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Obama negotiates "peace in his time"...

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  • Re: Obama negotiates &quot;peace in his time&quot;...

    Originally posted by FearandLoathing View Post
    Designedly so, and it achieved the desired result.

    Thank you.

    Keep ignoring the evidence, the other nations and so forth who are seriously questioning the deal to attack the poster and not the post as you just did.
    You haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.

    Thanks for playing.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

      Originally posted by jet57 View Post
      Concerens and comdemnation are tow different things. It's only smart to have valid concerns: we always had valid concerns with respect to the USSR. Valid well thought concerns are valubale in policy and negotiations, but calling the president a liar and disrepecting the position; just because the right-wing doesn't like him is only the height of stupidity merely feeds the foreign opposition.
      Agreed. While there have been people calling Obama a liar on the Iranian agreement, I don't believe that I've posted anything in that vein.

      On ObamaCare, well that's a completely different thing, and well justified in calling him a liar on that.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

        Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
        Agreed. While there have been people calling Obama a liar on the Iranian agreement, I don't believe that I've posted anything in that vein.

        On ObamaCare, well that's a completely different thing, and well justified in calling him a liar on that.
        I was speaking in general terms with respect to being just anti Obama.

        On ACA, I really don't think he lied as much as he wasn't thinking of those junk policies when he made the statement, and of course now he's sorry that he didn't do his homework.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

          Originally posted by Commodore View Post
          Correct. What did the Iranians give?
          We seem to keep asking that question and not get anywhere.

          What did Iran surrender to earn the release of $800 billion?

          I would think it's a straightforward question.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

            Originally posted by FearandLoathing View Post
            We seem to keep asking that question and not get anywhere.

            What did Iran surrender to earn the release of $800 billion?

            I would think it's a straightforward question.
            They backed off. And in world terms 800 billion is chump change.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

              Originally posted by jet57 View Post
              I was speaking in general terms with respect to being just anti Obama.

              On ACA, I really don't think he lied as much as he wasn't thinking of those junk policies when he made the statement, and of course now he's sorry that he didn't do his homework.
              Not to derail this thread or anything, but I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this point.
              It's not like the Democrats, nor the President, nor the administration didn't 'know' about this, no matter what sort of fancy spin, tortured rationalizations, and outright lies are being told to the more than receptive and complicit if you ask me, media.On September 29, 2010, Senate Democrats voted unanimously against a resolution that would have allowed Americans to keep their insurance plans. Every Democrat voted against it.
              S.J.RES.39 (Bill Summary & Status - 111th Congress (2009 - 2010) - S.J.RES.39 - THOMAS (Library of Congress))
              Latest Title: A joint resolution providing for congressional disapproval under chapter 8 of title 5, United States Code, of the rule relating to status as a grandfathered health plan under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.
              Sponsor: Sen Enzi, Michael B. [WY] (introduced 9/21/2010) Cosponsors (None)
              Latest Major Action: 9/29/2010 Senate floor actions. Status: Motion to proceed to consideration of measure rejected in Senate by Yea-Nay Vote. 40 - 59. Record Vote Number: 244.
              Are you trying to tell me that Obama didn't know about this Senate vote on the grandfathering clause? That's he'd be that divorced from developments such as significant votes to his signature piece of legislation?

              No, I can't give Obama this over-sized benefit of doubt. It's almost like suspending disbelief.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
                Not to derail this thread or anything, but I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this point.


                Are you trying to tell me that Obama didn't know about this Senate vote on the grandfathering clause? That's he'd be that divorced from developments such as significant votes to his signature piece of legislation?

                No, I can't give Obama this over-sized benefit of doubt. It's almost like suspending disbelief.
                Yes; not to derail: we can start a thread, so last reply on it. I'm saying that everything not withstanding, I just don't think Obama gave any thought at all; at the time he was preparing and making those statements, to these junk $50 a month policies. I'd even lay odds that that type of junk never ocurred to him! (it's not real health insurance anyway: we're still stuck paying for that can't afford). So I don't think Obama was lying so much as he just put his foot in his mouth.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                  Originally posted by jet57 View Post
                  They backed off. And in world terms 800 billion is chump change.
                  Doesn't matter. They shouldn't get it.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                    Originally posted by The Extreme View Post
                    Doesn't matter. They shouldn't get it.
                    And you base that on what theory?

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                      Originally posted by jet57 View Post
                      And you base that on what theory?
                      I would rather spend 800 billion making sure the citizens of the United States are fed and clothed than some piece of shit Muslim country that hates us.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                        Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
                        I would rather spend 800 billion making sure the citizens of the United States are fed and clothed than some piece of shit Muslim country that hates us.
                        I'd rather keep $800 billion in the hands of the citizens. If the US was not taking in record levels of wealth right out of the hands of the citizens as tax revenues we might have one hell of an economy by now.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                          Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                          I'd rather keep $800 billion in the hands of the citizens. If the US was not taking in record levels of wealth right out of the hands of the citizens as tax revenues we might have one hell of an economy by now.
                          An economy consisting of what? Walmarts and burger stands?

                          I will submit to you that since the manufacturing and the purchase of goods has driven most economies since the industrial revolution when industry replaced agriculture as a means to earn a wage which is needed to live, that if you give away your manufacturing end and only keep the retail, there is no room for this economy to blossom and do great things as it once did for average people.

                          I say that the current model of offshoring more and more manufacturing is a death nail in the American coffin, if you take into consideration the hundreds of millions of average human beings who are not capable of those jobs that require above average brains.

                          And I also say that if taxes were lower, going into this depression as it affects average people that this would have only provided more money to be sent overseas, which is then not brought back to be taxed. And even if it were brought back with no taxes charged that this money would be reinvested overseas where you can exploit the poor for their labor, since labor costs are still one of the greatest costs on any P and L statement.

                          I do not believe that the current economic model can be helped by lower taxes, unless you want another walmart built or another fast food joint, a chain. In fact, I think taxes will have to go up in order to take care of the displaced americans, and the new workers who join the workforce each year when they reach that working age. This will have to occur because we no longer make what we consume, and you cannot remove industry that was where many americans worked and not have something to replace it that average people can do in order to earn their living.

                          To me this is the most simplest of all common sense. That is, if you take away jobs, manufacturing, and have nothing that pays the living wages it produced, that average people can do, you can drop taxes to 1 per cent and watch that money head offshore. Unless of course you can convince the American people to work for 80 cents an hour. Which you can't.

                          Our economy is still one based upon consumption as most modern, advanced economies are. And if you stop making what our people buy, you are gonna run into some very grave problems, and being optimistic about it doesn't change reality. And to try to create jobs by reducing taxes no longer works as it did when we made what we consumed. You know how that worked surely. More money from less taxes gave the consumers more money to spend, a greater demand for widgets. The factory owners had extra money from lower taxes to build new factories, or expand existing factories, which meant hiring more people. So reducing taxes made sense in that sort of economy. Yet we lost it. And now we want to do the things that worked when we made what we consumed, employing our own consumers, and we no longer have that economic model that would respond to such moves. We need to do something entirely different, suited for this change in economic paradigm, yet we have so many that seem to think the old ways would still work. I don't believe they will. Not when having more money to invest leaves this nation, and then stays offshore. Not when giving the consumers more money through lower taxes is spent on consumer goods no longer made here unless you want to buy a car. Hell, even the manufactured construction materials isn't made here anymore, but china. So new construction helps out the MNCs in china but it doesn't employ americans. And that is a helluva problem and one that lower taxes will never solve.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                            An economy consisting of what? Walmarts and burger stands?

                            I will submit to you that since the manufacturing and the purchase of goods has driven most economies since the industrial revolution when industry replaced agriculture as a means to earn a wage which is needed to live, that if you give away your manufacturing end and only keep the retail, there is no room for this economy to blossom and do great things as it once did for average people.

                            I say that the current model of offshoring more and more manufacturing is a death nail in the American coffin, if you take into consideration the hundreds of millions of average human beings who are not capable of those jobs that require above average brains.

                            And I also say that if taxes were lower, going into this depression as it affects average people that this would have only provided more money to be sent overseas, which is then not brought back to be taxed. And even if it were brought back with no taxes charged that this money would be reinvested overseas where you can exploit the poor for their labor, since labor costs are still one of the greatest costs on any P and L statement.

                            I do not believe that the current economic model can be helped by lower taxes, unless you want another walmart built or another fast food joint, a chain. In fact, I think taxes will have to go up in order to take care of the displaced americans, and the new workers who join the workforce each year when they reach that working age. This will have to occur because we no longer make what we consume, and you cannot remove industry that was where many americans worked and not have something to replace it that average people can do in order to earn their living.

                            To me this is the most simplest of all common sense. That is, if you take away jobs, manufacturing, and have nothing that pays the living wages it produced, that average people can do, you can drop taxes to 1 per cent and watch that money head offshore. Unless of course you can convince the American people to work for 80 cents an hour. Which you can't.

                            Our economy is still one based upon consumption as most modern, advanced economies are. And if you stop making what our people buy, you are gonna run into some very grave problems, and being optimistic about it doesn't change reality. And to try to create jobs by reducing taxes no longer works as it did when we made what we consumed. You know how that worked surely. More money from less taxes gave the consumers more money to spend, a greater demand for widgets. The factory owners had extra money from lower taxes to build new factories, or expand existing factories, which meant hiring more people. So reducing taxes made sense in that sort of economy. Yet we lost it. And now we want to do the things that worked when we made what we consumed, employing our own consumers, and we no longer have that economic model that would respond to such moves. We need to do something entirely different, suited for this change in economic paradigm, yet we have so many that seem to think the old ways would still work. I don't believe they will. Not when having more money to invest leaves this nation, and then stays offshore. Not when giving the consumers more money through lower taxes is spent on consumer goods no longer made here unless you want to buy a car. Hell, even the manufactured construction materials isn't made here anymore, but china. So new construction helps out the MNCs in china but it doesn't employ americans. And that is a helluva problem and one that lower taxes will never solve.
                            I disagree. Our economic model has been harmed more by government intervention to date than helped by it, including dealing with a decreasing manufacturing and production economy to a more consumer debt based economy.

                            In the short term what seems to be holding us back the most is uncertainty about whatever the next government action will be. A classic example is what Obamacare did to small and large business, another would be debt ceiling after debt ceiling resulting in threats of default and direct harm to the government deficit spending dependent economic model we have now. You add in uncertainty about Fed action keeping our markets very bullish and pushing on profit and not growth you can see what the government (and the Fed) is doing is setting up a down the road failure of some kind.

                            You could even argue well that government intervention lead the way to shift away from manufacturing and production economic model. Doing so for self-serving reasons. A good example and predictable effect is our relations with China, that is now a two way economic and fiscal policy dependent relationship for both governments. Another, somewhat lesser, would be India.

                            I have all the evidence I need that our economic model designed by our government is harmful, only made worse by the wealth they extract at now record levels in tax revenues. The wealth gap is at its worst. Headline inflation vs. PCE inflation directly harmed every income quintile except the top, and as such movement up the income quintile is at its worst. Wages are flat and overall employment issues tell us the core economic concern is still aggregate demand. Something all these bailouts, stimulus spending sprees, and government pet projects has not addressed. When it comes to spending as a percentage of GDP vs. tax revenues we are not only going the wrong direction but also we are way above the last time the government actually had a real debt reducing surplus.

                            Even Keynes tells us in this situation we should get the government out of the way, and allow the economy to take a little risk. Allow the economic cycle to develop out of a trough that I would argue the present government is keeping us in. Entrepreneurship, innovation and market risk can still be economically impacting if we allowed it to happen, if we allowed capital to stay in the hands of those that actually create jobs. Present management is not interested in that, it would cost them votes. The only caveat to that would be that government would have to get out of the business of only helping big business by enslaving other nation's populace we now call "partners."
                            Last edited by Sluggo; 11-30-2013, 09:08 AM. Reason: correction

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                            • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                              Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                              I'd rather keep $800 billion in the hands of the citizens. If the US was not taking in record levels of wealth right out of the hands of the citizens as tax revenues we might have one hell of an economy by now.
                              Interesting how an economy with the highest GDP in the world, twice that of the 2nd biggest economy, is not considered one hell of an economy.

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                              • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                                Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                                I disagree. Our economic model has been harmed more by government intervention to date than helped by it, including dealing with a decreasing manufacturing and production economy to a more consumer debt based economy.

                                In the short term what seems to be holding us back the most is uncertainty about whatever the next government action will be. A classic example is what Obamacare did to small and large business, another would be debt ceiling after debt ceiling resulting in threats of default and direct harm to the government deficit spending dependent economic model we have now. You add in uncertainty about Fed action keeping our markets very bullish and pushing on profit and not growth you can see what the government (and the Fed) is doing is setting up a down the road failure of some kind.

                                You could even argue well that government intervention lead the way to shift away from manufacturing and production economic model. Doing so for self-serving reasons. A good example and predictable effect is our relations with China, that is now a two way economic and fiscal policy dependent relationship for both governments. Another, somewhat lesser, would be India.

                                I have all the evidence I need that our economic model designed by our government is harmful, only made worse by the wealth they extract at now record levels in tax revenues. The wealth gap is at its worst. Headline inflation vs. PCE inflation directly harmed every income quintile except the top, and as such movement up the income quintile is at its worst. Wages are flat and overall employment issues tell us the core economic concern is still aggregate demand. Something all these bailouts, stimulus spending sprees, and government pet projects has not addressed. When it comes to spending as a percentage of GDP vs. tax revenues we are not only going the wrong direction but also we are way above the last time the government actually had a real debt reducing surplus.

                                Even Keynes tells us in this situation we should get the government out of the way, and allow the economy to take a little risk. Allow the economic cycle to develop out of a trough that I would argue the present government is keeping us in. Entrepreneurship, innovation and market risk can still be economically impacting if we allowed it to happen, if we allowed capital to stay in the hands of those that actually create jobs. Present management is not interested in that, it would cost them votes. The only caveat to that would be that government would have to get out of the business of only helping big business by enslaving other nation's populace we now call "partners."
                                Well put.

                                So the current economic model has been hurt by gov't intervention? Besides of not dropping tax rates what other intervention are you speaking of?

                                But to me there is a deeper problem involved, which has to be talked about. We certainly know that manufacturing what our consumption based economy consumed was a winning ticket, and it worked as it employed people that were either agricultural workers or farm owners, but really saw its glory in post ww2 America, where americans were driven to consume, or at least highly encouraged. This consumption expanded our middle class, and brought prosperity to a whole bunch of average americans, many who were born into poverty and manufacturing provided a ladder up from that poverty. We know how that sort of model worked, what it yielded.

                                When we lost that model, we also lost the ability to spring back from recessions as in the past, when factories called back the people who made what we were buying. And I think this drives other things, even the rise in national debt. The loss of this model involved gov't perhaps driven by those elites that would greatly benefit personally from changing America's economic model. This is what I see as the crux of the problem, not gov't intervention in the ruins left by the deindustrialization of America. I would admit of course that gov't perhaps has made it harder for the smaller business that stayed here, and I guess this group just didn't have the power to affect policy for themselves, only the big boys and bankers could do that.

                                And you may know, personally I see this change in models as a death nail in America's coffin. Not for the elites, but for hundreds of millions of average americans who have to toil for a living. I see it as impossible over the long term to support and feed these displaced people, and when that happens things won't ever be the same again. I don't know what lies on the other side of that, but I have a fairly good idea of what led to that. And it isn't gov't policy as it affects American small business. It is something much more devious who's cause lies in the base side of human nature and what happens when it can dictate changes in economic models. The creation and the rise of the Virtual State of corporations isn't good for any nation. And there is no way in hell that it can stand over time. So I am not so apt as to blame gov't policy unless you are talking about that policy that is bought by greed driven special interests.

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