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My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

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  • My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

    I've long said that women have no business in the Marine Corps let alone in the types of units being discussed. Yet, I knew this day would come, and our brotherhood will be worse off because of it. During my time in the US Marines I never met a single female who had the physical or mental ability to serve in line units.

    I have to raise a couple points against what Gen. Amos says:

    1. He claims that females in the Infantry Officer School will be held to the same standards as the males. That is all well and good, but it is already tainted by the fact that those female officers are not held to the same standards (physical) when it comes to becoming or being a Marine. I mean, to be fair, shouldn't we allow males who failed the male physical requirements but who pass the female requirements have a shot?

    2. He speaks of testing and evaluation, the collecting of data, as if the Marine Corps really has a choice in all this. I promise you the real results won't come out and only one result will be allowed by our brilliant civilian leadership: it works.

    3. Finally, a question: why? The Marine Corps has never had a problem filling its combat arms branches with willing bodies. When I assisted with recruiting early in my Marine days, the combat arms slots allocated to our recruiting district always filled first, with 03XX (infantry) being the first among them.

    Women slowly advance into Marine combat jobs - CBS News

    (AP) WASHINGTON — There may be some anxiety from male Marines as female officers work their way into infantry and other combat jobs that historically have been open only to men, Gen. James F. Amos, the Marine Corps commandant, said Tuesday.

    Amos said early steps to begin moving women into artillery, tank air defense and combat engineer units have been successful, but the more difficult tests lie ahead.

    "Change doesn't come easy to the United States Marine Corps," Amos told an audience at the National Press Club. "But when it does, when it's rooted, it lasts forever. So I think we'll work our way through it."

    A key challenge will take place next month as female Marine officers attend the grueling infantry officer school at the Marine Corps' Quantico, Va., base as part of an experiment to gauge whether women can handle the course's extreme physical and mental challenges. So far, two women have volunteered to go through the 13-week course, which historically sees attrition rates of 20 percent to 25 percent when only men are participating.

    "I need to get past hyperbole and get past intuition and instincts, and I need to get facts," Amos said, adding that the Marines intend to maintain the same standards for men and women. "If you're going to be infantry officer, you will spend 13 weeks at Quantico going through some very, very difficult training. So that's the standard, the measure of an infantry officer in the Marine Corps."

    Officials, he said, will evaluate the test, collect the data and then he will give his recommendation to Defense Secretary Leon Panetta.

    The Pentagon in February announced that the military was formally opening up thousands of jobs to women in units closer to the front lines to better reflect the realities of modern warfare. Women already are fight on the front lines in Afghanistan, and they did the same in Iraq. The new rules will allow women to perform many of the jobs they already have been doing, but in smaller units that are closer to the fighting and were once considered too dangerous.

    To say women are a minority in the Marine Corps is an understatement; of the roughly 200,000 Marines, 13,700 are female. So the integration will be slow and in small numbers.

    By mid-October, 45 women Marine officers and staff non-commissioned officers will join various artillery, tank and combat engineer battalions across the country. And Amos said he met with the top leaders of the 19 battalions that could get female Marines and told them that they need to do this the right way and establish the proper command climate to give the women the opportunity to succeed.

    He added that the Marine Corps also has sent out a survey to service members to collect their views on allowing women in the infantry. And officials are also setting up a series of physical tests to compare the strength of male and female officers and enlisted Marines.

    A 1994 Pentagon policy prohibits women from being assigned to ground combat units below the brigade level. A brigade is roughly 3,500 troops split into several battalions of about 800 soldiers each. Historically, brigades were based farther from the front lines, and they often include top command and support staff, while battalions usually are in closer contact with the enemy.

    Historically, women could not be formally assigned to those battalion-level jobs. But in the past decade the necessities of war propelled women into jobs such as medics, military police and intelligence officers, and they were sometimes attached — but not formally assigned — to battalions.

    So while a woman couldn't be assigned as an infantryman in a battalion going out on patrol, she could fly the helicopter supporting the unit or move in to provide medical aid if troops were injured. The new rules will formally allow women to work in those jobs at the battalion level.

    The new rules don't open up the Navy SEALs or the Army Delta Force to women, but some defense officials have said the military may eventually consider that.

    In other comments, Amos defended the administrative punishments doled out to three Marines on Monday for their participation in a video that showed them urinating on the corpses of Taliban insurgents.

    While there were no criminal charges, he said the discipline "was not a slap on the wrist." And he said additional Marines will also "be held accountable" for the incident, which triggered outrage among Afghans when it was revealed on YouTube earlier this year.

    The actual administrative punishments have not been made public, but could include demotions, extra duty, forfeiture of pay or a letter in their file. The punishments also could stall any future advancement and end their military careers.

  • #2
    Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

    Turn the clock back 70 something years and replace "women" with "Blacks" and your statement was found false as it is now.

    There goes the neighborhood......

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

      Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
      Turn the clock back 70 something years and replace "women" with "Blacks" and your statement was found false as it is now.

      There goes the neighborhood......
      Not even close. Apples and oranges.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

        There are RARE exceptions.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

          Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
          Turn the clock back 70 something years and replace "women" with "Blacks" and your statement was found false as it is now.

          There goes the neighborhood......
          Men and women are physically different. Lives are on the line and any "weak" link effects the performance of the whole. If the woman is not an exceptional physical specimen, she has no business "replacing a man". That said a woman can kill effectively and I have no problem with them being trained to do so. My only objection being where it would jeopardize the effectiveness of the whole unit.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

            Well, in Starship Troopers, they had women marines. Charlie Sheen's exwife played one. She looked tough enough for me!

            But IMO, a woman should not be allowed to sink to such a low level as men and become soldiers who are not used to defend the nation, but for other killing. Like every war we have been in since WW2. Afganistan might be an exception if we had went in, killed em, and got the hell out! Instead we use it as a training camp for the next unnecessary war.
            America has to be at war or we just ain't happy campers.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

              If you put men and women together in any situation, you have endangered both. I worked at McDonalds when in college, it was all male employees. Along came NOW and the ERA and Mc Donalds was required to hire women. The entire professional atmosphere went to hell. It wasn't just the fact that there were women there. It was the men trying to impress or protect the women. It doesn't work.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

                Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                If you put men and women together in any situation, you have endangered both. I worked at McDonalds when in college, it was all male employees. Along came NOW and the ERA and Mc Donalds was required to hire women. The entire professional atmosphere went to hell. It wasn't just the fact that there were women there. It was the men trying to impress or protect the women. It doesn't work.
                Sometimes Dan ... I wonder ... are you like 110 years old? You have some really old time beliefs. Of course if the girls were to bend over at the fry station ... their dress might lift up revealing ... their ankles. That could be a dangerous distraction.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

                  Originally posted by ThorHammer View Post
                  Not even close. Apples and oranges.
                  Not apples and oranges, blacks and women. (Also gays and straight)

                  You are so in love with a Corps that most likely never existed outside a John Wayne movie that you cannot see how prejudicial your statements are.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

                    Originally posted by RDK View Post
                    Not apples and oranges, blacks and women. (Also gays and straight)

                    You are so in love with a Corps that most likely never existed outside a John Wayne movie that you cannot see how prejudicial your statements are.
                    You're smarter than this, RDK. Black is a race. Female is a sex. Apples and oranges.

                    The Corps I love is the Corps I lived. I wouldn't expect you to know or understand anything about that because you're not one of us. You're an outsider looking in.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

                      Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
                      There are RARE exceptions.
                      Extremely rare and, IMO, not worth the added costs. As I have said, I never met a single female while in the Marines who would have lasted in a line unit.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #12
                        Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

                        Originally posted by ThorHammer View Post
                        Extremely rare and, IMO, not worth the added costs. As I have said, I never met a single female while in the Marines who would have lasted in a line unit.
                        Putting men and women together in an office situation causes problems. Putting them together in a combat situation is a disaster.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #13
                          Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

                          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                          Putting men and women together in an office situation causes problems. Putting them together in a combat situation is a disaster.
                          Not sure I agree when it comes to an office situation. I haven't experienced any problems when working with women.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #14
                            Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

                            Originally posted by ThorHammer View Post
                            Not sure I agree when it comes to an office situation. I haven't experienced any problems when working with women.
                            You have never seen office affairs go bad or all the catty remarks between employees?

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #15
                              Re: My beloved Corps is dying a slow death....

                              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                              You have never seen office affairs go bad or all the catty remarks between employees?
                              I can honestly say I never have.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?

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