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Oh, what a tangled web we have woven...

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  • Oh, what a tangled web we have woven...

    As we know, the middle east has been in flames since we first started imposing ourselves more upon that area of the world, and now those flames over the last few years have erupted into a vast wildfire, with it starting other fires to the surrounding areas. That could be said of the Arab Spring, which the CIA was involved in, up to their eyeballs, but it is only getting worse, and much more dangerous to world security. While China is a partner of Iran, they have not involved themselves much, overtly into the middle east, perhaps being the smartest of the nations of the world. But that could very well change, and that is why the escalation going on in the middle east now, the dangerous sectarian divide that has been given a shot of steroids, might eventually bring China in more so, in support of Iran, who it vowed at one time to defend, given the economic investment of china in Iran's oil industry. For it is clear, that the Sunni Saudis and other sunni arabs are escalating their conflict with Iran, and Shiites in general. A call for a Holy War against the Shiites for 55 Saudi clerics, leaves no doubt where the Saudis stand. And the fact that these clerics are supporting ALL the sunni forces in Syria, fighting the Shiite Assad.

    CAIRO The Shiite leaders of Iran and the Sunni rulers of Saudi Arabia traded insults over the deaths of hundreds of Iranian pilgrims near Mecca. The government of Bahrain, long criticized for repressing the countrys Shiite majority, expelled the Iranian ambassador, after accusing Iran of shipping arms to Bahrain and trying to foment sectarian strife.
    And a group of hard-line Sunni clerics in Saudi Arabia, fired up by Russias intervention in Syria, issued a scathing sectarian call for holy war.
    Events over the last few weeks have raised fears of an accelerating confrontation between the regions Shiite and Sunni Muslims, with Saudi Arabia and Iran escalating their power struggle, extremists attacking Shiite mosques in the Persian Gulf and armed conflict aggravating religious differences in Iraq, Syria and now Yemen.
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    But as the violence flares and crosses borders, national and religious leaders seem as eager as ever to stoke the fires, mobilizing followers using implicit or naked sectarian appeals that are transforming political conflicts into religious struggles and making the bloodshed in the region harder to contain, scholars and analysts say.
    This is unprecedented, and we dont have a road map, said Rami Khouri, a senior fellow at the Issam Fares Institute at the American University of Beirut. When political dynamics fail, people turn back to religion. We are in this terrible moment of transition where sect is very high in peoples minds.
    Radical individuals are deliberately fomenting this violence, he added. And irresponsible governments allow it to happen.
    The perils of sectarian polarization have been evident for more than a decade, since the United States-led invasion and occupation of Iraq. In the last few years, tensions have been inflamed by the war in Syria.
    The latest violent turn has been ratcheted up by the Iranian-Saudi conflict, Mr. Khouri said. Irans latest broadsides over the pilgrims deaths near the Saudi city of Mecca during the hajj came as the Gulf states have taken an increasingly hard line against what they call Irans meddling in the region going so far as to mount a large-scale military offensive in Yemen aimed at defeating a rebel group they say is allied with the Iranians.
    As the Sunni monarchies have rallied their citizens for war, the rulers seem ill prepared for the potential fallout: Several times over the last few months, Sunni extremists have carried out deadly attacks on Shiite mosques in the Persian Gulf. The latest was on Friday, when a gunman in Saudi Arabias Eastern Province killed five Shiite worshipers.
    Troubling another fault line, Russias decision to intervene in Syria alongside the government of President Bashar al-Assad, Iran and Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite militia, brought calls for retaliation from hard-line Saudi clerics known as Salafis, but also mainstream Islamist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which referred to Mr. Assad as a treacherous Alawite criminal.
    The Saudi clerics, denigrating their longtime adversaries, including Shiite Muslims and Alawites, who practice an offshoot of Shiite Islam, also took aim at the Orthodox crusader Russia, which they said was picking up where the Soviet force driven from Afghanistan by Muslims more than a generation ago had left off.
    In an online statement signed by 55 clerics, they warned that if the holy warriors were defeated in Syria, Sunni nations would also fall one after the other.
    Madawi al-Rasheed, a visiting professor at the Middle East Center of the London School of Economics, said the strong sectarian tone of the statement represented the sort of pronouncements that have made the regions hostilities harder and harder to arrest.
    The language of sectarianism involves elimination and purification, and these are very dangerous words to use in any conflict, Dr. Rasheed said. It makes it more difficult to see a space for dialogue and political solutions or compromises. Religious conflicts are more difficult to resolve than political ones.
    By invoking Afghanistan, the letter conjured the image of martyrdom and fighting the infidels, she said, portending a longer war.
    Hassan Hassan, an associate fellow at Chatham House in Britain and a co-author of ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror, said that Russian involvement in Syria had the potential to be a mobilizing factor for Sunnis, and not just extremists. There are ordinary people angered by the war and convinced that the great powers, including the United States, are colluding to prop up Mr. Assads government.
    You dont have to be a jihadist to think this is a dirty game, he said.
    The latest irritant is the war in Yemen, where a coalition of Sunni states, backed by the United States, is fighting a Shiite-led rebel group known as the Houthis. The Saudi-led coalition has framed the intervention in part as an effort to beat back the regional influence of Iran.
    There was a collective Gulf need to stand up to expansionist Iran, Abdulkhaleq Abdulla, a professor of political science from the United Arab Emirates, wrote last week in an opinion piece in Gulf News, explaining the decision by the Emirates to go to war. Yemen was the place to draw the line.
    Many outside observers, including former and current United States officials, believe the Gulf states have wildly overstated the degree of Iranian influence over the Houthis. And the rebels, also exaggerating, have sent fighters, including teenagers, to battle, with the admonition that all their opponents are Sunni extremists.
    Yemen has been left to face the increasingly ominous consequences of the war, including a sharpening of sectarianism. As states become weaker, as in Syria and Iraq, the absence of a dominant political authority creates the conditions in which extremism and appeals to religious identity flourish, analysts say.
    There is no leadership, no government and no state, said Farea al-Muslimi, a visiting scholar from Yemen at the Carnegie Middle East Center in Beirut. There is no national agenda, and a lot of guns.
    He said that signs of greater polarization had started to emerge in the last few years, as the Houthis battled Salafis in northern Yemen. In the lead-up to the war in March, the Houthis stormed Sana, the capital, and escalated their conflict with hard-line Sunnis, including Al Qaedas local branch. Moderate political figures were assassinated by gunmen in the streets of Sana and Aden, in the south.
    One day, a Saudi satellite channel reported a suicide attack at a mosque after the war started, referring to the place as a Houthi mosque, Mr. Muslimi said, though Yemens Zaydi Shiites are considered doctrinally closer to Sunni than to mainstream Shiite Islam, and Shiites and Sunnis often worship together.
    I thought, We have crossed a line. Welcome to Iraq. Welcome to Syria, Mr. Muslimi said.
    With armies, religious militias and extremist groups on the march across the region, the moderates have lost, said Dr. Abdulla, the Emirati professor.
    The forces of extremism have been unleashed in a powerful way we have not seen before, he said. Is this the furthest we can go? Maybe not.

    So, we are largely responsible for creating such an environment in the ME. But if we have learned anything, what would be our best course going forward?

  • #2
    Where where all these calls for "holy war" prior to 1979?


    • #3
      Holy War is not a new or recent thing:


      • #4
        Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
        Holy War is not a new or recent thing:
        But thankfully Christianity and Judaism, mostly evolved out of that insanity, while Islam, being founded by a warrior and killer, cannot seem to do it. It would be deserting the religion and not minding Mohammed, resulting in hot hellfire instead of hot virgins.

        In ancient times, war were fought over simpler things, like resources and taking the people you defeat, women. Then man fought wars over religious beliefs, created by thought, a religious ideology, finally evolving to fighting a war over political ideology, and now, the oligarchy American Empire, is fighting over resources again, in the form of giving big business and the banking cabal more wealth, taken from those that can be exploited. With a big of faux ideology thrown in, just to fool people, who believe in that ideology.

        But given that America has helped to totally destabilize the middle east, still the most important supplier of oil for the fossil fuel dependent world, what is the most intelligent way forward when it comes to US policy and action in the middle east? More of the same, so we can fulfill Einstein's definition of insanity, of repeating the same action, while expecting different results?

        Do we continue to side with the sunnis, because the Saudis are sunni, over the Shiites? So do we see the fact that America was attacked by arab sunnis, and not Persian Shiites? Do we see that the Saudis are just as theocratically evil and barbaric as the Shiites, and we are siding with rabid dogs if we side with either?

        Given this, making a run for our aircraft in those areas, and getting on them and flying the hell back to the US, leaving behind only boot prints seems the only path to take. And shooting that desert quagmire, the bird on the way out, once and for all. The Saudi sunnis, a radical sect, and the conservative Shiites in Iran need to fight this out, without any assistance from us, in any form, and let the dust settle where it will. Sometimes a war is the only solution, especially with a people, from cultures, that still live in the 8th century, and can only be handled with brute force, savagery and a war to settle things. That is the only thing these tribes understand, and this is also something americans, cannot understand. We think other cultures are not really different from ours, and people are the same everywhere, wanting what the average American wants. It ain't necessarily so, and this fact has led to some stupid acts on our part, dictated by so called intelligent men who possessed really good judgment. But, clearly, these men possessed neither intelligence nor great judgment.

        So, since our rulers, as evidenced by the state of the middle east, is an American made disaster, got it completely wrong, how would you get it right?


        • #5
          Yeah, it's all caused by America. Of course there was no America in the 7th century.

          There were also a number of periods of infighting among Muslims; these are known by the term Fitna and mostly concern the early period of Islam, from the 7th to 11th centuries, i.e. before the collapse of the Caliphate and the emergence of the various later Islamic empires.


          • #6
            Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
            Yeah, it's all caused by America. Of course there was no America in the 7th century.
            Didn't you hear? George Washington stole the Tardis and burned the fatwa Mohammed was about to issue naming a successor.


            • #7
              It's funny that folks think we totally destabilized the mid-east since Bush 2 or it was our reaction to those big bad Iranians in 1979. Here's a good breakdown of our interventions written August 1991, a history of coups, military intervention, and assassinations and it wasn't about relegion unless you consider the worship of money religion...


              • #8
                Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                Yeah, it's all caused by America. Of course there was no America in the 7th century.
                America did not create Islam, nor its two primary factions, that hate one another, and accuse the other of apostasy. But what we did do, was to by military force, destabalize an important oil region of the world, by creating power vacuums, by breaking international law. The reason we created those laws at nuremburg was to a avoid what you see in the middle east today, when you remove leaders in a tribalized religous society, that took a long time in creating some stability, by the leaders we removed and killed. Only an idiot, would think that muslims want to be and act like americans.

                We no longer have intelligent men in DC running this nation. When we stopped electing normal men with vices, we ended up getting abnormal men, and not the smartest. We end up with mentally dysfunctional men, who just are not bright enough to understand what our actions in a place like the middle east will inevitably lead to.



                • #9
                  It wasn't the recent crew of losers that threw a coup in Iran for oil contracts ...