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Black Sea Crisis

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  • Re: Black Sea Crisis

    Originally posted by Commodore View Post
    We supported what the majority of the Ukrainian people wanted, closer economic ties with Europe, and we supported it with phone calls and speeches.

    Can you cite where we sent tanks?
    Oh...there are so much more subtle ways to get the results you want.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/03...niper-carnage/

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: Black Sea Crisis

      Originally posted by Commodore View Post
      Tanks roll into Ukraine despite Putin's promise: Russia accused of stepping in while the West is distracted by Iraq




      Just another grassroots, 100% Ukrainian Patriot massing to drive the Nazi's out of Kiev. Again. Right?
      Well, according to german media these tanks appear to be T64s, a soviet era type. And Ukraine is littered all over with soviet era military depots. Soviet weapons, guns, tanks, ships, even an entire aircraft carrier once have over years even been Ukraines Nr. 1 source of export revenues. The separatists may simply have cleaned out a soviet army depot and got a handful of tanks going. Would be much more logical than the Russians making such an effort to send rusty old stuff over.
      Last edited by Voland; 06-14-2014, 01:43 AM.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Re: Black Sea Crisis

        Originally posted by Commodore View Post
        We supported what the majority of the Ukrainian people wanted, closer economic ties with Europe, and we supported it with phone calls and speeches.

        Can you cite where we sent tanks?

        You picked one side in a local power struggle that was just as bad as the other and thereby elevated a local struggle to geopolitics. If you had cared one moment for what the ukrainian people wanted, you had at least made recognition of the anti-Yanukovich governement dependent on holding elections. The presidential elections that were held in May finally speak for themselves. The new president Poroshenko stands for closer relations with Europe, but neither for NATO membership nor for deploying western troops, and for much more talking than fighting with Russia. He has also repeatedely reached out to the russian speakers, promised regional autonomy, respecting their language and culture. The elections have on the other hand also demonstrated that the hardcore separatists are a minority, and that Poroshenko could be sucessful in drawing the constructive elements in eastern Ukraine while fighting the militant separatists.
        The candidate that the US more or less openly were drumming for, Tymoschenko (remember the Nuland tapes?), that stands for a tough anti-russian line, full NATO membership, etc. got slightly more than 10 %. It is basically not in doubt what the majority of the ukrainian people wanted and that is NOT fully in line with US policy :


        http://rt.com/news/164236-putin-poro...ine-bloodshed/


        President Putin has hailed the Ukrainian president-elect’s “plan” to resolve crisis in the country, stressing that Ukraine should start internal dialogue, and that Russia is not a party to the conflict.

        Vladimir Putin and Ukraine’s president-elect Petro Poroshenko have briefly spoken on the sidelines of the D-Day anniversary celebrations in Normandy.


        Both leaders “have spoken for a prompt end to bloodshed in southeast Ukraine as well as for an end to military actions from both sides – from the side of the Ukrainian armed forces and the supporters of federalization of Ukraine,” said Putin’s press secretary, Dmitry Peskov.

        Putin and Poroshenko also agreed that there is “no alternative” to “peaceful political means” to resolve the conflict in Ukraine.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Re: Black Sea Crisis

          Originally posted by Voland View Post
          You picked one side in a local power struggle that was just as bad as the other and thereby elevated a local struggle to geopolitics. If you had cared one moment for what the ukrainian people wanted, you had at least made recognition of the anti-Yanukovich governement dependent on holding elections. The presidential elections that were held in May finally speak for themselves. The new president Poroshenko stands for closer relations with Europe, but neither for NATO membership nor for deploying western troops, and for much more talking than fighting with Russia. He has also repeatedely reached out to the russian speakers, promised regional autonomy, respecting their language and culture. The elections have on the other hand also demonstrated that the hardcore separatists are a minority, and that Poroshenko could be sucessful in drawing the constructive elements in eastern Ukraine while fighting the militant separatists.
          The candidate that the US more or less openly were drumming for, Tymoschenko (remember the Nuland tapes?), that stands for a tough anti-russian line, full NATO membership, etc. got slightly more than 10 %. It is basically not in doubt what the majority of the ukrainian people wanted and that is NOT fully in line with US policy :


          http://rt.com/news/164236-putin-poro...ine-bloodshed/


          President Putin has hailed the Ukrainian president-elect’s “plan” to resolve crisis in the country, stressing that Ukraine should start internal dialogue, and that Russia is not a party to the conflict.

          Vladimir Putin and Ukraine’s president-elect Petro Poroshenko have briefly spoken on the sidelines of the D-Day anniversary celebrations in Normandy.


          Both leaders “have spoken for a prompt end to bloodshed in southeast Ukraine as well as for an end to military actions from both sides – from the side of the Ukrainian armed forces and the supporters of federalization of Ukraine,” said Putin’s press secretary, Dmitry Peskov.

          Putin and Poroshenko also agreed that there is “no alternative” to “peaceful political means” to resolve the conflict in Ukraine.
          You think the results of the elections were legitimate? You think that can really happen when you have cities surrounded by a hostile military?

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: Black Sea Crisis

            Originally posted by fishjoel View Post
            You think the results of the elections were legitimate? You think that can really happen when you have cities surrounded by a hostile military?

            Under the circumstances reasonably letigimate, yes. Poroshenko has won in russian speaking as well as in ukrainian speaking regions, and he is neither sides hardliners man. He was also the only candidate with some kind of peace plan. Poroshenkos prioritizes closer relations and free trade with Europe, yet not NATO membership. He has blasted the referendums in eastern Ukraine, yet also the governements military offensive without political plan. He has continously offered the russian speakers equal rights, autonomy and political participation ( and thereby distanced himself from the anti Yanukovich governement), yet promised to punish violence on the part of the separatists. He has pledged to rebuild Ukraines shattered security forces, yet to solve tensions with Russia in a "peaceful spirit" and to start talks with Putin directly. Poroshenko has served as minister and official (like central bank governor) under pro-russian as well as pro-western governements, he has once co-founded Yanukovichs "Party of the regions", but also kept ties to the Maidan movement. His enemies are calling him an oligarch billionaire and skilled opportunist, those that voted for him hope that precisely this unideological and pragmatic flexibility is what distinguishes him from the established parties (also those in the still unelected governement), may enable him to build bridges and lead out of the political crisis. And he has won by a wide enough margin to declass all his opponents, pro-western (Timoschenko) and pro-russian (Zarov). Under the circumstances Poroshenko may the best deal that Ukraine can get. And thus his program (balance and reconsiliation, fighting corruption etc.) closer to what the majority wants than the fiery speeches from both fringes.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Re: Black Sea Crisis

              NEW SATELLITE IMAGERY EXPOSES RUSSIAN COMBAT TROOPS INSIDE UKRAINE

              Mons, BELGIUM – NATO released new satellite images on Thursday, 28 August 2014, that show Russian combat forces engaged in military operations inside the sovereign territory of Ukraine. The images, captured in late August, depict Russian self-propelled artillery units moving in a convoy through the Ukrainian countryside and then preparing for action by establishing firing positions in the area of Krasnodon, Ukraine.

              Dutch Brigadier General Nico Tak, director of the Comprehensive Crisis and Operations Management Centre (CCOMC), Allied Command Operations said the images confirmed what NATO and its Allies had been seeing for weeks from other sources.


              "Over the past two weeks we have noted a significant escalation in both the level and sophistication of Russia’s military interference in Ukraine,” said Brigadier General Tak. "The satellite images released today provide additional evidence that Russian combat soldiers, equipped with sophisticated heavy weaponry, are operating inside Ukraine’s sovereign territory,” he said.


              These latest images provide concrete examples of Russian activity inside Ukraine, but are only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the overall scope of Russian troop and weapons movements.
              I would love to not have to say I told you so.

              I told you so.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Re: Black Sea Crisis

                Reason prevails, at least in France.

                France Withholds Delivery Of Amphib Aircraft Carriers From Russia

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • You know, for not having invaded Ukraine, Russia seems to have a lot of dead and quitting soldiers he doesn't want anyone to know about.


                  Some Russian soldiers are quitting the army because of the conflict in Ukraine, several soldiers and human rights activists have told Reuters. Their accounts call into question the Kremlin's continued assertions that no Russian soldiers have been sent to Ukraine, and that any Russians fighting alongside rebels there are volunteers.

                  Evidence for Russians fighting in Ukraine – Russian army equipment found in the country, testimony from soldiers' families and from Ukrainians who say they were captured by Russian paratroopers – is abundant. Associates of Boris Nemtsov, a prominent Kremlin critic killed in February, will soon publish a report which they say will contain new evidence of the Russian military presence in Ukraine.

                  Until now, however, it has been extremely rare to find Russian soldiers who have fought there and are willing to talk. It is even rarer to find soldiers who have quit the army. Five soldiers who recently quit, including two who said they left rather than serve in Ukraine, have told Reuters of their experiences.

                  One of the five, from Moscow, said he was sent on exercises in southern Russia last year but ended up going into Ukraine in an armored convoy.

                  "After we crossed the border, a lieutenant colonel said we could be sent to jail if we didn't fulfil orders. Some soldiers refused to stay there," said the soldier, who served with the elite Russian Kantemirovskaya tank division. He gave Reuters his full name but spoke on condition of anonymity, saying he feared reprisals.

                  He said he knew two soldiers who refused to stay. "They were taken somewhere. The lieutenant colonel said criminal cases were opened against them but in reality – we called them afterwards – they were at home. They just quit."

                  Russia's President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly denied that Moscow has sent any military forces to help rebels in eastern Ukraine, where clashes and casualties persist despite a ceasefire struck in February. Putin's spokesman has derided such allegations by NATO, Western governments and Kiev. Officials say that any Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine are "volunteers," helping the rebels of their own free will.


                  RUSSIAN President Vladimir Putin has banned the release of information about troop deaths in “special operations” during peacetime, as the Kremlin continues to rebuff accusations its soldiers are fighting in Ukraine.

                  Putin signed an amendment adding to what Russia classifies as “state secrets” any “information revealing losses of personnel ... in peacetime during special operations.”

                  The addition means that those who disclose details about the deaths of soldiers sent on operations now could be prosecuted.

                  The decree gives no details of what exactly is meant by a “special operation”. Revealing state secrets, when it does not involve handing them to a foreign state, is a criminal offence that can be punished by up to four years in jail.

                  Analysts said the legal change was aimed at stamping out any leaks on military losses in Ukraine after activists released a string of evidence pointing to the deaths of Russian government soldiers across the border in the former Soviet state.

                  “The reason is not to reveal losses in Donbass,” said military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer, referring to the war zone in eastern Ukraine, adding that the legal move was designed to “imprison or scare people”.

                  “I’ve never heard a legal definition of the concept of a special operation,” said Felgenhauer. “That means you could classify anything you like as this.” Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the amendment is “not linked to Ukraine,” but rather was an improvement of Russian laws concerning state secrets, according to RIA-Novosti news agency.

                  Peskov added Putin has no intention to authorise special operations in Ukraine.

                  Troops mass on border

                  The Kremlin decree came as reports pointed to a massing of Russian equipment close to the Ukraine border.

                  An AFP photographer in recent days saw Russian military vehicles loaded on a freight train in the southern Rostov region, some 20 kilometres (12 miles) from the Ukrainian border.

                  The photographer also saw Russian military vehicles at a training camp some 50 kilometres (31 miles) from the border.

                  The Kremlin has consistently denied government soldiers are fighting in Ukraine and claimed those fighting alongside rebels are there as volunteers.

                  Ukraine and the West insist Russia has not only armed and equipped the rebels but also sent in troops to spearhead fighting against Kiev’s forces.
                  Putin has already killed one man to prevent this information from getting to the Russian public. This law ensures that more Russians will face persecution, and many more Ukrainians will die at Russian hands.
                  Last edited by Commodore; 05-28-2015, 11:54 PM.

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                  • Putin apparently needs a repeat of the Soviet Union lesson: Abuse the citizens you (don't) serve with a certain level of contempt. Eventually, said citizenry will ignore the state, which will bring about it's collapse. Of course, the corollary lesson for citizens is: Be very careful of who you choose to lead your country.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                      Putin apparently needs a repeat of the Soviet Union lesson: Abuse the citizens you (don't) serve with a certain level of contempt. Eventually, said citizenry will ignore the state, which will bring about it's collapse. Of course, the corollary lesson for citizens is: Be very careful of who you choose to lead your country.
                      Considering the length of the Soviet era, the Russian people seem to be gluttons for punishment. But the body count is deep, and getting deeper...

                      Putin opponent near death in suspected poisoning

                      An outspoken opponent of Russian President Vladimir Putin was near death Friday from an apparent poisoning just three months after his close political ally was gunned down near the Kremlin, and supporters want him evacuated to Europe or Israel to determine what sickened him.

                      Vladimir Kara-Murza Jr., who has long been based in Washington, was in a hotel in Moscow when he suddenly lost consciousness May 26 and was hospitalized with what his wife called "symptoms of poisoning." The 33-year-old is a coordinator for Open Russia, a nongovernmental organization which on the previous day released a documentary film accusing close Putin crony and Chechen strongman Ramzan Kadyrov of human rights abuses including torture and murder.

                      Originally posted by [COLOR=#252C2F
                      Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J.[/COLOR]]"I am deeply concerned about the mysterious illness of Vladimir Kara-Murza, especially given the recent murder of Boris Nemtsov and the number of Putin's opponents who have been poisoned."
                      "Doctors have just confirmed that he was poisoned," Andrei Bystrov, an opposition activist and friend of the Kara-Murza family, told The Telegraph. "As to what with, they can't say yet. It could be anything."

                      Kara-Murza, a dual Russian-British citizen, was a close associate of opposition leader Boris Nemtsov, who was assassinated in February.
                      Putin can not control the flow of information as he once did.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Originally posted by Commodore View Post

                        Considering the length of the Soviet era, the Russian people seem to be gluttons for punishment. But the body count is deep, and getting deeper...

                        ....Putin opponent near death in suspected poisoning...



                        Putin can not control the flow of information as he once did.
                        Hopefully their memory is strong enuf to inspire a general strike (and other methods) much sooner, not later. Collapsing Putin, then electing someone who was much more qualified to lead a republic, would be an inspiration to the world. Even if Russians were then criticized for missing the first chance.

                        Passively destroying tyrants is something that could be copied much more easily than military action.

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                        • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                          Hopefully their memory is strong enuf to inspire a general strike (and other methods) much sooner, not later. Collapsing Putin, then electing someone who was much more qualified to lead a republic, would be an inspiration to the world. Even if Russians were then criticized for missing the first chance.

                          Passively destroying tyrants is something that could be copied much more easily than military action.
                          Putin has already gone to great lengths to demonize the so called "colored revolution". Such an uprising would be met with brutal force, followed shortly after by a coup on the part of members of the military not willing to slaughter their own people, followed by years of infighting, corruption, and chaos, followed by a strongman brutal enough to bring order, tolerated by a people long since desensitized to such violence, and looking to blame their problems on those beyond their borders. In other words, we'd be right back where we started.

                          Sanctions and a military embarrassment or two are far more likely to get the desired effect through the ballot box. But it requires Western leadership willing to call Putin out on his crap, and then actually stand up to him. That means closing the Black Sea to Russian shipping, putting NATO divisions in the Baltic states, putting NATO divisions on the Dnipro, and freshly trained and NATO equipped Ukrainian divisions on the Russian border, picking off Russian puppets in Syria and Iran, and a complete Western embargo on Russian goods. It has to be very clear to both Putin and the Russian people that we are more than willing to let them stew in their own juices, and the only way out is is to get their act together.

                          Unfortunately, Europe is not in a position to be free of Russian energy. Even though we could probably make up the difference in Europe's energy needs, and get filthy rich in the process, a parade of LNG tankers presents the ideal means of revenge for Putin. If one of those blows up in the port of Rotterdam, there won't be a port of Rotterdam, or a city of Rotterdam for that manner. Europe needs thorium cycled nuclear reactors, but it doesn't want them bad enough yet.

                          And of course, Obama does know the meaning of the word division, and his only use for the military is to pander to them as another "disadvantaged" minority.
                          Last edited by Commodore; 05-30-2015, 02:04 AM.

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                          • First, you guys should know that what is said about Putin is more than likely propaganda, since its legal now to once again feed American propaganda. Second, it's ironic that you can criticize Putin when your own nation is an oligarchy(and you do not give a shit) and, our actions in the middle east, if Russia did it, you would be calling for Putin's head.

                            Clean you own yards up before you start trying to clean up the neighbors. Of course, I know you will not do that, but that's my advice to the hypocrites.

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                            • Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                              First, you guys should know that what is said about Putin is more than likely propaganda, since its legal now to once again feed American propaganda. Second, it's ironic that you can criticize Putin when your own nation is an oligarchy(and you do not give a shit) and, our actions in the middle east, if Russia did it, you would be calling for Putin's head.

                              Clean you own yards up before you start trying to clean up the neighbors. Of course, I know you will not do that, but that's my advice to the hypocrites.
                              What is ironic is that the only thing more common than your oligarchical rantings is your endorsement of politicians who call for the concentration of power in the hands of a few government bureaucrats.

                              Your problem is not with oligarchy, it's with not being an oligarch.

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                              • Originally posted by Commodore View Post

                                Putin has already gone to great lengths to demonize the so called "colored revolution". Such an uprising would be met with brutal force, followed shortly after by a coup on the part of members of the military not willing to slaughter their own people, followed by years of infighting, corruption, and chaos, followed by a strongman brutal enough to bring order, tolerated by a people long since desensitized to such violence, and looking to blame their problems on those beyond their borders. In other words, we'd be right back where we started.

                                ...
                                That's possible, a Latin American caudillo scenario of sorts. If the military were really just tired of playing politics -as probably happened in Chile for example- they might spend their time tamping down violence at the street level while "suggesting" (threatening) political factions to get their act together and form a republic.

                                IOW, Military leaders who don't want to be political actors, but want a stable republic so they can get on with their interests in running a military (small or large). Your endless circle with a Big Boss in Kremlin, more than likely means X number of military adventures with no rational objective. I'd trust the (tired) Russian military command to recognize and reject that option -finally.

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