU will drag it into international courts," he added.
    Does the UNSC have the authority to intervene in internal affairs? If the US was not a permanent member, could it impose sanctions against the US for the 2000 presidential election or the discrimination against blacks and minorities by the legal system? Does it have any right to sanction Israel for its ongoing oppression of Palestinians in occupied lands? Did it speak out at all about the recent similar affairs in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia?

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

      Ahh, what did those cunt settlers do now. I'm so sick of them.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

        Originally posted by Danny View Post
        There were 400 civilians massacred in Homs yesterday as the army shelled housing complexes. Meanwhile, Russia continues to defend the brutal regime in a way that's sickening to my stomach. Is there anyone here that supports the Russian position of preventing even a meaningless stupid toothless UN resolution when clearly more action is required to stop the killing?
        It's pretty gross, it's certainly killing folks who don't care about politics but are trapped. What do you imagine would happen in the U.S. or Canada if there was an armed insurrection? Even a city that simply refused to cooperate with the government?

        At what point does a sovereign nation lose it's right to remain a sovereign nation?

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

          Originally posted by Danny View Post
          There were 400 civilians massacred in Homs yesterday as the army shelled housing complexes. Meanwhile, Russia continues to defend the brutal regime in a way that's sickening to my stomach. Is there anyone here that supports the Russian position of preventing even a meaningless stupid toothless UN resolution when clearly more action is required to stop the killing?

          The Associated Press (@AP)
          2/4/12 5:28 AM
          Russian foreign minister says he still sees 2 major problems with draft UN resolution on violence in Syria: apne.ws/xVX5HJ

          Sent from my iPhone
          What do you suggest we do to fulfill your "more action is required to stop the killing?" (And no, I do not support Russia's position on this nor do I think yet another UN resolution will do a damn thing about this.)

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

            Originally posted by Formaldehyde View Post
            Does the UNSC have the authority to intervene in internal affairs? If the US was not a permanent member, could it impose sanctions against the US for the 2000 presidential election or the discrimination against blacks and minorities by the legal system? Does it have any right to sanction Israel for its ongoing oppression of Palestinians in occupied lands? Did it speak out at all about the recent similar affairs in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia?
            No. Stolen elections are not a matter for the security council. Why would you suggest this?

            As for the other nations you can read up on what the UN spoke out about. Some cases were more serious than others and more violent than others. Lybia was the gravest and the UN acted. Syria has approached that level where action is needed.

            Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
            What do you suggest we do to fulfill your "more action is required to stop the killing?" (And no, I do not support Russia's position on this nor do I think yet another UN resolution will do a damn thing about this.)
            There are no good options here but the most urgent thing would be to get a UN resolution calling for Assad to step down. If that fails then a NATO resolution would suffice and China and Russia can go fuck themselves for allowing massacre upon massacre to happen because they do business with the Assad regime. Expelling diplomats and crippling sanctions would then be in order. If a blockade is required then so be it. I'm sorry but a genocide is unacceptable and NATO has the means to stop it. I would make Russia and China call our bluff and then re-assess as necessary. One way or another that regime needs to go and I think there are a variety of options which (while not favorable and possibly dangerous) are better than the status quo.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

              *Applauds*

              I know we've only just entered into February, but that there is post of the year materiel.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

                Originally posted by Danny View Post
                No. Stolen elections are not a matter for the security council. Why would you suggest this?
                Because it appears that internal disputes are not the province of the UNSC, except under special conditions which seem to be completely inconsistent? And what about massive discrimination towards blacks and other minorities? Also "not a matter for the security council"?

                Originally posted by Danny View Post
                As for the other nations you can read up on what the UN spoke out about. Some cases were more serious than others and more violent than others. Lybia was the gravest and the UN acted. Syria has approached that level where action is needed.
                Only the UN isn't acting in Libya despite the secret detentions and out-of-control militias.

                BBC News - UN concerns over Libya militias and secret detention

                Libyan militias are holding thousands of people in secret detention centres, while the interim government struggles to assert authority, the UN has heard.

                The Security Council was told recent violence in Tripoli, Bani Walid and Benghazi highlighted the problem.

                More than 8,000 pro-Gaddafi supporters are being held by militia groups, amid reports of torture, UN officials said.

                The charity Medecins Sans Frontieres says it has suspended some operations because its work was being "exploited".

                The humanitarian medical organisation said it had stopped work in detention centres in the north-western city of Misrata because some patients were being brought in for care between interrogation sessions.
                Nor did they ever act in Egypt when a brutal far-right puppet dictator was in power who tortured and murdered hundreds of people for the Bush administration, much less the thousands of their own countrymen who shared the same fate. Nor have they acted in regard to Israel where far more than 450 people were brutally killed in just their last "operation" in Gaza. Do you also think they should have done so in those cases as well? What makes Syria so special while completely ignoring the brutal allies of the US like Bahrain and Saudi Arabia who regularly torture and murder dissidents?

                Originally posted by Danny View Post
                There are no good options here but the most urgent thing would be to get a UN resolution calling for Assad to step down. If that fails then a NATO resolution would suffice and China and Russia can go fuck themselves for allowing massacre upon massacre to happen because they do business with the Assad regime. Expelling diplomats and crippling sanctions would then be in order. If a blockade is required then so be it. I'm sorry but a genocide is unacceptable and NATO has the means to stop it. I would make Russia and China call our bluff and then re-assess as necessary. One way or another that regime needs to go and I think there are a variety of options which (while not favorable and possibly dangerous) are better than the status quo.
                And what about all the people who do nothing with the above situations? Why the apparent double standards? What makes allies of the US exempt, but supposed enemies are not?

                Personally, I think the UN should act in all these cases, especially when it involves the US and our allies. After all, who else is going to possibly stand up to the only remaining superpower when it killed over 100,000 Iraqis, many through "collateral damage", after invading a sovereign country on the basis of lies and deceit? And that was even after the UN specifically told them they had no right to do so...
                Last edited by Formaldehyde; 02-04-2012, 11:28 AM.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Formaldehyde View Post
                  Because it appears that internal disputes are not the province of the UNSC, except under special conditions which seem to be completely inconsistent? And what about massive discrimination towards blacks and other minorities? Also "not a matter for the security council"?

                  Only the UN isn't acting in Libya despite the secret detentions and out-of-control militias.

                  BBC News - UN concerns over Libya militias and secret detention



                  Nor did they ever act in Egypt when a brutal far-right puppet dictator was in power who tortured and murdered hundreds of people for the Bush administration, much less the thousands of their own countrymen who shared the same fate. Nor have they acted in regard to Israel where far more than 450 people were brutally killed in just their last "operation" in Gaza. Do you also think they should have done so in those cases as well? What makes Syria so special while completely ignoring the brutal allies of the US like Bahrain and Saudi Arabia who regularly torture and murder dissidents?

                  And what about all the people who do nothing with the above situations? Why the apparent double standards? What makes allies of the US exempt, but supposed enemies are not?

                  Personally, I think the UN should act in all these cases, especially when it involves the US and our allies. After all, who else is going to possibly stand up to the only remaining superpower when it killed over 100,000 Iraqis, many through "collateral damage", after invading a sovereign country on the basis of lies and deceit? And that was even after the UN specifically told them they had no right to do so...
                  The UNSC should not act in non life threatening incidents like elections or discrimination. If some OWS protestor gets pepper sprayed this is not a matter for the council. What should be a matter for the council are the gravest of situations where there is routine systematic killing and targeting of civilians. Bahrain, israel or egypt didn't fall under this but Libya did and Syria is. Bahrain is not ongoing, Egypt was not on the same scale and israel's operation in Gaza had a goal to route out specific ppl firing rockets. It's a question of the level of violence. Do you see the consistent approach and differences between the situations? There is a clear and consistent standard here.

                  As for Iraq I cannot defend the reckless cowboy diplomacy practices by the Bush administration. Untold damage was done to not only the US but western credibility.

                  Thank you Traveler thats very kind of you.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

                    You're welcome my friend. Ann Coulter said that Tony Blair was the world's only patriotic liberal but i'm pretty sure she'd add you to the list as well. I do wish more conservatives would step up to the plate on the issue of Syria - its beggars belief the way we have suddenly turned on the idea of interventionism. The one area i have definately wanted our foreign policy to be a bit more aggressive is on intervention and while i am glad we stepped up to the plate on Libya it seems the air defense of Syria is one step too far for some nations to stop selling weapons to (i.e. Russia mainly). Whilst the ambition of an international mandate seems admirable and a noble cause, i think it is now going to have to go down the route of a coalition of the willing, with the US and UK heading up the mission again. We will likely see several ambassadors in Damascus recalled soon along with diplomats in capitals round the world being expelled from Syrian embassies. The one thing that has largely gone unnpticed about this President is his awareness of historical timing/anniversaries etc, and going into Libya 8 years to the day of the Iraq anniversary and the timing of the current visit to the UNSC by Susan Rice indicates a similar timing for the Syrian mision by all accounts. We will likely have to go in, and without Russia and China on board, but it is an inevitability of when rather than if.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

                      Originally posted by Danny View Post
                      The UNSC should not act in non life threatening incidents like elections or discrimination. If some OWS protestor gets pepper sprayed this is not a matter for the council. What should be a matter for the council are the gravest of situations where there is routine systematic killing and targeting of civilians. Bahrain, israel or egypt didn't fall under this but Libya did and Syria is. Bahrain is not ongoing, Egypt was not on the same scale and israel's operation in Gaza had a goal to route out specific ppl firing rockets. It's a question of the level of violence. Do you see the consistent approach and differences between the situations? There is a clear and consistent standard here.
                      How do you know with any certainty that there is a "routine systematic killing and targeting of civilians"? By the propaganda being spewed by those who are carrying out combat operations against the government? And in the case of Libya, by the head of the Libyan insurgency who was arrested by the US, handed over to the Libyan government, and tortured for being a known al-Qaida operative?

                      Syria military offensive in Damascus suburbs aims to drive out rebels



                      Syria launched a major military offensive to seize back parts of Damascus under de facto rebel control on Sunday, a day after the Arab League said it was abandoning its monitoring mission in the face of out-of-control violence.

                      Government forces killed at least 19 people, activists said, in some of the bloodiest fighting in the capital since Syria's 10-month uprising began. Witnesses inside Damascus described scenes of mayhem, with troops shelling residential areas and fierce house-to-house fighting.


                      "It's urban war. There are bodies in the street," one activist, speaking from the suburb of Kfar Batna, told Reuters.

                      Around 2,000 troops, together with at least 50 tanks and armoured vehicles, began a major operation at dawn, when they headed towards the al-Ghouta area in eastern Damascus. The foray was part of a wider offensive against the suburbs of Saqba, Hammouriya and Kfar Batna, activists said.

                      Video footage showed tanks trundling forward, followed by government soldiers on foot. The army pushed deep into the centre of Kfar Batna. Witnesses reported four tanks in the main square.

                      Activists said 14 civilians and five insurgents from the opposition Free Syrian Army (FSA) were killed. Gruesome unconfirmed video showed the mangled bodies of what appeared to be civilians caught by mortar or shellfire.
                      The insurgency, which is still raging in towns and cities across Syria - with further protests in Aleppo on Sunday — has now definitively reached the capital. The suburbs are made up of conservative Sunni Muslim towns, surrounded by countryside and farmland, known as the al-Ghouta.
                      It sounds like civil war to me, much like what occurred in Libya. This isn't innocent protesters being mowed down by a brutal government. It is a war against an armed insurgency, many of whom are Syrian soldiers who have switched sides.

                      It is tragic when any civilians are killed. But we really don't know the facts. Like with Libya, we really don't know how popular one side is versus the other. It is all speculation based on how "evil" one side supposedly is, even when the other side are being led by known terrorists, as was the case with Libya. It is just so much speculation with very little fact.

                      And no, I don't see the difference between tolerating the torture and murder of Gadaffi supporters in Libya as being any different than this, just as I don't see the difference in not intervening when the US was turning a blind eye to Mubarak torturing and murdering thousands of innocent people, many of whom were done so at the request of the US. In those cases, there wasn't a civil war to rationalize any civilians deaths without fair trials.
                      Last edited by Formaldehyde; 02-04-2012, 04:15 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

                        These Syrians aren't willing to do much more than take to the streets, but the Americans had a revolution over a matter of taxes. These Syrians aren't willing to fight even though their government is actively killing citizens. The best they can muster in the face of a government killing citizens is to have a march. Instead they're hoping that foreigners swoop in and do all the fighting for them. I don't recall the Civil Rights movement calling for foreigners to swoop in and demand that the U.S. government give minorities equal rights. Why are we expected to fight this battle for Syrians? We didn't do it for the South Africans and we didn't do it for the Sudanese. Why are these lazy Syrians so special? Are they promising oil contracts to us at discount prices?

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                        • #13
                          Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

                          Wow...what a dispicible post, even by your standards Ajax.

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                          • #14
                            Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

                            Originally posted by Traveler View Post
                            Wow...what a dispicible post, even by your standards Ajax.
                            The only thing despicable is the fact that these Syrians expect us to fight this battle for them.

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                            • #15
                              Re: 400 civilians killed in Homs, Syria and Russia dithers

                              Yeah, go ahead and keep blaming the victims Ajax...next time when you get shot at for simply sticking your head out the window or going out onto the street i'm sure you'll forgive us for calling you "lazy".

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