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Name 1 Justified War?

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  • Name 1 Justified War?

    Can you name 1 war in the history of mankind that was justified? I mean a war that is justifiable for BOTH sides to fight.

    When I think of the earliest wars they may have been a matter of survival - for one side. Typically the aggressor wages war not to survive but as a means of thriving. Here I think of the Vikings pillaging settlements in Britain. In modern times, the war that most seems justifiable is WWII. This would mean Hitler was right (to a point) and it is hard to accept that given how thoroughly demonized he has become.

    Anyway, the inspiration for this thread is a book I am reading from one of the greatest authors of all-time, Leo Tolstoy. It is not what he is best known for but is a provocative book called The Kingdom of God Is Within You. The entire book is an analysis of one sentence from the greatest sermon of all-time. Jesus said in The Sermon on the Mount not to oppose evil. So, I also invite you to share your thoughts on the practical limits and problems of this command. My thought is Jesus recognizes evil is like a kite that needs resistance to take full shape. It is hard to imagine what is more evil in the human experience than the horrors of war. As a civilized man, one tends to avoid killing on principle. The starting point of war is to revert to the law of the jungle; starting with killing as many people as quickly as possible. Thus, war seems to aim at the exact opposite of the command of Christ, oppose evil to the last full measure.

  • #2
    Re: Name 1 Justified War?

    I figure that the US Civil War probably fits the mold. Nothing is really cut and dry when it comes to this kind of thing but the preservation of States rights was (is) a worthy cause as is the preservation of the union.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Re: Name 1 Justified War?

      You hold preservation of a union by force is justified? One wonders just what kind of union is being preserved.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Re: Name 1 Justified War?

        I cannot name a war that was justified on both sides. The only justified reason to me for ever going to war is in self defense, real self defense. That is, you are attacked and you either defend yourself or you die.

        In regards to not resisting evil, are you talking about this passage...

        38 ^ Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and
        a tooth for a tooth :

        39 But I say unto you, Resist not him that is evil : but
        whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also
        If so this seems to me to address personal behavior that would seek to get revenge, to pay back in the same manner as one was injured or harmed. I never felt this was to mean that if someone was trying to take your life, to simply allow it. But only because life is hardwired to defend its very life, and as someone is choking the life out of you, one might try to just allow the attacker to kill you, but as the O2 is cut off, the will to survive over rides everything and you will try and struggle to fight against this. Something else takes over, and its hardwired in.

        People who are insulted or harmed non lethally tend to afterwards sit and stew in the hatred and the thoughts arise to get even, to make the other guy pay. I think this is what he was really addressing. This is the movement of the ego, which seeks gratification in glorifying itself, and there is great pleasure in getting even, which is not the same as being hardwired to survive, to protect the life within you.

        The Creator put that will to survive, the will to continue on in all of his lifeforms, and part of that is that life fighting against whatever is trying to take his life. I don't see that as selfishness, but intelligence. If not for that intelligence and the will to survive most of us would commit suicide at some point in time.

        Spiritual teachings have to make sense, and recognize the reality of the physical limitations. They have to work. They have to be within the realm of possibility.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Re: Name 1 Justified War?

          At the time of the Civil War it was rather obvious that the nation would exist from ocean to ocean one way or another. The only real question was whether or not it would do so with or without slavery which was (is) a concept completely outside the bounds of individual liberty. The preservation of the union was essential for the preservation of liberty.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Re: Name 1 Justified War?

            But per John's query, were both sides justified to fight such a war? I think we lost more americans in that war than all of the others combined. You wanta have a high loss of life? Pit americans against americans.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Re: Name 1 Justified War?

              Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
              But per John's query, were both sides justified to fight such a war? I think we lost more americans in that war than all of the others combined. You wanta have a high loss of life? Pit americans against americans.
              "Justified" is pretty much in the eye of the beholder.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Re: Name 1 Justified War?

                Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                I cannot name a war that was justified on both sides. The only justified reason to me for ever going to war is in self defense, real self defense. That is, you are attacked and you either defend yourself or you die.

                In regards to not resisting evil, are you talking about this passage... If so this seems to me to address personal behavior that would seek to get revenge, to pay back in the same manner as one was injured or harmed.
                Yes, I am talking about Mathew 5:39, which reads as a single sentence in NIV: But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. And I think your take on not reacting for revenge is spot on. And this leads to the question of justifiable war. Harry Browne said war is just another big government program. I am realizing how true it is.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Re: Name 1 Justified War?

                  Originally posted by Lutherf View Post
                  The preservation of the union was essential for the preservation of liberty.
                  I do not want to divert this thread but I disagree. Other countries resolved their slavery issue without resorting to war. And the war did not preserve liberty, either for the States or the slaves. It enslaved the States to the imperial power and freed the privately owned slaves at the expense of the owners who rightfully paid for them while letting the Northern sellers off the hook completely.

                  (̅_̅_̅(̅(̅_̅_̅_̅_̅_̅̅()ڪ

                  Originally posted by Lutherf View Post
                  "Justified" is pretty much in the eye of the beholder.
                  Again, I disagree. Justice is about balancing the scales. We can judge the scale for ourselves but first we need to hear the argument that they are balanced and why.
                  Last edited by JohnLocke; 06-22-2013, 06:13 AM.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Re: Name 1 Justified War?

                    "Justified war" just means for a good or legitimate reason. Therefor, it is easy to both argue for as well as against any war in history as being justified. Comes down to the point of view. You would think if there is any truth at all to the notion of life being sacred then there is little justification in any war. The reality is we know life is not all that sacred, and the stronger desire for societal control (or escaping from) will always be a backdrop for justifiable war. You end up with theory about can war be justified if it meets certain criteria, and that tends to fall into points of view starting with political or religious reasons.

                    Consider that based upon point of view there will always be criteria to justify a fight against slavery or some other civil rights matter, a fight against genocide, a fight against communism, a fight against some foreign aggression, a fight against one's own oppressive government, a fight against some other religon or ideology, etc. We always have reason, but it ends up being history book lessons on being justified.

                    Take a war, WWII. Take the US perspective. You can make a strong case that the US position in that war was justified as we were fighting using several criteria above, even with the resulting loss of life around the globe including our own. To argue against US involvement in WWII is more tricky as it becomes easy to point out that without our involvement several consequences are likely. One, the US would be much weaker today. Two, Europe would look very different today. So would North Africa, parts of the Pacific, and parts of the Middle East. You could argue well that Germany and Japan would be the victors of the war. Three, we could talk all day about the effects on Judaism. I am sure there are others.

                    Now, take the same war and insert the German perspective. Changes things does it not? But I bet we can find a few Germans who would argue justification. Many of us could argue all day against.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      Re: Name 1 Justified War?

                      Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                      "Justified war" just means ...
                      Yea, I am not looking for definitions and perspectives. I am looking for someone to make the case of justified war, period.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #12
                        Re: Name 1 Justified War?

                        Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
                        Yea, I am not looking for definitions and perspectives. I am looking for someone to make the case of justified war, period.
                        I did, if you had read the rest of the post.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #13
                          Re: Name 1 Justified War?

                          Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
                          Yea, I am not looking for definitions and perspectives. I am looking for someone to make the case of justified war, period.
                          Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                          I did, if you had read the rest of the post.
                          No you did not.

                          Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                          Now, take the same war and insert the German perspective. Changes things does it not? But I bet we can find a few Germans who would argue justification. Many of us could argue all day against.
                          As I said, I am not looking for definitions and perspectives. I am also not looking for speculations and bets. Are you arguing that WWII was justified for Germany, Italy and Japan in addition to their enemies, the Allies?

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #14
                            Re: Name 1 Justified War?

                            Before you write a book based on the words of Jesus you should understand what Jesus was saying.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #15
                              Re: Name 1 Justified War?

                              Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
                              No you did not.
                              Sure I did, you may not like it but I made a argument that US involvement in WWII was justified. On several criteria.

                              Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
                              As I said, I am not looking for definitions and perspectives. I am also not looking for speculations and bets. Are you arguing that WWII was justified for Germany, Italy and Japan in addition to their enemies, the Allies?
                              No, I offered that there might be someone who might take that position. Again read the post.

                              What it comes down to is perspective, even if you are just asking me to put mine alone in your thread here. Here you are reading a book about "not to oppose evil" and asking all of us if any war can be justified. A perspective put in a book yet no one else can mention that? Put your money where your mouth is. Can you do the same in justifying a war or are you in agreement with the concept (perspective) you are reading about?

                              You mentioned WWII as well, I assumed we were in agreement.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?

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