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Obama negotiates "peace in his time"...

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  • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

    Originally posted by FearandLoathing View Post
    We seem to keep asking that question and not get anywhere.

    What did Iran surrender to earn the release of $800 billion?

    I would think it's a straightforward question.

    I find it funny the same side of the political spectrum who adovocate fiercly for the unconditional right to bear arms in America, is the same one pushing for keeping non-Americans unarmed.

    Of course while they would be infuriated if it happened to them, they don't seem to have any ability to understand how dem dang ol foreynors would feel.

    Hypocrisy at it's finest.

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    • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

      Originally posted by Jihad4Beer View Post
      I find it funny the same side of the political spectrum who adovocate fiercly for the unconditional right to bear arms in America, is the same one pushing for keeping non-Americans unarmed.

      Of course while they would be infuriated if it happened to them, they don't seem to have any ability to understand how dem dang ol foreynors would feel.

      Hypocrisy at it's finest.
      Interesting.

      Where, in any of my posts, did you EVER find any hint of one iota of a suggestion that I in any way EVER advocated in any way shape or form for either free and unfettered access to hand guns, firearms of any kind OR the disarming of America.

      Clearly your assessment of an entire worls view based on one post reflects your and most of the socialists' in America ability and tendency to draw sweeping generalizations to defame, demonize and incite against superior intellects.

      Frankly as a free enterprise Liberal, I am shamed by the activities of America's so-called "liberals"; who appear to be cold blooded socialist wolves in sheep's liberal clothing.

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      • Re: Obama negotiates &quot;peace in his time&quot;...

        OK, the claim is that this so-called "peace agreement" with Iran is a great success and a step toward security for Israel.

        So, here we are, a week plus down the road, the majority of independent political scientists saying this is nothing, Israel and Saudi Arabia balking, Britain, Canada, Australia saying a form of "we'll believe it when we see it" and now, the new "centrist" leader of Iran is saying "let's be friends" but we're going to keep on refining all the weapons grade uranium we bloody well want:

        What am I not getting? How can the agreement be anything if the US has freed up $800 billion and lift all future restraints when the only thing that has changed is that "inspectors", whose role is yet to be defined, will be able to actually watch the weapons grade uranium being refined. Whether they get to see it being shipped to North Korea is unkown.

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        • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

          Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
          An economy consisting of what? Walmarts and burger stands?

          I will submit to you that since the manufacturing and the purchase of goods has driven most economies since the industrial revolution when industry replaced agriculture as a means to earn a wage which is needed to live, that if you give away your manufacturing end and only keep the retail, there is no room for this economy to blossom and do great things as it once did for average people.

          I say that the current model of offshoring more and more manufacturing is a death nail in the American coffin, if you take into consideration the hundreds of millions of average human beings who are not capable of those jobs that require above average brains.
          The death of US manufacturing is quite exaggerated.



          You are quite right to be concerned about the middle class, but it's not off shoring that's doing it.
          Two economists argued recently in The New York Times that technology is largely to blame for hollowing out the middle class. “The multi-trillionfold decline in the cost of computing since the 1970s has created enormous incentives for employers to substitute increasingly cheap and capable computers for expensive labor,” they wrote. “Computerization has therefore fostered a polarization of employment, with job growth concentrated in both the highest- and lowest-paid occupations, while jobs in the middle have declined.”
          The Jobs That Could Save the Middle Class | The Exchange - Yahoo Finance

          Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
          And I also say that if taxes were lower, going into this depression as it affects average people that this would have only provided more money to be sent overseas, which is then not brought back to be taxed. And even if it were brought back with no taxes charged that this money would be reinvested overseas where you can exploit the poor for their labor, since labor costs are still one of the greatest costs on any P and L statement.

          I do not believe that the current economic model can be helped by lower taxes, unless you want another walmart built or another fast food joint, a chain. In fact, I think taxes will have to go up in order to take care of the displaced americans, and the new workers who join the workforce each year when they reach that working age. This will have to occur because we no longer make what we consume, and you cannot remove industry that was where many americans worked and not have something to replace it that average people can do in order to earn their living.
          The great employment boom in manufacturing for high school level education employed in blue collar physical labor has come to an end. There's going to be an adjustment period, and things will stabilize again. You can aid the speed of the transition and stabilization with education and training grants, and that's what congress has already been doing for quite some time.

          Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
          To me this is the most simplest of all common sense. That is, if you take away jobs, manufacturing, and have nothing that pays the living wages it produced, that average people can do, you can drop taxes to 1 per cent and watch that money head offshore. Unless of course you can convince the American people to work for 80 cents an hour. Which you can't.

          Our economy is still one based upon consumption as most modern, advanced economies are. And if you stop making what our people buy, you are gonna run into some very grave problems, and being optimistic about it doesn't change reality. And to try to create jobs by reducing taxes no longer works as it did when we made what we consumed. You know how that worked surely. More money from less taxes gave the consumers more money to spend, a greater demand for widgets. The factory owners had extra money from lower taxes to build new factories, or expand existing factories, which meant hiring more people. So reducing taxes made sense in that sort of economy. Yet we lost it. And now we want to do the things that worked when we made what we consumed, employing our own consumers, and we no longer have that economic model that would respond to such moves. We need to do something entirely different, suited for this change in economic paradigm, yet we have so many that seem to think the old ways would still work. I don't believe they will. Not when having more money to invest leaves this nation, and then stays offshore. Not when giving the consumers more money through lower taxes is spent on consumer goods no longer made here unless you want to buy a car. Hell, even the manufactured construction materials isn't made here anymore, but china. So new construction helps out the MNCs in china but it doesn't employ americans. And that is a helluva problem and one that lower taxes will never solve.

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          • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
            Well put.

            So the current economic model has been hurt by gov't intervention? Besides of not dropping tax rates what other intervention are you speaking of?
            Sorry to the OP and admins in advance, this is all off-topic.

            I would say it has. Economic principle dictates that to handle the economy cycle there should be a purposeful mix of proper fiscal, monetary, and economic policy. However, politics took over common sense and somewhere along the lines we decided to go with policy that ended up creating a series of bubbles to all pop at some point. Irony, since most principles of economics are designed to lessen the amplitude of the economic cycle we then figured out a way to shift that amplitude into high gear.

            Tax rates always was and still is only part of the discussion. What is generally skipped is the relationship between tax rates and tax exemptions, further manipulation of the populace with the real effect being fiscal deficits requiring ill-advised monetary policy no matter where we are in the economic cycle.

            The interventions with economic effects are easy to list. Financial sector regulation, then de-regulation, then regulation again effecting everything from capital, to investment, to corporation size lean (i.e "too big to fail.") Various community reinvestment acts exploding housing, poor lending standards, and the handling of debt based investment vehicles. Various international trade legislation pitting the American worker against the international markets. I could go on but they all have lasting economic impact, and really fiscal and monetary policy impact.

            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
            But to me there is a deeper problem involved, which has to be talked about. We certainly know that manufacturing what our consumption based economy consumed was a winning ticket, and it worked as it employed people that were either agricultural workers or farm owners, but really saw its glory in post ww2 America, where americans were driven to consume, or at least highly encouraged. This consumption expanded our middle class, and brought prosperity to a whole bunch of average americans, many who were born into poverty and manufacturing provided a ladder up from that poverty. We know how that sort of model worked, what it yielded.

            When we lost that model, we also lost the ability to spring back from recessions as in the past, when factories called back the people who made what we were buying. And I think this drives other things, even the rise in national debt. The loss of this model involved gov't perhaps driven by those elites that would greatly benefit personally from changing America's economic model. This is what I see as the crux of the problem, not gov't intervention in the ruins left by the deindustrialization of America. I would admit of course that gov't perhaps has made it harder for the smaller business that stayed here, and I guess this group just didn't have the power to affect policy for themselves, only the big boys and bankers could do that.
            I can agree to some of this. There was a legitimate benefit to an economic model that relied upon its own populace for workers in production and manufacturing. Having a significant part of our population, say the 4th and 3rd income quintile, working in this manner with pay at that living standard had real economic impact. Velocity of money was probably highest during that time, and wealth distribution was far better than it is now.

            What happened from that point to now is a combination of things but it could be summed up as a consorted effort to use the government to ensure big business success over entrepreneurship. Organizations that started in a manner like you speak of ended up becoming giant international distribution systems for the purpose of a consumer driven market. It took reliance on government making a few decisions with India, China, Mexico, and a series of others for Sears, Target, Walmart, etc. to all be possible in today's business model terms. You could argue well that in and outside of the financial sector, our government worked hard to ensure too big to fail became a reality in just about every market sector there is. Utilities, Technology, Services, Healthcare, Financial, Industrial Goods, all of them are now dominated by corporations that are damn near impossible to compete against without new government intervention.

            We have not had anything close to a free market system in the past 100+ years.

            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
            And you may know, personally I see this change in models as a death nail in America's coffin. Not for the elites, but for hundreds of millions of average americans who have to toil for a living. I see it as impossible over the long term to support and feed these displaced people, and when that happens things won't ever be the same again. I don't know what lies on the other side of that, but I have a fairly good idea of what led to that. And it isn't gov't policy as it affects American small business. It is something much more devious who's cause lies in the base side of human nature and what happens when it can dictate changes in economic models. The creation and the rise of the Virtual State of corporations isn't good for any nation. And there is no way in hell that it can stand over time. So I am not so apt as to blame gov't policy unless you are talking about that policy that is bought by greed driven special interests.
            What you are hinting at is a concern I share. What happens to the middle class in a system in which there is pressure to stay in the lowest 5th to 4th income quintile but spend (in debt) as if they are in the 3rd to 2nd income quintile for the exclusive benefit of the highest 1st quintile. From my chair that keeps the economic model as one of government deficit spending dependence. They are the only entity left with the financial means (though fiscal and monetary policy manipulation) to support only the highest and lowest income quintiles. And you can only do that for so long since the lowest income quintile is destine to expand from everyone falling out of the middle class. If the government had been investing in infrastructure and technology more than big business this might have been avoided. This virtual state is alive and well, just about every economic indicator tells us so.
            Last edited by Sluggo; 11-30-2013, 11:28 AM. Reason: typo

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            • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

              Originally posted by Jihad4Beer View Post
              I find it funny the same side of the political spectrum who adovocate fiercly for the unconditional right to bear arms in America, is the same one pushing for keeping non-Americans unarmed.

              Of course while they would be infuriated if it happened to them, they don't seem to have any ability to understand how dem dang ol foreynors would feel.

              Hypocrisy at it's finest.
              And the side of the political spectrum who advocates fiercely for non-Americans to keep nuclear weapons is the same side that advocates that Americans only have Flintlocks.

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              • Re: Obama negotiates &quot;peace in his time&quot;...

                Surrender in Geneva

                In Geneva, the participants came to the talks with different goals: The Americans and Europeans wanted an agreement; the Iranians wanted nukes. Each party got what it came for.
                Surrender in Geneva | National Review Online

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                • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                  Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                  And the side of the political spectrum who advocates fiercely for non-Americans to keep nuclear weapons is the same side that advocates that Americans only have Flintlocks.
                  LOL. I think you nailed it oldman. This does seem to be the case with some on the left side.

                  Being an old time sort of liberal, actually makes me conservative on some issues. I believe every American should own guns, if they want them. I also believe allowing a Theocracy to have nuclear weapons is like using a flaming torch to inspect a room full of dynamite with fuses sticking out everywhere. Where I differ from cons on this though is that I want honest diplomacy to be given every chance to work. If that fails completely and we know with 100 percent certainty that Iran was working on the bomb I have no qualms about totally destroying every creature in Iran that controls that theocracy. And I don't mean a partial war, but an attack like the world has not seen since the bombing in ww2 of Germany. Blast em back to the stone age so it would take a hundred years to recover enough to even think about making their own nuclear bombs.

                  Sad to say, there are times in human history when the only solution to a great problem is to kill everything that moves, although our modern sensibilities recoil at such barbarous acts. I hate war, period. But if you HAVE to indulge in it, you go in to totally destroy the enemy, to the last man. No half measures. And that has been what America has done since ww2, half measures, which generally sends us home defeated with too many young americans giving up their lives for absolutely NOTHING. That is what we should never tolerate even if it does make some elites richer than ever. I see most conflicts we have engaged in as nothing more than filling the purses of defense contractors with BLOOD MONEY. The blood of young americans. I am fed up with it. So while I hate war and it should always be a last resort, if you do go to war, go in it to win it. Otherwise stay the hell home.

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                  • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                    LOL. I think you nailed it oldman. This does seem to be the case with some on the left side.

                    Being an old time sort of liberal, actually makes me conservative on some issues. I believe every American should own guns, if they want them. I also believe allowing a Theocracy to have nuclear weapons is like using a flaming torch to inspect a room full of dynamite with fuses sticking out everywhere. Where I differ from cons on this though is that I want honest diplomacy to be given every chance to work. If that fails completely and we know with 100 percent certainty that Iran was working on the bomb I have no qualms about totally destroying every creature in Iran that controls that theocracy. And I don't mean a partial war, but an attack like the world has not seen since the bombing in ww2 of Germany. Blast em back to the stone age so it would take a hundred years to recover enough to even think about making their own nuclear bombs.

                    Sad to say, there are times in human history when the only solution to a great problem is to kill everything that moves, although our modern sensibilities recoil at such barbarous acts. I hate war, period. But if you HAVE to indulge in it, you go in to totally destroy the enemy, to the last man. No half measures. And that has been what America has done since ww2, half measures, which generally sends us home defeated with too many young americans giving up their lives for absolutely NOTHING. That is what we should never tolerate even if it does make some elites richer than ever. I see most conflicts we have engaged in as nothing more than filling the purses of defense contractors with BLOOD MONEY. The blood of young americans. I am fed up with it. So while I hate war and it should always be a last resort, if you do go to war, go in it to win it. Otherwise stay the hell home.
                    That being an indication as to how much the political spectrum has moved to the liberal end, and nobody's talking about it. I kinda figure that it must be liberals / progressives dirty little secret they are ashamed of or something.

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                    • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                      Originally posted by Jihad4Beer View Post
                      I find it funny the same side of the political spectrum who adovocate fiercly for the unconditional right to bear arms in America, is the same one pushing for keeping non-Americans unarmed.

                      Of course while they would be infuriated if it happened to them, they don't seem to have any ability to understand how dem dang ol foreynors would feel.

                      Hypocrisy at it's finest.
                      You realize that its an Us vs Them sort of thing right? You realize that They are not Us etc? You realize then that my level of fucks given is inversely proportional to how their rights relate to mine? IE I don't give a fuck since they are not US citizens and only US citizens are guaranteed the right to bear arms.
                      Yeah you get that.

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                      • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                        Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
                        The death of US manufacturing is quite exaggerated.



                        You are quite right to be concerned about the middle class, but it's not off shoring that's doing it.

                        The Jobs That Could Save the Middle Class | The Exchange - Yahoo Finance



                        The great employment boom in manufacturing for high school level education employed in blue collar physical labor has come to an end. There's going to be an adjustment period, and things will stabilize again. You can aid the speed of the transition and stabilization with education and training grants, and that's what congress has already been doing for quite some time.
                        Actually its going to get alot worse. A lot of blue collar jobs in manufacturing are about to disappear with the advent of 3d printing of metal parts. Just POOF we don't need you anymore we paid 200k for this machine that will do all 5 of you guy's jobs in less time with no risk of injury.
                        The adjustment period is yet to come and I gotta tell you: We're not going to make it. Not like this.
                        Unless coding becomes a grade school taught thing in the REQUIRED curriculum, along with MORE science and MATH, we are DOOMED. We will fall into a spin that we will never recover from.

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                        • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                          Originally posted by reality View Post
                          Actually its going to get alot worse. A lot of blue collar jobs in manufacturing are about to disappear with the advent of 3d printing of metal parts. Just POOF we don't need you anymore we paid 200k for this machine that will do all 5 of you guy's jobs in less time with no risk of injury.
                          The adjustment period is yet to come and I gotta tell you: We're not going to make it. Not like this.
                          Unless coding becomes a grade school taught thing in the REQUIRED curriculum, along with MORE science and MATH, we are DOOMED. We will fall into a spin that we will never recover from.
                          I coudn't have said it better myself. It's inevitable I suppose, just like a lot of things. Sometimes I get the feeling that market forces would just like for the baby boomers to just hurry up and die so that they can get on with business.

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                          • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                            Originally posted by reality View Post
                            You realize that its an Us vs Them sort of thing right? You realize that They are not Us etc? You realize then that my level of fucks given is inversely proportional to how their rights relate to mine? IE I don't give a fuck since they are not US citizens and only US citizens are guaranteed the right to bear arms.
                            Yeah you get that.
                            Wow....you're actually admitting to succumbing to the "us vs them" mentality.

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                            • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                              Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
                              That being an indication as to how much the political spectrum has moved to the liberal end, and nobody's talking about it. I kinda figure that it must be liberals / progressives dirty little secret they are ashamed of or something.
                              Personally as I was working hard with my business years ago I kinda dropped out of keeping up with politics, and only discovered just how crazy the left had become since I joined in here. They certainly don't represent my beliefs and views, when years ago they in fact did. They changed, and the change I am sure has left old men like me without a party. That is why I voted against every encumbent in the last election and will do so as long as I am still breathing the earth's air.

                              Years ago there were even conservative democrats, but of course not as far to the right as the conservative republicans. But still. My liberalism isn't the liberalism of today. Far from it. Liberalism today is some crazy stuff, IMO. If you don't believe it, look at Obama. Forcing people to buy a private sector product is fascism IMO. The liberals are fascists. I think we need a new term for modern liberalism. Liberal fascism sounds pretty close.

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                              • Re: Obama negotiates &amp;quot;peace in his time&amp;quot;...

                                [QUOTEOriginally Posted by eohrnberger View Post

                                The death of US manufacturing is quite exaggerated.

                                •Manufacturing in U.S. Expands at Faster Pace Than Forecast - Bloomberg
                                •Manufacturing Rebound Led by Autos Supports Growth: Economy - Bloomberg



                                You are quite right to be concerned about the middle class, but it's not off shoring that's doing it.

                                The Jobs That Could Save the Middle Class | The Exchange - Yahoo Finance



                                The great employment boom in manufacturing for high school level education employed in blue collar physical labor has come to an end. There's going to be an adjustment period, and things will stabilize again. You can aid the speed of the transition and stabilization with education and training grants, and that's what congress has already been doing for quite some timeQUOTE]

                                Well, offshoring of consumer good production has certainly hurt the middle class, because you don't just lose production jobs but all of the support industry, hell, even a lack of a need for certain engineering in the numbers that consumer good manufacturing created a need for.

                                We are indeed still manufacturing some things, but what consumer goods besides cars and trucks do americans regularly buy? I have not seen an American made consumer good for quite a spell.

                                I think the truth is this, when you start offshoring the manufacturing of what americans buy it leaves a hole in the economy, and this hole is a middle class hole. And that hole has not been filled and will not be filled by jobs that paid the same rates which allowed people to prosper. A consumption based economy that no longer makes what it consumes is a structure that does away with a major engine of what expanded our middle class in the first place. We are no longer making americans prosper by us making our own consumer goods. And we are driving up safety net costs, making the debt a dangerous entity. And to me that is a national security issue, as the economic health is a security issue because it affects much more than just people not being able to find a living wage job.

                                In my own area as an example, all of our old factories are gone. Not a single one left. So we lost perhaps 25 and we replaced them with a Eurocopter plant, a small steel mill, and a Japanese company who is building a factory in the next county which will employ some of the people in my town. But none of these factories employ people like the old factories did, who are now in china using communist labor. If not for the Japanese car companies building factories in this state we wouldn't have much industry, big industry.

                                All of the middle class neighborhoods that factories built are now our "hoods" filled with poor people in old middle class houses that are not kept up. And those middle class folks are probably in nursing homes by now. But their kids, many of them who planned on doing like dad did now don't have that opportunity in making what americans consume.

                                Of course time will go on, and these new changes that seek to max out profits with cheap foreign labor will continue on, being a cancer for America. As soon as a new product is developed here, it will be sent overseas to be made. Personally I see this as devastating for our middle class and it will continue to devastate the middle to the point that I figure within 25 years our middle class with be not 10 percent smaller but 25 percent smaller. I don't think our economic model can do anything but that. But having a large, prosperous middle class is no longer the goal of economic policy as it once was coming out of ww2. That is the major change to me, what we are emphasizing with our policy. It ain't the middle class anymore. It's all about maxing out profits, no matter the damage done to the home nation of those big corporations. The damage is not important, and neither is a large middle class. I think this is the crux of the problem.

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