Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules - You must read(Updated!)

DISCLAIMER

You agree to NOT use this site or its affiliated sites, services you may have access to as a result of being a member here (subscriber or otherwise), to post items (images, textual material, etc.) that are pornographic in nature, illegal in the United States and/or the country you reside in, support or encourage illegal activities (e.g., terrorism), advertise for your own personal profit, or send unsolicited messages (i.e. SPAM) to members or non-members.

AND

You agree that if any clause or component of this document is found to not be legally binding in a court of law of proper jurisdiction then the remainder of this document shall remain fully binding and in full force.

AND

You agree to NOT hold Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (makers of the forum software), uspoliticsonline.com, sites affiliated with uspoliticsonline.com, its administrators, its moderators, others associated with its operation, and its owners liable for any and all of the following (in whole or in part):
Personal insults/attacks by other members.
The content posted by other members, whether directed at you personally or a label/classification you associate with. This includes remarks you consider to be libelous or slanderous in any way.
Any financial or time loss due to your participation here or as a result of something you read at this site, including posts/PMs by other members and feature(s)/software available at the domain uspoliticsonline.com.
The dissemination of any personal information about you as a result of either your negligence (e.g. staying logged into a computer that others have access to) or willingness to post such information on a public and or private forum, private message or chat box. This includes using your real name or other details that could allow other members and/or the general public to determine your true identity. You are prohibited from using your real name on these forums, either as your username or in posts / PMs you write.

FORUM RULES, IN ADDITION TO THE DISCLAIMER

1. These rules apply to all sections of USPOL, including public and private forums, blogs, and visitor messages.

2. You cannot attack and/or personally insult someone. You cannot bait other forum members; this includes referring to posters by derogatory terms. Please, remain courteous and respectful to all forum members at all times. You agree to take responsibility for reporting such posts when you come across them. Please, use the ignore feature if need be. Any member who intentionally and continually posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response, or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, may be regarded as a troll by staff, and have their account suspended or banned.

3. You cannot harass (sexually or otherwise) other members. This includes malicious, slanderous, or defamatory comments. If you are not sure if something you write is inappropriate or not then don't say it. Err on the side of caution.

4. Copying and Pasting Articles, and Starting New Threads. You cannot simply cut and paste in posts or when starting threads. You MUST provide the identifying information (source, author, date, and URL). You must also offer some original thoughts along with the cut and paste. You may copy and paste an excerpt or series of excerpts from the article. Excerpts really shouldnt be more then a paragraph or two. Furthermore, if you use images or other copyrighted material in your posts or signature you must have permission of the copyright holder unless you know for a fact that the image is in the public domain. In addition:
a. It must include the identifying information; e.g., where available, the author, the publication, the date, the URL.
b. The member must offer some context, including: How did you hear of this article? What is your opinion? Why is it important to you? Why should it be important to forum readers? The more context you provide, the more you assist others in gauging the excerpted information's significance.
c. You may copy and paste an excerpt or series of excerpts, not the whole thing or even the majority of the whole thing to encourage people to read the entire article.

A violation of any of the above will result in the deletion or closing of the post or thread and could earn you a warning or suspension. If you have any questions concering any of the above please PM a moderator and we will be happy to clarify.

5. You cannot post the same thing in multiple forums. You must not open similar threads about the same or a similar topic. You cannot spam the board or send unsolicited messages to members via PM, email or any other means.

6. Do not post off-topic. You cannot derail a thread with off topic posts.

7. You cannot shout in posts. This includes posting in all CAPS, bold, lIkE tHiS, and extra large font. Posts should also be one color, although you may use an additional color for highlighting ideas you wish to address.

8. You may not alter quotes in a way that misrepresents what was originally said.

9. Multiple accounts are not allowed. If you are found to have more than one account all accounts will be permanently terminated.

10. You cannot have a user name, avatar, signature, or post images that are deliberately offensive. That includes the display of overly explicit or graphic images that may not be suitable for minors.

11. Signatures can not have more than three lines of text, with a font size no larger than "4", and no more than two font colors. Images in signatures cannot be any larger than 800 pixels wide x 200 pixels tall. Animated images are not allowed.

12. You are prohibited from taking any action to disturb the use of the services by others, distribute material that contains viruses, spyware or any other malicious code or harmful programs. This includes interfering with the working of the network, attempts to gain unauthorized access to a service or other computer systems that are part of the site or any other site, by use of the available services.

13. Discussion of moderation actions in public and/or private forums is not permitted. Moderation actions include warnings, suspensions and the editing or deletion of posts. If a member has a concern about a moderation action, he or she is invited to address it with the board staff via Private Message. This rule exists to protect the privacy of all posters with regards to disciplinary action. The moderator team will never publicly discuss the warnings/suspensions of any posters, and we ask that you return the favor, whether about yourself or another poster. Posting about moderation actions in the public forums constitutes a violation. You are free to discuss a moderation action via Private Message with the moderator involved, but you may not harass or abuse the moderators (as already specified in the forum rules). In practical terms, this means that once a moderator tells you his or her decision is final, no further PMs about that moderation action are permitted. If you have a concern about a moderation action, you are free to appeal to a Forum Administrator via Private Message. You may only discuss moderator activities or discussion of moderation with staff member if you chose to private message and are not under any circumstances allowed to use the PM function to forward or promote moderator discussion in regards to specific forum action, amongst other regular members. Administrators do reserve the right to read said PMs and may do so ; if that results in discovery of messaging between posters of such moderator discussion then it will lead to the same violation being received for discussing said moderator actions on the forum. If you receive a message to the effect of having been given moderator information, please report it to a member of staff. Engaging back in that discussion with the original violator will earn you just as stiff a sanction.

14. Do not ignore moderators or administrators. Do not repost something a moderator or administrator has deleted. You cannot have moderators or administrators on your ignore list.

15. Only post in English. Short passages in foreign languages may be acceptable if its use seems helpful for the ongoing discussion and when there is no indication of a potential violation of the forum rules. Always provide a translation into English in such cases. In case of doubt, the incident will be regarded as a violation, no matter of the actual meaning of the foreign language text.

16. The use of words/comments etc. written by other posters, without approval of the poster in your personal signature is not allowed nor are references, by name, to other posters allowed.

17. Please pay attention to announcements by Forum staff that will be found in the "Welcome! / News & Announcements" forum from time to time.

18. Use of "liar", "lies", "lying", etc. Accusing someone of being a "liar" or similar accusations towards other posters will generally be regarded as implying an insult and therewith as a violation of the forum rules. "I question the validity of your statement because...", "That's not the truth" or "you are wrong about that" are sufficient for any decent discussion if you want to disagree with somebody's assertions.

19. Thread opening restriction for new members. In order to control SPAM, new members must have moderator approval to start their own threads.

20. Thread titles must relate to the discussion within. Do not make misleading titles, or titles such as "Guess what..." or "You'll never believe this...". Members need to be able to identify the general gist of the thread via the title. Profanity in thread titles is not permitted.

21. Forum members are instructed to use forum tools and abilities for their intended purposes and no other. If members identify a forum glitch or weakness of any kind that allows you to see or do something you know you shouldn't, please report it. Being aware of any unintended access to the Forum and failing to take appropriate steps to notify staff of said access issues, will create a presumption of seeking to take advantage of the issue, will result in either account suspension, or banishment.

22. Any link to a site that contains graphic content, must contain a warning describing what a person might reasonably expect to view if they click on said link. No graphic pictures are to be posted on the Forum.

23. Threats or advocations of violence toward a public figure, or member of the Forum, will not be tolerated. Conversation about revolution or the like is not prohibited by this rule; directly calling for violence is, eg It's time to kill every <redacted> that voted for the bill, is not permitted.

24. Accounts with no posts will be deleted after 30 days. Inactive accounts with low post histories may be deleted after one year.

25. Private forums are something offered to members that decide to contribute directly to this site via donations. These donations help immensely in keeping this site up and running. Private forums are designed to allow the contributing member discuss whatever he/she wants to and to have the power to direct that discussion in whatever way he/she chose. They were not designed nor are they intended for simply talking trash about members that don't have access to the forum. While the targeted members cannot see the forum or the comments, it creates a negative atmosphere that really isn't necessary. If you want to totally rip apart ideas, ideologies, political parties, etc. that is fine. We simply ask that you don't use the private forums as a means to attack other members that aren't privy to such comments. It is difficult enough to have a political discussion forum because the discussion of politics is inherently heated as people are so passionate about their beliefs...the ones that take the time to come to such a site in the first place at least. The idea of private forums is so people of similar political persuasions can discuss whatever they want without fear of being attacked. Nonetheless, we hope that a certain level of maturity would foster itself within such an arena and not simply lend itself to a bashing forum.

Private Forums are governed by all of the above Forum rules. In addition:
  • Private forums that essentially become abandoned homes will be subject to deletion, donation or reorganization. Just like elsewhere in life, clubs sometimes lose their vitality and purpose for a myriad of reasons. If it becomes clear that a private forum has clearly lost its vitality and nobody is going to really use it anymore, owners are advised to consider whether to reuse the forum for something new and productive rather than let them linger or notify the Administration that the forum should be rearranged for other purposes, closed, merged with other compatible private forums, donated to others for new purposes, etc. Do not be concerned that your forum must be a membership and post count race with others to avoid falling under this policy; the question is whether your forum has actual vitality instead of being 'brain dead.'
  • Additionally, private forums may only be owned by subscribed members in the Platinum or Diamond categories.
  • Should the owner of a private forum be banned, quit USPOL or otherwise abandon the forum the PF will be transferred to another owner or closed.
  • Propriety of private forums. Administration staff will determine the desirability of a proposed private forum and enact any conditions upon it to ensure its purpose is productive.
  • Any and all instances of sharing accounts by allowing someone else to log in under their own account so they can see into private forums for which they are otherwise not permitted to access, will be deemed violation of the double account rule and all caught doing so will be permanently banned.
  • Relaying private forum posts and information to other posters who are not members of the particular private forum for any negative or destructive purpose (eg mean-spirited gossip, fueling interpersonal disputes, etc), is not permitted, and will constitute a violation of the Forum rules.
  • For purposes of monitoring USPOL Terms of Service Administrative staff (not Moderators) will have access to Private Forums.
  • All Private Forums must have at least one active Administrator as a member for purposes of handling issues which cannot be addressed through moderation permissions.
  • Discussion of moderation activities is prohibited on the open site and is likewise prohibited in Private Forums.

26. The administrators and moderators reserve the right to edit and/or delete a post,and/or close a thread, and/or delete a thread at any time if of the opinion that the post is too obscene, inappropriate, or the discussion has run its course.

27. 'Back seat moderating' is not allowed. If you take issue with another poster's contribution to the forum, you're welcome to report any posts you think are out of line, but you should not bring it up publicly within the forum.

28. Images in posts (whether embedded or hot linked) must be reasonable in size. 800x800 should be considered a good rule of thumb. Excessively large images make it difficult for users on mobile devices to load pages. If necessary please simply link to very large images using the URL tags. In addition, the following images are not permitted (including, but not limited to pages with images or videos containing):
  • Strategically covered nudity
  • Sheer or see-through clothing
  • Lewd or provocative poses
  • Close-ups of breasts, buttocks, or crotches

29. Any solicitation or communication involving sports betting / gambling / online casinos / bookies and or internet based card or slot machine systems or sites will lead to all said content being physically removed from the site and server, and will lead to any and or all parties involved being permanently removed and banned from the site to the farthest extent possible. This includes any links to any form of bookmaker, casino, any type of game or match or event where money transfers on the outcome or link of any sort to wire act violations and or anything in violation of either the Internet Gambling Regulation, Consumer Protection, and Enforcement Act, Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006, or the Federal wire Act. This applies not only to the open forum but all and or any chat rooms, articles, private messages and or private forums. All content that violates this rule will be deleted, without notice.

CONSEQUENCES

Failure to comply with any of the forum rules may result in your posts being edited or deleted and/or your account being temporarily or permanently banned from the forums. U.S. Politics Online uses a warning system that generates an automated Private Message to members when they are in violation of Forum rules. The decision to issue a warning is left to the discretion of the moderator or administrator handling the violation. If a member does not agree with an action taken by a moderator, they can appeal to an administrator after seeking clarification from the moderator who issued the warning/infraction and appealing to them in the first instance. Members MAY NOT harass a moderator or administrator by sending excessive PMs when they are discussing an appeal.

Violations are assigned a point value. Points are valid for 30 days. When a members earns 10 points, their account will be automatically suspended: five (5) days for a first suspension; ten (10) days for a second suspension; and twenty (20) days for a third suspension. If a member incurs an additional 10 points after having served three periods of suspension, then they will be permanently banned from the Forum.

Point values are as follows:
Zero (0) points Warning
Two (2) points - Minor infraction / Non post infraction (minor) / Off topic posts / spamming
Four (4) points - Academic dishonesty / Baiting / Discussing moderator or administrator actions / Implying an insult / Minor insults / Moderate infraction / Non-post infraction (moderate) / Thread dumping
Six (6) points - Direct insult at another member / major infraction / Non-post infraction (major)
Ten (10) points - Act of criminality, or advocating thereof

The administrators and moderators also bear the right to issue warnings, temporarily suspend or ban posters for continued trolling or other serious misconduct (eg. professional spamming) even if the poster has not yet reached the maximum warning points or suspensions level. Other options if the above consequences do not seem adequate include placing the member in a moderation queue, which means all posts will have to be approved before they are posted to the board.

PRIVACY POLICY

All information obtained by the end user via the registration process is for internal purposes only and will not be sold to or shared with any third parties. However, if the end user participates in illegal activities and a court of proper jurisdiction orders U.S. Politics Online to release certain information about said user then we will act according to the law. Furthermore, no information will be released on threat of a lawsuit, attempted or actual intimidation, or due to any other reason except as notated in the first sentence of this paragraph. Nonetheless, keep in mind that the information we do have is very limited and generally only consists of the IP address a member uses.

SUBSCRIPTIONS

U.S. Politics Online offers several subscription plans to help cover the operational costs of the site. As a thank you for your donation, you will receive special added benefits meant to enhance your U.S. Politics Online experience. Plans vary in price, starting at only $0.05/day, and benefits vary with the price. Benefits include ability to go straight to new posts, to search the forum, larger avatar, private forums, invisible mode, photo gallery, email, web hosting, and no advertisement banners. Please, click here for more details.
See more
See less

Hamburg : Operation Gomorrha marks 75 years

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hamburg : Operation Gomorrha marks 75 years

    The bombing of Dresden is along with Hiroshima, probably the most notorious and controversial "carpet bombing" by the Allies in WW II, yet the bombing of the northern german port city of Hamburg , nicknamed "Operation Gomorrha" was arguably one of the most brutal. Around 42000 civilians perished in a firestorm and most of the ancient hanseatic trading city was erased. Modern visitors to Hamburg will be able to confirm that the city, still (or again) one of Europes major ports, looks very modern -- because old Hamburg literally died--exactly 75 years ago. The impact of the bombing was so devastating that the Nazis kept Hamburg cordoned off for a while and that Hitler never visited the city again. These days there is a series of events all over Hamburg to commemorate "Operation Gomorrha" (also with time witnesses), including the rebirth of the city. With discussions, public readings, musical, theater and film performances and other ideas :




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombin...n_World_War_II



    https://www.tripadvisor.de/ShowUserR...l-Hamburg.html


    http://www.historynet.com/allied-aer...rld-war-ii.htm



    But here is also modern Hamburg, that has arguably used the opportunities that total devastation offered for urban planning


    https://www.hafencity.com


    https://www.google.de/search?q=hambu...w=1932&bih=922

  • #2
    Originally posted by Voland View Post
    The bombing of Dresden is along with Hiroshima, probably the most notorious and controversial "carpet bombing" by the Allies in WW II, yet the bombing of the northern german port city of Hamburg , nicknamed "Operation Gomorrha" was arguably one of the most brutal. Around 42000 civilians perished in a firestorm and most of the ancient hanseatic trading city was erased. Modern visitors to Hamburg will be able to confirm that the city, still (or again) one of Europes major ports, looks very modern -- because old Hamburg literally died--exactly 75 years ago. The impact of the bombing was so devastating that the Nazis kept Hamburg cordoned off for a while and that Hitler never visited the city again. These days there is a series of events all over Hamburg to commemorate "Operation Gomorrha" (also with time witnesses), including the rebirth of the city. With discussions, public readings, musical, theater and film performances and other ideas :




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombin...n_World_War_II



    https://www.tripadvisor.de/ShowUserR...l-Hamburg.html


    http://www.historynet.com/allied-aer...rld-war-ii.htm



    But here is also modern Hamburg, that has arguably used the opportunities that total devastation offered for urban planning


    https://www.hafencity.com


    https://www.google.de/search?q=hambu...w=1932&bih=922
    The end of that war was the first time all pretense was dropped, and "Total War" was the accepted condition (at least by military command). Here (perhaps), one origin of the phrase, "bomb them back to the stone age".
    ,,,Arthur Harris set out to concentrate all available forces for the progressive, systematic destruction of the urban areas of the Reich, city block by city block, factory by factory, until the enemy became a nation of troglodytes, scratching in the ruins.
    https://apjjf.org/-Mark-Selden/2414/article.html

    Fortunately, the Japanese end of that war guaranteed there would be a limit to carpet-bombing cities -at least in the developed part of the world. Nagasaki and Hiroshima demonstrated that those who must lead and prosecute the wars -politicians and military command- would now be exposed to near certain doom. One can take a vehicle out of the city when one knows there is a mass of lumbering, propeller powered aircraft due in an hour or two.

    When it deals with one aircraft -stealth, powered by jet engines- or an ICBM delivering a payload in a few minutes. ...And the entire city will be incinerated within seconds? The whole game changes. It is a cynical calculation on my part, but we would have suffered a World War III had nuclear payloads been delayed 20-30 years. Using napalm to incinerate 150,000 civilians in one strike? -No problem, as long as those strikes allow the leadership some lead time to protect itself. That can't be done when nearly instant delivery of a nuclear payload is possible.

    In less developed parts of the world, destroying large portions of urban areas would continue. From the same article:
    Indiscriminate bombing of noncombatants has been responsible for the most massive destruction and loss of life throughout this epoch, even while the US staunchly maintains that it does not deliberately kill civilians, thereby hewing to Conway-Lanzs collateral damage principle to protect it not only from political criticism in the US, but also from international criticisms.
    If the enemy can "burrow into" the civilian population, collateral damage can grow to very large numbers, even now. Syria is today's dismal example, as a desperate (and narcissistic) leader uses any means to "dig out" the enemy. From the common citizen to the nation's leader, a callous disregard for human life under conditions of war remains in place.

    ?


    • #3
      The flaw in our WWII, European strategy was, our leadership believed the Axis would capitulate if we showed them such human and infrastructure devastation. Unfortunately, it took standing on Hitler's doorstep, literally, for him to finally capitulate and he seemingly had no regard (or little regard) for human suffering that was all around him. Indeed, I'm not sure what we expected from the man responsible for the wanton destruction of 6 million Jews. That, in my opinion, is what hate can do to a man.

      I am not sure why the, as radcntr calls it, the "total war" did seem to work in the Pacific: The Japanese were beholding to the Bushido: A manual of life, if you will. The Bushido necessitated every man, woman, and child be prepared to die defending the homeland (and the emperor), and they were, in fact, preparing the populace for the inevitable invasion of the Japan mainland. Which would, mean significantly higher piles of dead than both Hiroshima and Nagasaki created. So, once it was clear that the U.S. was prepared to basically level Japan, they surrendered.

      ?


      • #4
        Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
        The flaw in our WWII, European strategy was, our leadership believed the Axis would capitulate if we showed them such human and infrastructure devastation. Unfortunately, it took standing on Hitler's doorstep, literally, for him to finally capitulate and he seemingly had no regard (or little regard) for human suffering that was all around him. Indeed, I'm not sure what we expected from the man responsible for the wanton destruction of 6 million Jews. That, in my opinion, is what hate can do to a man.

        I am not sure why the, as radcntr calls it, the "total war" did seem to work in the Pacific: The Japanese were beholding to the Bushido: A manual of life, if you will. The Bushido necessitated every man, woman, and child be prepared to die defending the homeland (and the emperor), and they were, in fact, preparing the populace for the inevitable invasion of the Japan mainland. Which would, mean significantly higher piles of dead than both Hiroshima and Nagasaki created. So, once it was clear that the U.S. was prepared to basically level Japan, they surrendered.


        Well, close to our place, just a few minutes down the road, one passes by an historic cemetery. It lies in the former moat of an historic fortress, and one section is separated from the others by a line of weeping willows. It is devoted to the victims of a "christmas" bombing that took place on Christmas Eve 1944, that perished when allied bombers hit the local church. Pretty much all were women, children and/or old people, because reasonably fit men of military age were either soldiers, POWs or dead by that time. The place had no military significance and the church wasnt hit by accident, since it was/is a landmark. The breathtaking cruelty of bombing a church on Christmas eve, packed with civilians that werent expecting an attack tells enough of what Britains "Bomber Harris" meant by "terrorizing Germans into surrender".
        The things is : It didnt work. People indiscriminately exposed to bombings, regardless wether Nazi, non Nazi or anti Nazi are less likely to turn on each other than against those bombing them. Psychologically. Hitlers propaganda minister Goebbels remarked (rightly) that there is "nothing of greater propaganda value than dead children wrapped in the flag" and german industry ? Even increased its production towards the end of the war. By moving facilities underground or to parts of the country that the bombers couldnt reach easily (such as the bavarian Alps).
        If the goal was to make Germans rise up against the Nazis than carpet bombing destroyed incredible cultural treasures and killed loads of people, but failed to achieve its goals. It much rather led to a solidarity effect with the regime.
        I understand though that in Japan the effect could have been the other way around (and why).

        ?


        • #5
          Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
          The flaw in our WWII, European strategy was, our leadership believed the Axis would capitulate if we showed them such human and infrastructure devastation. Unfortunately, it took standing on Hitler's doorstep, literally, for him to finally capitulate and he seemingly had no regard (or little regard) for human suffering that was all around him. Indeed, I'm not sure what we expected from the man responsible for the wanton destruction of 6 million Jews. That, in my opinion, is what hate can do to a man.

          I am not sure why the, as radcntr calls it, the "total war" did seem to work in the Pacific: The Japanese were beholding to the Bushido: A manual of life, if you will. The Bushido necessitated every man, woman, and child be prepared to die defending the homeland (and the emperor), and they were, in fact, preparing the populace for the inevitable invasion of the Japan mainland. Which would, mean significantly higher piles of dead than both Hiroshima and Nagasaki created. So, once it was clear that the U.S. was prepared to basically level Japan, they surrendered.
          During the last part of that war, Japan had one advantage that Germany did not: A leader that was more sane. Despite an attempt by the military faction to continue the war, Japan's emperor threw in the towel, in part to save his "subjects". Link:
          In the early hours of August 15, a military coup was attempted by a faction led by Major Kenji Hatanaka. The rebels seized control of the imperial palace and burned Prime Minister Suzuki’s residence, but shortly after dawn the coup was crushed. At noon that day, Emperor Hirohito went on national radio for the first time to announce the Japanese surrender. In his unfamiliar court language, he told his subjects, “we have resolved to pave the way for a grand peace for all the generations to come by enduring the unendurable and suffering what is insufferable.” The United States immediately accepted Japan’s surrender.
          https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...pan-surrenders

          The fatal irony for Germany was a certain level of sanity at nearly all levels of their military command, except the highest level, along with their SS. What we in the US often considered their best solution (bumping off Hitler) was likely more difficult than we realize, when considering the SS command spread wide across the German's military structure (with roots planted in their political organization as well). The allied command was in deadly agreement with the SS at that point: Total War would continue, and there would be no quarter given. Without a successful assassination of Hitler and a significant portion of the SS command, the devastation of the final months (and partition by the Soviet Union) was inevitable. As Voland points out, it was a stupid strategy (what inspires a teenager to go up against a US tank? Answer: They had no other convincing information to the contrary, including their personal experience).

          Had the western powers wanted to keep the Soviet Union outside the territory of Poland (let alone Germany), it would have done whatever it could to aid von Stauffenberg's co-conspirators, in exchange for dialing back it's western-front version of "Total War". Easy for me to say that here and now though; the Soviet Union did most of the heavy lifting for the allies and was going to prosecute total destruction regardless, while Germany was anything but predictable or otherwise a "safe bet" to follow thru with any agreements at the time. The risk, to minimize the Soviet Union's influence post war (and save a few hundred thousand lives), only became obvious after the fact.

          ?


          • #6
            Originally posted by radcentr View Post

            As Voland points out, it was a stupid strategy (what inspires a teenager to go up against a US tank? Answer: They had no other convincing information to the contrary, including their personal experience).

            I know, just anecdotical, but you will find many of these anecdotes in Germany :
            A couple of cilometres down the Moselle river from us, there is a bridge that has been there since roman times (well, at least the columns). It has without doubt witnessed more than one army passing in each direction over the centuries, since this is the place where France and Germany meet after all. It is surrounded by hilly, craggy terrain, partially planted with wineyards and on one side overlooked by a massive rock, also known as the "crowsnest". At the bottom of that rock there is a chapel and a small memorial. It commemorates a battle in early 1945, when a bunch of Hitler youth boys, noone older then sixteen, tried to stop the advancing Americans. Using the cover that the landscape provided, while the Americans tried to cross the bridge. The boys armament was cobbled together, they were fearful and ( obviously) inexperienced and they had no chance. They managed to damage a few tanks and shoot two or three soldiers, but when the Americans got air cover all of them except two were killed. I once met one of these two. And he told me that yes, of course, it was a "go to heaven fast" kind of idea. Yet the boys (most had run away from their families to "defend" the bridge) were convinced that the Americans had arrived to finish what they hadnt accomplished with the "terror" bombings.
            One shouldnt underestimate that in days prior to the internet and social media controlling peoples access to information was relatively easy. Especially if the official version was seemingly proven right. Like with the bombings, that obviously targetted the civilian population.

            ?


            • #7
              Originally posted by Voland View Post


              I know, just anecdotical, but you will find many of these anecdotes in Germany :
              A couple of cilometres down the Moselle river from us, there is a bridge that has been there since roman times (well, at least the columns). It has without doubt witnessed more than one army passing in each direction over the centuries, since this is the place where France and Germany meet after all. It is surrounded by hilly, craggy terrain, partially planted with wineyards and on one side overlooked by a massive rock, also known as the "crowsnest". At the bottom of that rock there is a chapel and a small memorial. It commemorates a battle in early 1945, when a bunch of Hitler youth boys, noone older then sixteen, tried to stop the advancing Americans. Using the cover that the landscape provided, while the Americans tried to cross the bridge. The boys armament was cobbled together, they were fearful and ( obviously) inexperienced and they had no chance. They managed to damage a few tanks and shoot two or three soldiers, but when the Americans got air cover all of them except two were killed. I once met one of these two. And he told me that yes, of course, it was a "go to heaven fast" kind of idea. Yet the boys (most had run away from their families to "defend" the bridge) were convinced that the Americans had arrived to finish what they hadnt accomplished with the "terror" bombings.
              One shouldnt underestimate that in days prior to the internet and social media controlling peoples access to information was relatively easy. Especially if the official version was seemingly proven right. Like with the bombings, that obviously targetted the civilian population.
              There was a film by one of the US' better directors, John Huston. Called "Let There Be Light", looks like a crass propaganda piece for the military in the opening credits. Link:
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiD6bnqpJDE

              It is something more profound, however. It was kept under wraps for a full 30 years due to it's material, "shell shock" (now known as PTSD or "Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome"). Apparently it was kept, rather than destroyed outright, as a useful training piece for psychologists (also battlefield officers? -maybe). It needs to be seen by citizens who believe the Hollywood version of warfare, before we make decisions on entering into military conflict. There are two categories of soldier that come back with mental issues in a given war: A certain number on the losing side of pitched battles, and some on the winning side. The lucky ones make reasonable adjustments after time. The irony for those on the winning side seems to be their lack of support from fellow citizens. "We won the war, why would he need any help?"

              ?


              • #8
                Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                There was a film by one of the US' better directors, John Huston. Called "Let There Be Light", looks like a crass propaganda piece for the military in the opening credits. Link:
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiD6bnqpJDE

                It is something more profound, however. It was kept under wraps for a full 30 years due to it's material, "shell shock" (now known as PTSD or "Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome"). Apparently it was kept, rather than destroyed outright, as a useful training piece for psychologists (also battlefield officers? -maybe). It needs to be seen by citizens who believe the Hollywood version of warfare, before we make decisions on entering into military conflict. There are two categories of soldier that come back with mental issues in a given war: A certain number on the losing side of pitched battles, and some on the winning side. The lucky ones make reasonable adjustments after time. The irony for those on the winning side seems to be their lack of support from fellow citizens. "We won the war, why would he need any help?"


                Germany is a fascinating reasearch field for traumatologists, because by 1945 pretty much the entire nation was traumatized. Wether soldiers with horrific and unforgettable experiences, survivors of the carpet bombings, or just eyewitnesses. I know that quite a couple of people in our area avoided ( and still avoid) a certain old oak tree on the outskirts of our place, that was designated a natural monument in 2000-something. Because they had witnessed the SS hanging "cowards" from its branches, with the population forced to watch. I once had a teacher at school who was the son of a noble family from eastern Prussia. His mum, a duchess, had pulled him all the way from Knigsberg ( today russian baltic sea exclave) to Hamburg -- on a hay cart. The family castle had gone up in smoke under bombs, his dad had been killed in Italy, the Russians were on their heels, and it was deep winter. He said his mom was all her life too emotionally paralyzed to talk about these experiences. I know that my own grandad, who had fought pretty much the entire war ( although I know for a fact that he hated the Nazis) was never interested in talking about the war and usually avoided the subject, even when asked. ("Son, it is bad enough that I remember. Why do you want to spoil your happiness ?") Or I have friends that found out that their beloved grandad had seen mass killings of Jews behind the eastern front ( wether he also participated is unclear) that he had always kept buried in his memory--until he got Dementia in his old age and started to talk.
                There is the theory that post-war rebuilding went so fast, because people tried to work away their traumata, that usually went untreated in this time. Which also affects the next ( my parents) generation, not always in bad ways, but it does.
                This is an interesting link about a german TV series from a few years ago that has brought many of these stories to the surface


                http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-891349.html

                ?


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Voland View Post



                  Germany is a fascinating reasearch field for traumatologists, because by 1945 pretty much the entire nation was traumatized. Wether soldiers with horrific and unforgettable experiences, survivors of the carpet bombings, or just eyewitnesses. I know that quite a couple of people in our area avoided ( and still avoid) a certain old oak tree on the outskirts of our place, that was designated a natural monument in 2000-something. Because they had witnessed the SS hanging "cowards" from its branches, with the population forced to watch. I once had a teacher at school who was the son of a noble family from eastern Prussia. His mum, a duchess, had pulled him all the way from Knigsberg ( today russian baltic sea exclave) to Hamburg -- on a hay cart. The family castle had gone up in smoke under bombs, his dad had been killed in Italy, the Russians were on their heels, and it was deep winter. He said his mom was all her life too emotionally paralyzed to talk about these experiences. I know that my own grandad, who had fought pretty much the entire war ( although I know for a fact that he hated the Nazis) was never interested in talking about the war and usually avoided the subject, even when asked. ("Son, it is bad enough that I remember. Why do you want to spoil your happiness ?") Or I have friends that found out that their beloved grandad had seen mass killings of Jews behind the eastern front ( wether he also participated is unclear) that he had always kept buried in his memory--until he got Dementia in his old age and started to talk.
                  There is the theory that post-war rebuilding went so fast, because people tried to work away their traumata, that usually went untreated in this time. Which also affects the next ( my parents) generation, not always in bad ways, but it does.
                  This is an interesting link about a german TV series from a few years ago that has brought many of these stories to the surface


                  http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-891349.html
                  ...A sober lesson for any individual, whether or not we are familiar with military experience. Most US citizens have no real idea of the experience of war today, nor did they have a handle on WWII. My father served in N. Africa and Italy, but as a mail clerk. I thought it couldn't have been all that bad, but he didn't want to talk about it much. He was just "administrative support", not involved in battles. Mother explained it to us, some years after dad passed away. A little over 60% of his division were casualties by the time Kesselring's defense was finished in Italy. It was more than likely that many companions, some friends since N. Africa, were killed or badly wounded, just as the war was entering into it's last year. The one (and only) story dad told us about "combat" was this one: After one long battle (a day and night affair), his superiors instructed him to take a small group for reconnaissance (he rank was corporal, one step above private). since he could speak a little German, and had a fair understanding when others spoke. Dad joked about his lack of competence with firearms, and his fellow clerks weren't much better, but off to patrol the newly created wasteland, they went. "Generally a mess", was as much detail as he told his kids, regarding what he saw. Then came the part about his "heroic" capture of a buncha German soldiers. He and his fellow paper shufflers were standing about on a cigarette break, all of them gazing (stupidly) in the same direction at the wreckage. Dad hears a tired voice in German: "Excuse me.. We wish to surrender." He turned around to face a battlefield officer with 3 soldiers, looking like they had been dragged thru Hell. The officer had his pistol by the barrel ready to hand it over, but he needed to verify his men were now safe. Surprised that he and his comrades weren't suffering from gunshot wounds at that moment, Dad stuttered out some words to reassure the officer he understood a little Deutsch. The officer immediately relaxed a little bit, what was left of his squad also secured their rifles. Again, the officer stated he was surrendering and wanted to know his men would be treated fairly. "We are finished" (with the war), he said. He practically had to place the butt of his pistol in my dad's hands, which were definitely shaking more than the war-weary officer. The pistol clip still had a few rounds, too. Dad told us that was pretty much it; the Germans gave up their weapons, chatted a little with dad (food, prisoner conditions), and he helped translate for his squad and superiors when he got back to post. He didn't ask what happened to the officer's squad (he was at the equivalent of lieutenant rank), and the Germans didn't volunteer the information. Most were gone, a few survived, and that was it.

                  It didn't occur to my 8-year old self, the missing parts of my dad's 'war story". He was chosen to patrol with other unqualified (for battle) soldiers, because all his qualified peers were either further up the line securing that zone, or they were severely wounded, or they were dead. IOW, part of his squad's duties were to identify (& collect?) body parts if they could be identified and given a proper burial. More likely that was their primary duty, since his battle-experienced peers and medics had already moved thru the area. That was Italy for him. Replacements came in soon after to continue killing people and breaking things, he went back to the humble task of delivering mail, and a few months later the army "prepared" him to go back to civilian life.

                  ?


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                    ...A sober lesson for any individual, whether or not we are familiar with military experience. Most US citizens have no real idea of the experience of war today, nor did they have a handle on WWII. My father served in N. Africa and Italy, but as a mail clerk. I thought it couldn't have been all that bad, but he didn't want to talk about it much. He was just "administrative support", not involved in battles. Mother explained it to us, some years after dad passed away. A little over 60% of his division were casualties by the time Kesselring's defense was finished in Italy. It was more than likely that many companions, some friends since N. Africa, were killed or badly wounded, just as the war was entering into it's last year. The one (and only) story dad told us about "combat" was this one: After one long battle (a day and night affair), his superiors instructed him to take a small group for reconnaissance (he rank was corporal, one step above private). since he could speak a little German, and had a fair understanding when others spoke. Dad joked about his lack of competence with firearms, and his fellow clerks weren't much better, but off to patrol the newly created wasteland, they went. "Generally a mess", was as much detail as he told his kids, regarding what he saw. Then came the part about his "heroic" capture of a buncha German soldiers. He and his fellow paper shufflers were standing about on a cigarette break, all of them gazing (stupidly) in the same direction at the wreckage. Dad hears a tired voice in German: "Excuse me.. We wish to surrender." He turned around to face a battlefield officer with 3 soldiers, looking like they had been dragged thru Hell. The officer had his pistol by the barrel ready to hand it over, but he needed to verify his men were now safe. Surprised that he and his comrades weren't suffering from gunshot wounds at that moment, Dad stuttered out some words to reassure the officer he understood a little Deutsch. The officer immediately relaxed a little bit, what was left of his squad also secured their rifles. Again, the officer stated he was surrendering and wanted to know his men would be treated fairly. "We are finished" (with the war), he said. He practically had to place the butt of his pistol in my dad's hands, which were definitely shaking more than the war-weary officer. The pistol clip still had a few rounds, too. Dad told us that was pretty much it; the Germans gave up their weapons, chatted a little with dad (food, prisoner conditions), and he helped translate for his squad and superiors when he got back to post. He didn't ask what happened to the officer's squad (he was at the equivalent of lieutenant rank), and the Germans didn't volunteer the information. Most were gone, a few survived, and that was it.

                    It didn't occur to my 8-year old self, the missing parts of my dad's 'war story". He was chosen to patrol with other unqualified (for battle) soldiers, because all his qualified peers were either further up the line securing that zone, or they were severely wounded, or they were dead. IOW, part of his squad's duties were to identify (&amp;amp;amp; collect?) body parts if they could be identified and given a proper burial. More likely that was their primary duty, since his battle-experienced peers and medics had already moved thru the area. That was Italy for him. Replacements came in soon after to continue killing people and breaking things, he went back to the humble task of delivering mail, and a few months later the army "prepared" him to go back to civilian life.

                    A couple of years back I took part in a WW II time witnesses project. One interview, with the last Hitler youth Scharfhrer ( squad leader) in a rural town has stuck in my memory. The old gentleman gave a fascinating, because unapolegetic, vivid and colourful first hand account of what it was like to grow up under the Nazis (born in 1928 or 29) and how the Nazis managed to lure the young generation into their arms. Like by very skillfully instrumentalizing young peoples rebelliousness, enthusiasm and curiosity by offering a new societal "dawn" a new, fairer society and ( obviously) equating parents sceptical of the "movement" and trying to prevent their offspring from joining to the "old world" that was "about to die". Uniforms ("they made you someone"), adventure camps for the purpose of teambuilding ( where the political propaganda usually sneaked in through the backdoor) or charity activities were all steps towards that goal.
                    For young people that had never experienced otherwise and didnt have modern means of information growing up in Nazi Germany wasnt a constant nightmare. People lived, loved, worked, partied and died like everywhere. It was a society with clear rules however, many of them unwritten ( it was sometimes safer not to know and not to ask), simple truths ( obviously the Fhrer was a good man, because those that disagreed had the tendency to dissappear), and clear enemies ( like the jewish american bolshevik capitalist plutocrats and all that. Which it was differed sometimes).
                    He also mentioned a phenomenon he called "cissors in your head". "As long as you were alone thoughts were free. With two people you could talk about some things. Probably. As long as there were more than two people in the room it was the weather and football. Because these were the only things that the Gestapo wasnt interested in"
                    And how did that end ? Obviously terribly. The young squad leader, that had battled alleged Communists on the streets of his hometown ( Jews not, for the simple reason that there werent any) and dreamt of beeing a pilot like the Red Baron, was, along with his fellow boys thrown in the final battle for Berlin. At sixteen years he was sent off to fight combat-hardened Russians advancing towards Berlin on the Seelow Heights, which is a line of hills east of the german capital. He saw most of his mates die, before he went temporarily blind due to a shrapnel. The doctor that saved his eyesight offered him a ticket home, he would just have had to pretend blindness or partial blindness ("Son, I want you to survive"). Yet these kids were too convinced of their "mission" given them by the Fhrer, two or three injured boys stole a truck and tried to head back to the front. Where they never arrived, because they encountered a russian unit before that took them POWs, after stating in broken german "We dont shoot Kindergarten".
                    The boys were sent to Murmansk, to the russian polar circle. The job was pretty much impossibly hard : Along with other german POWs they had to dig a port for submarines in the frozen ground, in the arctic cold and obviously malnutritioned.
                    Yet here also their ideological eggshell cracked open. It was nothing strictly speaking spectacular, it was the sight of "babuschkas", russian grannies skinny as skelettons, and gone as fast as spirits, that stopped by the entrance gate of the POW camp to drop food there. These old ladies had every reason under the sun to hate german soldiers shortly after WW II. Russia had suffered unbelievable losses of lifes, the russian people barely managed to feed their own-- yet these grannies brought food to the force labourers, a few potatoes, a loaf of bread, whatever they had.
                    This gesture of humanity was not lost on the boys, because it forced them to call in question the stereotyping that they had grown up with.
                    There were german prisoners that had to stay in Russia for a decade or so. The young Hitler youth boys were repatriated faster for beeing underage (as long as they survived). Our witness and his two or three surviving mates remained in Murmansk for a year, in that he also became the russian camp leaders mascot. Because the young squad leader allegedly reminded him of a younger brother that had been killed in the war ( which led to plenty of awkward situations, since the Russian also called him by his brothers name). But around a year after their capture they were put on a train that they only figured a while later was supposed to take them back to Germany. It dropped them off after a journey of more than a week on a provincial station somewhere in what was to become eastern Germany. To their hometown around 700 km west they marched, because they had no other choice, through a country that seemed pretty much like an apocalyptical wasteland. The cities piles of rubble, railway lines stolen to be turned into building material, rusty tanks and horse skelettons in unharvested fields. In a seemingly abandoned farm they found the entire owner family had hanged themselves for fear of Russians or Americans (that was not clear) and had been hanging for a while. In the ruins of Cologne they witnessed locals hunting and grilling cats and dogs. The wings of a downed american bomber in the heart of a forest once gave them shelter from the rain. The remains of the crew didnt shock the boys anymore.
                    All of them got home, but our witness found only a bomb crater where his parents house used to be. Yet the story still ends on a happy note : Parents and siblings had survived ( and mourned their son and brother for a year or so, since he had been declared dead in the battle on the Seelow heights outside Berlin. They had also recieved a medal for his "sacrifice" that the old man had kept till the present day and presented with a sardonic grin)
                    The last squad leader of the local Hitler youth ran a bookshop for fifty years or so and only talked openly about his war experiences when the far right had a brief resurgence in the early 90s. He believed he HAD to tell his story to young people at that time, in spite of his own trauma making that difficult and thankfully he has done so multiple times since then. Vivid and colourful, unapolegetic for his younger self ( he was just a young guy at an unfortunate time), sometimes shocking, but not without wit and irony as well.
                    There should have been more witnesses like him, and I hope I gave at least an impression in my insufficient English just how good at storytelling he was.


                    ?


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Voland View Post


                      A couple of years back I took part in a WW II time witnesses project. One interview, with the last Hitler youth Scharfhrer ( squad leader) in a rural town has stuck in my memory. The old gentleman gave a fascinating, because unapolegetic, vivid and colourful first hand account of what it was like to grow up under the Nazis (born in 1928 or 29) and how the Nazis managed to lure the young generation into their arms. Like by very skillfully instrumentalizing young peoples rebelliousness, enthusiasm and curiosity by offering a new societal "dawn" a new, fairer society and ( obviously) equating parents sceptical of the "movement" and trying to prevent their offspring from joining to the "old world" that was "about to die". Uniforms ("they made you someone"), adventure camps for the purpose of teambuilding ( where the political propaganda usually sneaked in through the backdoor) or charity activities were all steps towards that goal.
                      For young people that had never experienced otherwise and didnt have modern means of information growing up in Nazi Germany wasnt a constant nightmare. People lived, loved, worked, partied and died like everywhere. It was a society with clear rules however, many of them unwritten ( it was sometimes safer not to know and not to ask), simple truths ( obviously the Fhrer was a good man, because those that disagreed had the tendency to dissappear), and clear enemies ( like the jewish american bolshevik capitalist plutocrats and all that. Which it was differed sometimes).
                      He also mentioned a phenomenon he called "cissors in your head". "As long as you were alone thoughts were free. With two people you could talk about some things. Probably. As long as there were more than two people in the room it was the weather and football. Because these were the only things that the Gestapo wasnt interested in"
                      And how did that end ? Obviously terribly. The young squad leader, that had battled alleged Communists on the streets of his hometown ( Jews not, for the simple reason that there werent any) and dreamt of beeing a pilot like the Red Baron, was, along with his fellow boys thrown in the final battle for Berlin. At sixteen years he was sent off to fight combat-hardened Russians advancing towards Berlin on the Seelow Heights, which is a line of hills east of the german capital. He saw most of his mates die, before he went temporarily blind due to a shrapnel. The doctor that saved his eyesight offered him a ticket home, he would just have had to pretend blindness or partial blindness ("Son, I want you to survive"). Yet these kids were too convinced of their "mission" given them by the Fhrer, two or three injured boys stole a truck and tried to head back to the front. Where they never arrived, because they encountered a russian unit before that took them POWs, after stating in broken german "We dont shoot Kindergarten".
                      The boys were sent to Murmansk, to the russian polar circle. The job was pretty much impossibly hard : Along with other german POWs they had to dig a port for submarines in the frozen ground, in the arctic cold and obviously malnutritioned.
                      Yet here also their ideological eggshell cracked open. It was nothing strictly speaking spectacular, it was the sight of "babuschkas", russian grannies skinny as skelettons, and gone as fast as spirits, that stopped by the entrance gate of the POW camp to drop food there. These old ladies had every reason under the sun to hate german soldiers shortly after WW II. Russia had suffered unbelievable losses of lifes, the russian people barely managed to feed their own-- yet these grannies brought food to the force labourers, a few potatoes, a loaf of bread, whatever they had.
                      This gesture of humanity was not lost on the boys, because it forced them to call in question the stereotyping that they had grown up with.
                      There were german prisoners that had to stay in Russia for a decade or so. The young Hitler youth boys were repatriated faster for beeing underage (as long as they survived). Our witness and his two or three surviving mates remained in Murmansk for a year, in that he also became the russian camp leaders mascot. Because the young squad leader allegedly reminded him of a younger brother that had been killed in the war ( which led to plenty of awkward situations, since the Russian also called him by his brothers name). But around a year after their capture they were put on a train that they only figured a while later was supposed to take them back to Germany. It dropped them off after a journey of more than a week on a provincial station somewhere in what was to become eastern Germany. To their hometown around 700 km west they marched, because they had no other choice, through a country that seemed pretty much like an apocalyptical wasteland. The cities piles of rubble, railway lines stolen to be turned into building material, rusty tanks and horse skelettons in unharvested fields. In a seemingly abandoned farm they found the entire owner family had hanged themselves for fear of Russians or Americans (that was not clear) and had been hanging for a while. In the ruins of Cologne they witnessed locals hunting and grilling cats and dogs. The wings of a downed american bomber in the heart of a forest once gave them shelter from the rain. The remains of the crew didnt shock the boys anymore.
                      All of them got home, but our witness found only a bomb crater where his parents house used to be. Yet the story still ends on a happy note : Parents and siblings had survived ( and mourned their son and brother for a year or so, since he had been declared dead in the battle on the Seelow heights outside Berlin. They had also recieved a medal for his "sacrifice" that the old man had kept till the present day and presented with a sardonic grin)
                      The last squad leader of the local Hitler youth ran a bookshop for fifty years or so and only talked openly about his war experiences when the far right had a brief resurgence in the early 90s. He believed he HAD to tell his story to young people at that time, in spite of his own trauma making that difficult and thankfully he has done so multiple times since then. Vivid and colourful, unapolegetic for his younger self ( he was just a young guy at an unfortunate time), sometimes shocking, but not without wit and irony as well.
                      There should have been more witnesses like him, and I hope I gave at least an impression in my insufficient English just how good at storytelling he was.

                      That's a great account, thanks Voland. I can barely imagine what those young men went through. Concerning the two gentlemen, the officer who surrendered to my father and the kid who survived despite the Hitler Youth: It is a good bet that they both had what we call in the US, a "thousand mile stare". It's the look in their eyes, which isn't focused on features in the room, or the people who are listening to their account. Instead, their eyes are looking back through the hell they went through, strangely calm because they know it was a period that no longer exists; in sum a look that understands a reality that no one else comprehends, unless one also survived that type of horror.

                      ?


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                        That's a great account, thanks Voland. I can barely imagine what those young men went through. Concerning the two gentlemen, the officer who surrendered to my father and the kid who survived despite the Hitler Youth: It is a good bet that they both had what we call in the US, a "thousand mile stare". It's the look in their eyes, which isn't focused on features in the room, or the people who are listening to their account. Instead, their eyes are looking back through the hell they went through, strangely calm because they know it was a period that no longer exists; in sum a look that understands a reality that no one else comprehends, unless one also survived that type of horror.




                        Well, Latroun is a strategic hilltop in central Israel, that overlooks the road from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv and houses a bird observation center plus many, many historic ruins. It was strategically important and fortified already in pre-roman times, its hillfortress was expanded by the medieval Arabs, by the Crusaders, by the Ottomans, under the british mandate and during Israels war for independence it was taken by jordanian troops. The Israelis made several unsucessful attempts to retake it, since obviously the Jordanians could effectively block the road leading to the coast from there ( later the Israelis managed to build an alternative road that was safe which pretty much ended the problem and in 1967 they took it anyway). There is the story that the arab defenders of Latroun were, in spite of their sucessful defence of the place, shocked. Because they said and confirmed later that the israeli battalions trying to storm the place were not only fighting ferociously, but mostly also without regard for their own lifes. They ran into machinegun fire, they tried to climb fortress walls under fire and ( not the least shocking for the Arabs--they included girls).
                        The british trained soldiers of the Royal Jordanian Legion found it difficult to deal with that. What they didnt know : Most of their opponents were Holocaust survivors. That had seen far worse than the prospect of falling in battle. They just werent scared by what would have scared most people without their experiences.

                        As far as I can tell, growing up among many members of the war generation (that were usually not very communicative about these events), the traumatic past may no longer exist, which the traumatized person will be fully aware of, but it sticks to your personality and boils underneath the surface. And sometimes it can boil up triggered even by simple things. In Poland, at a barbecue on the sidelines of a wedding party, I almost spillt my drink when the brides very kind grandad, a retired university professor, all of a sudden informed us that since surviving Auschwitz as a teen, he couldnt eat potatoes anymore (He hadnt informed us about having been in Auschwitz).
                        When a (german) friend of mine married an Israeli she found ( to her great relief) his israeli family very accepting and supportive. But she hadnt anticipated his israeli grannys reaction to them having a gas stove, and worse, by a german producer, in their kitchen...It took her a while to fix that.
                        We had a neighbour that drove tanks in WW II and recieved an "Iron Cross" for the Kamikaze mission of steering a truck out of Stalingrad. His cargo were wounded soldiers that wouldnt have had a chance staying in Stalingrad anyway. He broke though several russian roadblocks under heavy fire and kept going and going, in spite of beeing hit by six bullets himself until he reached the first german lines. And then never got behind a steering wheel again in his life. In spite of reaching his hundreds. He couldnt.
                        My father in law was a baby when he was buried under dust and rubble of his parents house that recieved a bomb hit. And although he doesnt remember anything about his fortunate rescue he cant stand closed rooms. Till the present day.
                        People can (obviously) learn to live with trauma, and for that they will usually need a new purpose in life. The war generation had the experience of a "cut" by the end of hostilities, and the catalyst of building/rebuilding a country and society while also raising families for pushing these issues into the backround. In Germany or in Israel more than elsewhere probably, but still....
                        Those decades of experience in treating traumata are a reason why german as well as israeli psychologists are very active in research as well as in developing modern treatments and therapies and also link with each other.
                        Germanys program to grant shelter and treatment to Yazidi women treated as sex slaves by the so-called Islamic state didnt come out of the blue. It builds on a long experience dating back till WW II :



                        https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/yazidi...gees-1.3923901





                        Under a special program, several hundred women and their families 1,100 people in all were ultimately airlifted over a year for a rare chance at recovery from hellish post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

                        They live in more than 20 secret shelters across the state.

                        German psychologist Jan Ilhan Kizilhan travelled to camps in northern Iraq to choose which victims of torture and rape would have the life-altering opportunity to move to Germany for treatment. 'In Germany, they have security. We can give them orientation and stabilization,' he says. (Nahlah Ayed/CBC)

                        As he's taken on the role of therapist to many of them now, Kizilhan's task has only grown: not just helping them overcome deep trauma but also restoring the women's faith in humanity.

                        "In this case," he explained, "people lost their trust in humanity, and psychotherapy means to give the feeling 'yes, we have some cruel, evil persons, but the world is not all evil.'"

                        .........
                        The women had to meet three criteria:
                        • They had once been held by ISIS.
                        • They suffered psychological and medical consequences.
                        • The state had the know-how to treat them.

                        Part of the state's plan included training psychologists and interpreters. But how can anyone overcome such deep trauma? Are the women treatable?

                        Kizilhan says yes but only if they can leave the camps of northern Iraq behind......



                        https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...-enslaved-isis

                        Last edited by Voland; 2 weeks ago.

                        ?

                        Working...
                        X