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Opinion: Germany - Austria

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  • Opinion: Germany - Austria

    Concerning history there are terrible double moral standards obtaining when it is about Germany.
    This thread should not be understood as claim for an new Anschluss but just as evidence that this claim is legitimate.

    1.)
    As the southern States have resigned from the US, a big war was the result that did not end with the end of the slavery but with the re-Anschlu of the southern States. While the violent reunification of the United States is celebrated in grand scale, about Germanys reunification is reported as it would have been an occupation. But compared with the US-Civil War, not a single bullet was necessary to carry out the Anschlu.


    2.)
    One question:
    If a Bavarian invents something, that thing would go into history as German invention. What if Bavaria later does resign from Germany? Is that invention no longer German and Bavarian now?


    3.)
    As the GDR ruling party decided to join the FRG it was celebrated as reunification. If that happening would have taken place during the time of the Third Reich, would that be an occupation?

  • #2
    Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

    Originally posted by Bleipriester View Post
    Concerning history there are terrible double moral standards obtaining when it is about Germany.
    This thread should not be understood as claim for an new Anschluss but just as evidence that this claim is legitimate.

    1.)
    As the southern States have resigned from the US, a big war was the result that did not end with the end of the slavery but with the re-Anschlu of the southern States. While the violent reunification of the United States is celebrated in grand scale, about Germanys reunification is reported as it would have been an occupation. But compared with the US-Civil War, not a single bullet was necessary to carry out the Anschlu.


    2.)
    One question:
    If a Bavarian invents something, that thing would go into history as German invention. What if Bavaria later does resign from Germany? Is that invention no longer German and Bavarian now?


    3.)
    As the GDR ruling party decided to join the FRG it was celebrated as reunification. If that happening would have taken place during the time of the Third Reich, would that be an occupation?
    The US was a union before the Civil war and unification came by way of the bullet. Austria was not a reunification ... merely intimidation by Germany. No need to hunt people down or arrest them or cancel votes. I think the Austrians were just happy they were not dead. As to number 3 ... it would have been a legitimate.

    It probably comes down to the belief that all Germans must be in one nation. When you have a European Union and the Country of "Europe" ... who will get credit for an invention?

    ?


    • #3
      Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

      Originally posted by michael h View Post
      The US was a union before the Civil war and unification came by way of the bullet. Austria was not a reunification ...
      Yes it was: This was the Austria dominated Germany with Parliament in Frankfurt. Germany-haters deny the existence of Germany, but if having eyes, you can see:


      After German Civil War between mainly Austria and Prussia and its allieds, Austria was banned from Germany in 1866:
      Unification of Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



      Originally posted by michael h View Post
      merely intimidation by Germany. No need to hunt people down or arrest them or cancel votes. I think the Austrians were just happy they were not dead. As to number 3 ... it would have been a legitimate.
      I saw them celebrating in videos...



      Originally posted by michael h View Post
      It probably comes down to the belief that all Germans must be in one nation. When you have a European Union and the Country of "Europe" ... who will get credit for an invention?
      If it comes that far some day, would the car be a German invention no longer but an European invention?

      ?


      • #4
        Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

        Originally posted by Bleipriester View Post
        Yes it was: This was the Austria dominated Germany with Parliament in Frankfurt. Germany-haters deny the existence of Germany, but if having eyes, you can see:


        After German Civil War between mainly Austria and Prussia and its allieds, Austria was banned from Germany in 1866:
        Unification of Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






        I saw them celebrating in videos...




        If it comes that far some day, would the car be a German invention no longer but an European invention?
        Why don't you just claim the HRE or Hapsburg Netherlands or Hapsburg Spain? Maybe I can make an analogy ... Jews are entitled to Israel because they had the land a couple thousand years ago.

        Without the Hohenzollern's there would be no Germany.

        I saw cheering for Saddam, Stalin, also ... review the history a little ... you will find Nazi intimidation.

        As to the invention ... its really having pride ... in something you had nothing to do with ... no?

        ?


        • #5
          Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

          Originally posted by michael h View Post
          Why don't you just claim the HRE or Hapsburg Netherlands or Hapsburg Spain? Maybe I can make an analogy ... Jews are entitled to Israel because they had the land a couple thousand years ago.

          Without the Hohenzollern's there would be no Germany.

          I saw cheering for Saddam, Stalin, also ... review the history a little ... you will find Nazi intimidation.

          As to the invention ... its really having pride ... in something you had nothing to do with ... no?
          First: There is no HRE. Its Name of Holy Roman Empire of German Nation.
          Second: Just depositing historical facts on the table does not make anyone a Nazi. If you dont like German history like how it happened, thats not my problem.
          Third: Your analogy fails. I never said that Israelis may not have their own country.

          Sad enough that I have to rectify the historical happenings before we can start to talk about opinions!

          ?


          • #6
            Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

            Originally posted by Bleipriester View Post
            First: There is no HRE. Its Name of Holy Roman Empire of German Nation.
            Second: Just depositing historical facts on the table does not make anyone a Nazi. If you dont like German history like how it happened, thats not my problem.
            Third: Your analogy fails. I never said that Israelis may not have their own country.

            Sad enough that I have to rectify the historical happenings before we can start to talk about opinions!
            Nothing sad here. I'm quite admire the Hohenzollern's. You may not appreciate the empire building of history ... I do ... despite some of the atrocities. The Nazis stand out and they bullied their way into Austria and the rest of Europe ... never mind that they had their infamous camps. Imperialism is nice in history to read about ... not recent history.

            And you respond with
            "If you dont like German history like how it happened, thats not my problem."
            is assinine when you opened the debate to begin with ... an opinion:

            "Concerning history there are terrible double moral standards obtaining when it is about Germany". "While the violent reunification of the United States is celebrated in grand scale, about Germanys reunification is reported as it would have been an occupation. But compared with the US-Civil War, not a single bullet was necessary to carry out the Anschlu. "
            If you want your ass kissed and agreement ... talk to a friend. I disagree with you on Austria ... I believe that Austrians were bullied into the arrangement.

            Now how does that translate into having a problem with German history?

            I always had a preference for the Hohenzollern's over the Hapsburg's who were instrumental in the creation of a German nation. Bismarck was also a great player.

            Also its time to put away the chip on your shoulder from your recent debates ... you have been on the defensive with this Nazi thing ... "Just depositing historical facts on the table does not make anyone a Nazi."

            Are we debating what you posted ... or am I responding to you being defensive?

            ?


            • #7
              Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

              An excerpt: lol ... a scheduled invasion.

              Anschluss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              On 25 July 1934, Chancellor Dollfuss was assassinated by Austrian Nazis in a failed coup. The second civil war followed, lasting until August 1934. Afterward leading Austrian Nazis fled to Germany but they continued to push for unification from there. The remaining Austrian Nazis started to make use of terrorist attacks against Austrian governmental institutions, causing a death toll of more than 800 between 1934 and 1938.

              Following Dollfuss' assassination, his successor was Schuschnigg, who followed a similar political course. In 1935 Schuschnigg used the police to suppress the Nazi supporters in Austria. Police actions under Schuschnigg included gathering Nazis (and Social Democrats) and holding them in internment camps. However, the support from the powerful and increasingly popular Nazi German state to the north was impossible to prevent. Eventually Schuschnigg gave up his anti-Nazi program and in July 1936 he signed the Austro-German Agreement, which, among other concessions, allowed the release of Nazis imprisoned in Austria and the inclusion of National Socialists in his Cabinet. This did not satisfy Hitler and the pro-Germany Austrian Nazi's grew in strength.
              [edit] February 1938

              Following increasing violence and demands from Hitler that Austria agree to a union, Schuschnigg met with Hitler on 12 February at Berchtesgaden in an attempt to avoid the take-over of Austria. Hitler presented Schuschnigg with a set of demands which included appointing known Austria Nazi sympathizers to positions of great power in the Austrian government. The key appointment was: Seyss-Inquart would take over as Minister of Public Security, with full and unlimited control of the police forces in Austria. In return Hitler would publicly reaffirm the treaty of 11 July 1936 and reaffirm his support for Austria’s national sovereignty. Schuschnigg accepted Hitler's "deal", returned to Vienna and made the changes to his government.

              One week later, Hitler made a speech saying "The German Reich is no longer willing to tolerate the suppression of ten million Germans across its borders." This was clearly directed at Austria and Czechoslovakia. As would be proved throughout Hitler's career, he could not be trusted to keep his side of any bargain.
              [edit] Schuschnigg announces a referendum

              On 9 March 1938, in an effort to preserve Austria's independence, Schuschnigg scheduled a plebiscite on the issue of unification for 13 March. To secure a large majority in the referendum, Schuschnigg set the minimum voting age at 24, as he believed younger voters were now supporters of the German Nazi ideology. This was a risk, and the next day it became apparent that Hitler would not simply stand by while Austria declared its independence by public vote. Hitler declared that the referendum would be subject to major fraud and that Germany would not accept it. In addition, the German ministry of propaganda issued press reports that riots had broken out in Austria and that large parts of the Austrian population were calling for German troops to restore order. Schuschnigg immediately responded publicly that reports of riots were false.[citation needed]

              Hitler sent an ultimatum to Schuschnigg on 11 March, demanding that he hand over all power to the Austrian National Socialists or face an invasion. The ultimatum was set to expire at noon, but was extended by two hours. Without waiting for an answer, Hitler had already signed the order to send troops into Austria at one o'clock[citation needed]

              Schuschnigg desperately sought support for Austrian independence in the hours following the ultimatum. Realizing that neither France nor Britain was willing to take steps, he resigned as chancellor that evening. In the radio broadcast in which he announced his resignation, he argued that he accepted the changes and allowed the Nazis to take over the government 'to avoid the shedding of fraternal blood [Bruderblut]'.[7]

              Also to be noted, it is said that after listening to Bruckner’s Seventh Symphony, Hitler cried: "How can anyone say that Austria is not German! Is there anything more German than our old pure Austrianness?"[8]
              Last edited by michael h; 02-14-2012, 05:09 PM.

              ?


              • #8
                Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

                See I stated intimidation was used. When you threaten a country with invasion ... some would qualify that as intimidation. In the US we have a different name for this tactic ... we call it a shotgun wedding.

                Now all you got to ask is ... why do you desire to present as a joyous occasion for Austrians?

                "Hitler sent an ultimatum to Schuschnigg on 11 March, demanding that he hand over all power to the Austrian National Socialists or face an invasion."

                ?


                • #9
                  Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

                  Originally posted by michael h View Post
                  See I stated intimidation was used. When you threaten a country with invasion ... some would qualify that as intimidation. In the US we have a different name for this tactic ... we call it a shotgun wedding.

                  Now all you got to ask is ... why do you desire to present as a joyous occasion for Austrians?

                  "Hitler sent an ultimatum to Schuschnigg on 11 March, demanding that he hand over all power to the Austrian National Socialists or face an invasion."

                  All that you say is true, Michael, but just as a historical sidenote : The "Anschluss" was in the eyes of german nationalists the completion of a dream that was already over a century old at that time : The so-called "greater german solution". During the events and conflicts of the early 19th century that culminated in the foundation of the second empire under prussian leadership essentially two states were competing for that award, Prussia and Austria. The austrian emperors had been heirs of the "holy roman" crown (though largely symbolically) until 1806, but a main counter-argument against offering the crown of the new unification effort was that Austria/Hungary included too many non-german peoples ( such as Hungarians, Poles, Ukrainians, Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks etc.) And after Austria also suffered military defeat against Prussia (1866), the case was closed.
                  When the modern alpine republic of Austria emerged however, the cards were mixed for another round. And not only did many Austrians openly sympathize with the Nazis aspirations to unify all german(ic) peoples, it evidently wasnt necessary to force people to cheer for Hitler on the Heldenplatz square in Vienna in 1938. That doesnt excuse one iota of what the Nazis did. But it should be seen in historical perspective.

                  German question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...ism_in_Austria
                  Last edited by Voland; 02-15-2012, 01:43 AM.

                  ?


                  • #10
                    Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

                    Originally posted by michael h View Post
                    Nazi thing
                    At first I said that this thread is not a claim for an Anschluss.

                    The Black or White view of Germany is sad indeed. The Anschluss was a good thing compared with the "liberations" you claim to carry out. Your "liberations" are nothing but butcherly crimes and you have nothing to do but blame other countries. There you have your double moral standards.
                    All those "democrats" are astonishing silence when the bombs fall time and again. But when another country takes back a part of its territory, like Iraq or Serbia, its evil.

                    ?


                    • #11
                      Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

                      Originally posted by Bleipriester View Post
                      At first I said that this thread is not a claim for an Anschluss.

                      The Black or White view of Germany is sad indeed. The Anschluss was a good thing compared with the "liberations" you claim to carry out. Your "liberations" are nothing but butcherly crimes and you have nothing to do but blame other countries. There you have your double moral standards.
                      All those "democrats" are astonishing silence when the bombs fall time and again. But when another country takes back a part of its territory, like Iraq or Serbia, its evil.
                      I was never against a unified Germany ... as I said I favored the Hohenzollern's over the Hapsburg's ... I never knew exactly why ... maybe because of the militaristic nature of Brandenburg/Prussia, to see the Germanic peoples united by something other then a bloodline, or maybe because the Hapsburgs were all over the place. Or all. I admired the the Hohenzollern's and Bismarck ... although they were not without fault. I did not admire the Nazi's ... nor their goals and methods (black and white). I enjoyed the history of empires ... but nowadays the effects of these empire builders strike close to home.

                      Now for those who suffered while some cheered in Austria ... I see no double standard ... the situation was not resolved by Austria, it was resolved by Hitler. Bismarck and Hitler methods are similar and both were racists ... yet I find Bismarck admirable and Hitler a POS.

                      On double standards ... I live in the US ... and see the use of our military to negative ends / improper ends (thats my opinion and the use is supported by both pubs and dems). However how does that change when someone else does it? Both parties are guilty of aggression ... the perfect example of a double standard when one is applauded and the other shunned.

                      A little on the US civil war. The industrialized US (primarily north) was an external target ... of GB / French / Spanish and London / Rothschild banking interests opposed to the Monroe doctrine. Those interests attempted to control our country through banking and division ... intent upon having a cheap supply of non tariffed materials as an end result. Similar to those external interests who did not desire to see a unified Germany. The war happened and the end result was still the US .... and if the south had won I suspect we would still have the US ... just different leadership.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

                        Originally posted by Voland View Post
                        All that you say is true, Michael, but just as a historical sidenote : The "Anschluss" was in the eyes of german nationalists the completion of a dream that was already over a century old at that time : The so-called "greater german solution". During the events and conflicts of the early 19th century that culminated in the foundation of the second empire under prussian leadership essentially two states were competing for that award, Prussia and Austria. The austrian emperors had been heirs of the "holy roman" crown (though largely symbolically) until 1806, but a main counter-argument against offering the crown of the new unification effort was that Austria/Hungary included too many non-german peoples ( such as Hungarians, Poles, Ukrainians, Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks etc.) And after Austria also suffered military defeat against Prussia (1866), the case was closed.
                        When the modern alpine republic of Austria emerged however, the cards were mixed for another round. And not only did many Austrians openly sympathize with the Nazis aspirations to unify all german(ic) peoples, it evidently wasnt necessary to force people to cheer for Hitler on the Heldenplatz square in Vienna in 1938. That doesnt excuse one iota of what the Nazis did. But it should be seen in historical perspective.

                        German question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                        German nationalism in Austria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                        One of the reasons I favored the Hohenzollern's was the Hapsburg's themselves. Their empire and interests lay everywhere and elsewhere ... they were not "Germanic" in interests. Also they were "weaker" militarily because of their far reaching interests. I was though ... aware of those who would not be forced or intimidated to cheer. I was also aware of those chased down trying to flee. Also I fairly certain there were plenty cheering ... who had nothing to cheer for.

                        Legitimizing an action is fairly relative when it comes to nation and empire building ... there is generally a fair amount of victims underfoot ... and I know you are aware of this more then most.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

                          Originally posted by michael h View Post
                          One of the reasons I favored the Hohenzollern's was the Hapsburg's themselves. Their empire and interests lay everywhere and elsewhere ... they were not "Germanic" in interests. Also they were "weaker" militarily because of their far reaching interests. I was though ... aware of those who would not be forced or intimidated to cheer. I was also aware of those chased down trying to flee. Also I fairly certain there were plenty cheering ... who had nothing to cheer for.

                          Legitimizing an action is fairly relative when it comes to nation and empire building ... there is generally a fair amount of victims underfoot ... and I know you are aware of this more then most.
                          1. I always found the Habsburg monarchy to be more "sympathetic" in a way, partially because it was a relic from pre-nationstate times and in that sense, with its multicultural touch and coexistence that was peaceful over long periods though not free of tensions looks a bit more like modern Europe as well. Its downsides are unquestionable as well, but Vienna in these days was a lot more open and tolerant place than Berlin.
                          The Hohenzollern monarchy on the other hand, with its militarism and its embrace of militant nationalism has led Germany and Europe into some of its worst chapters of history. But nevertheless it is obviously a fascinating period.


                          2. I was not at all letigimizing something that cannot be letigimized. I was pointing out however that at least in 1938 the number of those more or less welcoming the "Anschluss" was considerable ( speculation about approval in percent is questionable though for the simple reason that polls were either not made or are clearly unreliable). Support certainly dropped with the course of the war ( just like the popularity of the Nazis in Germany as well), but that doesnt change the fact that Austria wasnt occupied in the same sense as f.e. the Netherlands or Belgium, not to mention Eastern Europe.
                          Austrians also held high positions in the german leadership till 1945, something that was impossible for even the most reliable Nazi collaborators in non-germanic countries.
                          Still it was an action by a bloodthirsty dictatorship marching over corpses ( but also those of german Nazi enemies). I dont at all mean to sound apologetic.
                          I am too perfectly aware of the "Anschluss" of Luxembourg, another "germanic" country annexed in 1940 :

                          German occupation of Luxembourg in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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                          • #14
                            Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

                            Originally posted by Voland View Post
                            1. I always found the Habsburg monarchy to be more "sympathetic" in a way, partially because it was a relic from pre-nationstate times and in that sense, with its multicultural touch and coexistence that was peaceful over long periods though not free of tensions looks a bit more like modern Europe as well. Its downsides are unquestionable as well, but Vienna in these days was a lot more open and tolerant place than Berlin.
                            The Hohenzollern monarchy on the other hand, with its militarism and its embrace of militant nationalism has led Germany and Europe into some of its worst chapters of history. But nevertheless it is obviously a fascinating period.


                            2. I was not at all letigimizing something that cannot be letigimized. I was pointing out however that at least in 1938 the number of those more or less welcoming the "Anschluss" was considerable ( speculation about approval in percent is questionable though for the simple reason that polls were either not made or are clearly unreliable). Support certainly dropped with the course of the war ( just like the popularity of the Nazis in Germany as well), but that doesnt change the fact that Austria wasnt occupied in the same sense as f.e. the Netherlands or Belgium, not to mention Eastern Europe.
                            Austrians also held high positions in the german leadership till 1945, something that was impossible for even the most reliable Nazi collaborators in non-germanic countries.
                            Still it was an action by a bloodthirsty dictatorship marching over corpses ( but also those of german Nazi enemies). I dont at all mean to sound apologetic.
                            I am too perfectly aware of the "Anschluss" of Luxembourg, another "germanic" country annexed in 1940 :

                            German occupation of Luxembourg in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                            History is fascinating ... empires / imperialism ... I think if I lived in the 1870's I would not have as much admiration for Bismarck ... is much the point I was trying to make. Modern imperialism is close to us and we see and learn of the victims. Had I been closer to the age of any empire ... it might not carry a lustrous shine.

                            The other thought is that Austria being mostly German and its takeover by the Nazi's. I might mention I'm part German and have a German surname ... but ... it comes across as an apology to basically call the takeover "peaceful". America basically took over all it's lands from Indian's. Nobody is apologizing trying to call it anything other then what it was ... a takeover. That was the other part ... the almost apologetic nature of the post ... calling it peaceful. I was not thinking you were legitimizing BTW. I know from our discussions of Alsace, Lorraine, and Luxembourg ... that you are well aware of nation building and being caught "underfoot" in nationalistic matters.

                            Legitimization for me would have been a vote by the Austrians ... but empire building does not require such things ... nor do empires require apologies and I wasn't aiming the apologetic comment at you ... it was for the Daniel's.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Opinion: Germany - Austria

                              Originally posted by michael h View Post
                              History is fascinating ... empires / imperialism ... I think if I lived in the 1870's I would not have as much admiration for Bismarck ... is much the point I was trying to make. Modern imperialism is close to us and we see and learn of the victims. Had I been closer to the age of any empire ... it might not carry a lustrous shine.

                              The other thought is that Austria being mostly German and its takeover by the Nazi's. I might mention I'm part German and have a German surname ... but ... it comes across as an apology to basically call the takeover "peaceful". America basically took over all it's lands from Indian's. Nobody is apologizing trying to call it anything other then what it was ... a takeover. That was the other part ... the almost apologetic nature of the post ... calling it peaceful. I was not thinking you were legitimizing BTW. I know from our discussions of Alsace, Lorraine, and Luxembourg ... that you are well aware of nation building and being caught "underfoot" in nationalistic matters.

                              Legitimization for me would have been a vote by the Austrians ... but empire building does not require such things ... nor do empires require apologies and I wasn't aiming the apologetic comment at you ... it was for the Daniel's.

                              What destroyed the Habsburg monarchy ( as well as the Ottoman empire by the way, and ultimately also sealed the german emperors fate) was something that was actually a quite recent phenomenon by european history standards. Actually it is something ( judged by the number of victims) more disastrous than all ideological fights of the 20th century, since it still raises its ugly head, for example on the Balcans in recent years : The concept of nation-states (all Germans in one state, as well as all Slaws, all French, but also all Serbs, all Croats etc.). And since Europe, except some remote corners, is the very definition of an ethnic mess since the origins of history that idea is a sure recipe for the endless repetition of conflicts over lost borders, territories, compensation and whatever. In the beginning this idea came up during the enlightment and was actually meant to promote democratic reforms against absolutist rulers ( such as pictured in the notorious lines: "Deutschland, Deutschland ber alles" that was actually meant as a call for all Germans spread over countless little states to stand together to achieve political unity and not an expression of superiority above other nations).
                              Before Europeans had gone to war and slaughtered each other for countless reasons, but nationalism had rather played a minor role before that period. Napoleons armies for example included soldiers from many nations, including Bavarians that fought against Prussians (" you fucking Prussian" is still a popular curse in Bavaria today ), northern Italians that fought southern Italians etc., and all in the french emperors army. Or take Frederick the Greats admission to speak French with his court and German with his horses ...
                              The modern Germans f.e. are a complex mixture of celtic, germanic and slawic peoples and since roman times huge parts of the country have beeen governed by other powers ( Rhine/Moselle were french, the kingdom of Hanover british, Denmarks border was just outside Hamburg back in the days, and the territories gained and lost in the East have changed rule and majority population more than once). At the same time "holy roman" emperors (Germans) had also ruled over non-german peoples ( such as Italians, French and various slawic peoples) since the middle ages, but in the days prior to nationalism that had not been much of a problem. The emperors "letigimacy" was based on other considerations than language.
                              Ergo "Germany" was rather a vague idea in the heads of intellectuals than a reality up until the 19th century. That is why playing with nationalism as binding glue was so tempting for the founders of the second empire and also why it was so disastrous ultimately. Austria/Hungary on the other hand was based on the rule of a decaying medieval dynasty ( that was actually rather supranational in perspective and in that sense ironically again pretty modern) that could not offer the Czechs, Slowaks, Hungarians and others a more attractive alternative to demanding their own state once the country was defeated in WW I. And it sadly took the experience of another catastrophy (WW II) and the European Union to leave the era of nationalism behind and replace with an idea that is actually more accurate regarding Europes history. That the nations of the continent also have a common history and are better off to work together on common solutions, as complicated and slow as that may be sometimes.. Everywhere...
                              Last edited by Voland; 02-16-2012, 03:07 AM.

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