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Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

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  • Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

    I was starting to post this in response to something somebody said in here, but instead I decided to post it in the general forum instead. And I am wondering how many other military-veterans agree with me..

    **********

    This should not come as a surprise to many, but parts of this should be explained once again.

    I largely have a pretty negative view of Civilians, and largely deal with them with contempt.

    Now understand, this is largely aimed at those civilians that deal with people like me with contempt. Military, especially career military.

    I see over and over some civilian (Right or Left Wing) pop in and give some really stupid comment, and all I can do is scratch my head and wonder at the stupidity that makes people actually think that way.

    I mean really, do you honestly think I am going to accept orders to storm into your house and take away all of your guns?

    I mean, do you honestly think that my pay is stealing food away from some starving child in the ghetto?

    Yes, I classify myself as "Conservative". Mostly because I believe in Conserving the status-quo, and that change should be made gradually, not in sudden jumps and leaps that cause instability. I believe strongly in compromise, and absolutely hate the idea of either party having either all control of the Government (Executive and both of the Legislative branches), or even more importantly a "Super-Majority" in any branch of Federal or State government.

    I consider myself a "Conservative", and also a "Moderate". I am a believer in compromise, and wish that both parties learned how to use it more. But even more importantly, I am so fracking sick and tired of one party demonizing the other.

    I am a military person through and through. I have served off and on since the first Reagan Administration. I have served under 5 Presidents now, and do what is ordered of me. And as of yet, I have never recieved an order that I see as in violation of the law, or the Constitution. I may not have liked all of them, but they have been lawfull, and have been carried out to the best of my ability.

    I have been invoted into the "Political Threads" in here many times, and have largely dipped my toe in, then left feeling that I should disinfect my toe from the filth that covered it from that dip. I am not a "political animal", and talking to me about "indoctrination" and "philosophies" largely leaves me with the feeling that I need to vomit. I could not care less about "Political Parties" or "Manifestos". My main influences are History (because the past often repeats itself), and what is a "Clear and Present Danger".

    To be blunt, I really could not care less. Love me, Hate me, Dispise me, it really does not matter to me. I do my job, and try to remind myself that I do so in the hopes that my children will never have to do so themselves. People have called me a fascist and a murderer. They have spit on me. Then again, they have thanked me for my service, and shaken my hand and even tried to pay for my meals and drinks. I do not want any of that, good or bad. I do not do what I do for personal gain, but because I honestly get personal pleasure from serving my Country, and the People of my Country.

    And in also serving the People of other countries. It makes me happiest when some citizen of the country I am in at the time comes up and thanks me for being there for them. I get more personal enjoyment from that then from 1,000+ Americans telling me the same thing. Yea, some Californian tells me I am a worthless piece of filth because I am in uniform while I put gas in my truck on my way home from a long week of work away from my wife. I could not care less, because I still remember that Kuwaiti citizen thanking me, and that means more to me then what that neo-hippie with his mind full of 420 would ever mean.

    Yea, I admit, I am writing this late on a Saturday night. I have probably had a bit more to drink then I should. Then again, for the last 2 months I have seen my wife an average of 2 days a week, and been working mostly from 6am until 8pm. And no, I do not get overtime. I am on a salary, and for living in Northern California it is rediculously low. But I do not do what I do for money.

    Frack, I left a company as a Senior Computer Technician in 2007 to go back into the military (at the age of 42). I have MCSE, Novell Certs, A+, and am on the tail end of A+, N+, CCNA, CCNE, and live in the Bay Area. Can anybody say "$60k+"?

    But I would turn all that away in a heartbeat to be back on active duty, in my sub-$30k military job.

    I could not care less about praise. I could not care less about shiny things on my uniform. I have always wanted to, and still do serve my country to the best of my ability. And also any country that my own offers it's protection over.

    My wife of over 25 years has put up with a lot of deployments, a lot of absences. And she sometimes even reads over my shoulder in here. And trust me, you do not want to read what she says. Ironically, in many ways she is even more militant then I am, and she is a "Democrat".

    To wrap this rambling post up, my basic attituse if fuck Left Wing. Fuck Right Wing. Fuck all of your mindless political nonsense. If you want to talk military, I can talk military. If you want to talk about why Missile A is better then Missile B, or why Aircraft C can be taken down by Missile C, I can do that all day long.

    If you want to interject why "Mister XXXXXX YYYYYY said that blah blah blah blah", I really could not give a flying fuck. Talk to me about Socialism or Fasciam or Communism, or talk about the US President (ANY US President) in a less then respectfull manner, and I will see you as nothing but a fucking political hack and ignore 90% of what you say. Be it President Reagan, President Clinton, President Bush, or President Barack Hussin Obama. I may, or may not like any, none, or all of the Presidents I just listed. But they are all (or were) my Commander in Chief, and I give them all the proper respect their office demands.

    Why?

    If you do not get it by bnow, you are absolutely fucking hopeless.

    Because I could not care less about politics!

  • #2
    Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

    I have to confess a certain confusion here.

    If, as you say, you could not care less about politics, why would you be on a political forum? I, for instance, could not care less about ballet. I don't hang out on ballet forums (I am assuming such a thing exists), ranting about how I could care less about ballet....

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

      Originally posted by MattInFla View Post
      I have to confess a certain confusion here.

      If, as you say, you could not care less about politics, why would you be on a political forum? I, for instance, could not care less about ballet. I don't hang out on ballet forums (I am assuming such a thing exists), ranting about how I could care less about ballet....
      If you look at where I post, 99% of the time it is here in the Military section. You generally do not see me in the "political" areas of the board.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

        You know I was wondering where this was going to go, and I have to say I am pleasantly surprised.

        The hyperbole that passes for much of what is political dialogue in this country is just mind boggling stupid.

        Slippery slope arguments. Confirmation bias. The never ending Us vs Them mentality. The constant whining. It gets so old.


        This civillian tips his hat to you.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

          Originally posted by MeadHallPirate
          i understand that if the 2nd amendment were o'erturned in a constitutional convention, ye would disobey a direct order by yer C&C to gather up the nation's guns. thats fine. lemme asks ye, if ye were ordered to round up citizens and place'm in internment camps, based on thar ethnicity, would ye do it?
          Actually, for the first to happen, a lot of changes would have to be made.

          First of all, I can't see either a new Convention or an ammendment abolishing the 2nd Ammendment ever happening. No way the 2/3 clause could ever happen.

          Secondly, you will have to rewrite huge sections of the law to abolish Posse comitatus. Because the military is prohibited from acting inside the US except under very specific situations.

          For the last, pretty much the entire Constitution would have to be scrapped.

          In the last case, if the order was given under our Constitution I would be bound to fight against it as an unlawfull order. This violates so many parts of the Constitution that it is not even funny. As far as I am aware this has only happened once in our history (the Internment of Japanese, German and Italians), and that was during a time of war when even the Supreme Court has stated that parts of the Constitution become restricted for the duration.

          And to continue in legal talk, the Supreme Court did throw out most of the internment, but not all of it. In Korematsu v. United States the Supreme Court said that it was illegal to detain loyal citizens without due process. So technically, it would be Constitutional to round up and detain residents and other Foreign Nationals. But does anybody see that even remotely happening in the 21st Century?

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

            I mean, do you honestly think that my pay is stealing food away from some starving child in the ghetto?
            Uhm, yes?

            Would you argue that the trillions the US spends on wars and security are not to the detriment of the rest of society?

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

              Originally posted by Mushroom View Post
              So technically, it would be Constitutional to round up and detain residents and other Foreign Nationals. But does anybody see that even remotely happening in the 21st Century?
              I can and have seen it happening with loyal citizens in the 21st century. The victims of Katrina who didn't get out early weren't exactly sent to internment camps, but they were held in a few areas and denied essential services. Granted, if you ignore the stories of turning away Walmart trucks and the like bringing food and water, I'm not sure I can think of a better way to do it, but it happened.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

                Originally posted by MeadHallPirate
                oh, i agree. thats why i even stipulated that the 2nd amendment would have to be o'erturned in a constitutional convention, meanin' it would have lawfully become the new law 'o the land.

                ye mentioned that under no condition would ye enforce the constitution if it was amended, basically.
                I never said that at all. I said that such an ammendment would never happen, so it is a moot point. If an order was legal and followed the Constitution I would be obligated to follow it, if I like it or not.

                But once again, this starts to diverge into the kind of political nonsense I try to avoid.

                But what if the Constitution was ammended to retur blacks to slavery?

                And yea, I was asked something like that once. In short,if that happened I would probably have been smart enough to leave the military and emmigrate to another country years prior, or go to ground and start to work in a resistance movement because our Government had been taken over by eneies of the state and suborned for their own purposes.

                And yes, I am actually one of those that would fight against any kind of "Constitutional Convention" (as opposed to an amendment). I know the power of such a Convention, and there is nothing stopping them from completely dissolving the Constitution and instituting a Dictatorship or some other form of Government.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

                  Originally posted by MeadHallPirate
                  my point is only that it happened, matey. its not like it occurred 1,000 years ago or somethin'.
                  And yes it did happen. However, since then the Supreme Court has answered the Cositutionlity of such an action and declared it Unconstitutional.

                  The first time anything is done by the Government, t is often allowed until the Supreme Court weghs in on to the legality of it, it can't be tried again. Notice this is why I cited the specifc case involved in this situation, so if such an action was tried again it would immediately be quashed.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

                    Originally posted by erikvv View Post
                    Uhm, yes?

                    Would you argue that the trillions the US spends on wars and security are not to the detriment of the rest of society?
                    Uhhh, yea.

                    Please go back to your readings of William Bryan (or maybe Joseph Goebbels).

                    And BTW, it is not "trillions", it is not even "trillion". And it is not your country, so why do you even care? I certainly do not go around trying to tell the Netherlands how it should be spending it's money. So why should somebody from there be telling us how to spend ours?

                    And the last time I looked, Netherlands was a part of NATO, and has also participated in the same conflicts, including former Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. And how much of the US defense budget has been spent over the years specifically for the purpose of NATO, which is to keep Europe safe from invasion, not the United States itself.

                    What was that quote, something about the mote in your own eye?

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

                      Originally posted by Mushroom View Post
                      Uhhh, yea.
                      I don't know your position on governement spending, but it's often argued here that tax 'n spend by the governement discourages work and creates dependencies. Defense is not exempt from this argument. Every dollar spent on defense eventually is a dollar out of the paycheck of hard-working Americans. This isn't to say that it should be eliminated, but it does mean we should consider carefully how much we value it. At 4,7% of GDP and 40% of the world it's overvalued right now in the U.S.


                      Please go back to your readings of William Bryan (or maybe Joseph Goebbels).
                      High military spending has not shown to be a deterrent for the U.S. to go to war. And I'll let you know my position on WW3 when it actually happens.


                      And BTW, it is not "trillions", it is not even "trillion".
                      Its $700 billion per year for the DoD alone, excluding pensions. That easily adds up to trillions over a few years.


                      And it is not your country, so why do you even care?
                      I care for the people in Fairfield as much as the people in Amsterdam or Iran. On seconds thought, I might care more about them than Amsterdammers.


                      I certainly do not go around trying to tell the Netherlands how it should be spending it's money.
                      I would be interested. So don't hold yourself back . I'm not stopping in any case. Good allies deserver to hear their opinions of eachother.


                      So why should somebody from there be telling us how to spend ours?
                      There's free speech. Also there's that "promote the general Welfare" part which needs to be pulled up now from memory and then.


                      And the last time I looked, Netherlands was a part of NATO, and has also participated in the same conflicts, including former Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. And how much of the US defense budget has been spent over the years specifically for the purpose of NATO, which is to keep Europe safe from invasion, not the United States itself.
                      I strongly opposed the the war in/against Iraq and Dutch involvement in it. In fact it was the reason for me joining this forum.

                      And I don't recall that we were ever at risk of invasion by any of the nations you mention.


                      What was that quote, something about the mote in your own eye?
                      Last edited by erikvv; 02-27-2013, 02:09 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

                        The founding fathers had a pretty low view of standing armies, they did not want one for this country.
                        They saw them as something that should be raised in an emergency, but quickly disbanded once the emergency had passed.
                        Notice they specifically limited spending appropriations for an army to two years, no such restriction on a navy.
                        The FF saw a large military as a huge threat to our freedom, and they were right, the military with it's huge demands for tax money has lowered the standard of living.
                        After WWII, the US had the highest standard of living on the planet, only Switzerland was close, to bring the US up to the Swiss standard of living now would take 50 trillion dollars in spending, coincidentally, if the US had spent the same % of GDP on the military as Switzerland, they would have left 50 trillion in the economy.


                        To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

                        To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

                        To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

                        To provide and maintain a Navy;

                        To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

                        To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

                        To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

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                        • #13
                          Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

                          Originally posted by erikvv View Post
                          Uhm, yes?

                          Would you argue that the trillions the US spends on wars and security are not to the detriment of the rest of society?
                          This is utter nonsense. Military salaries are not 'stealing food' off the tables of anybody; take that particular problem up with your Congressmen and Senators, followed by your state and local pols who administer the distribution of welfare benefits, under the decrepit and utterly corrupt 'States Rights' hoax. The salaries of military personnel have taken the same hits as most other working peoples' salaries, and should easily be over double what it is now if it were adjusted for real inflation. They also hand out the military contracts that private companies pad with all sorts of items, and probably could do the same jobs and services for about a third of what they get from their buddies in government.

                          Other government programs that 'steal food' off of kids' tables:

                          AIDS research, interstate highways, medical research, socially promoted morons warming seats in universities and high schools which they aren't qualified to fill, bridges to nowhere in various states, 'arts' grants by various government entities, ,Art' majors in general, as a matter of fact, stupid hippie wannabees of all sorts, generating all kinds of silly lawsuits, money governments spend on ludicrous 'Gay Marriage' referendums, Court time spent on such worthless and unnecessary cases as said 'Gay Marriage' referendums, money spent on I Pods, for no really necessary reason other than 'It's New!', iceberg lettuce eats up around $4 billion a year, while having hardly any nutritional value to speak of, computer games of all sorts, mp3's of all sorts, etc., etc. All of these and much much more are subsidized by the U.S. and state govts. at all levels.

                          There are lots of stuff stealing food off of kids' tables, so start with those; military salaries are in the toilet relative to the hours and work military personnel do, whether on front lines or support.


                          A good OP, which touches on some important issues, and pretty much fits with most vets I know, like my entire family and most of my friends.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

                            Originally posted by goober View Post
                            The founding fathers had a pretty low view of standing armies, they did not want one for this country.
                            They saw them as something that should be raised in an emergency, but quickly disbanded once the emergency had passed.
                            Notice they specifically limited spending appropriations for an army to two years, no such restriction on a navy.
                            The FF saw a large military as a huge threat to our freedom, and they were right, the military with it's huge demands for tax money has lowered the standard of living.
                            After WWII, the US had the highest standard of living on the planet, only Switzerland was close, to bring the US up to the Swiss standard of living now would take 50 trillion dollars in spending, coincidentally, if the US had spent the same % of GDP on the military as Switzerland, they would have left 50 trillion in the economy.
                            Most of this line of argument and the silly pretense of 'American Neutrality' went out with the Jay Treaty, when both France and England handed Jay his ass on a platter, and as Roosevelt understood modern technology made neutrality even more ludicrous as a policy; see German u-boats, the Zimmerman Telegram, etc., etc., and well, the history of the 20th Century for many blatantly obvious reasons it's never been a viable policy. Even the Monroe Doctrine was enforced by the British Navy; the policy suited them.

                            Thomas Jefferson himself launched our first war in 1803 or so, and also presided over the country's first military dictatorship in his second term as President, so citing the 'Founding Fathers' as an appeal to higher authority of some sort is an exercise in hubris and lying by omission, not to mention numerous other activities they indulged in that in no way fit the fantasies of selective historical 'memories' on one or another policies that were promptly ignored whenever they found the Constitution inconvenient for their own purposes.

                            There is a vast gap between the 'Founding Fathers' rhetoric and quaint little parlor discussions of philosophy and their actual day to day practices, both political and private. Just because the letters and writings Jefferson and/or his family didn't burn are filled with all kinds of sophistry and the like in no way means he actually believed any of it nor practiced it in office. All of that was merely their form of entertainment in the eras before TV and radio, a game of no importance other than personal amusements when it was too cold or boring to go hunting or whoring.

                            The very first people to get tossed under the bus after the 'Revolution' was over were people like Thomas Paine and James Otis, and it wasn't 'oversight' or 'accidental' they became superfluous after they were no longer needed as propagandists. The second group was war veterans.

                            Switzerland never liberated anybody from anything, either, so who cares what their 'budgets' are? They built an economy on cheese, watches, and money laundering services for criminals and murderers, and still do. Their 'neutrality' has zero to do with any grand 'Principles', just personal gain. Same goes for Sweden, the Netherlands, and all other 'neutrals'. Despite all the hubris and spitball tossing the U.S. still feeds a hell of lot more children than all of the 'neutrals' out together, so who cares whether they support a war or not? They contribute nothing to global peace, and certainly contribute nothing to alleviating poverty or any other global problems, despite all their faux moralizing over the evil and corruption of the U.S.
                            Last edited by Georgist; 02-28-2013, 06:48 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Why I hate Civilians - A military-members Manifesto

                              Originally posted by Georgist View Post
                              This is utter nonsense. Military salaries are not 'stealing food' off the tables of anybody; take that particular problem up with your Congressmen and Senators, followed by your state and local pols who administer the distribution of welfare benefits, under the decrepit and utterly corrupt 'States Rights' hoax. The salaries of military personnel have taken the same hits as most other working peoples' salaries, and should easily be over double what it is now if it were adjusted for real inflation. They also hand out the military contracts that private companies pad with all sorts of items, and probably could do the same jobs and services for about a third of what they get from their buddies in government.

                              Other government programs that 'steal food' off of kids' tables:

                              AIDS research, interstate highways, medical research, socially promoted morons warming seats in universities and high schools which they aren't qualified to fill, bridges to nowhere in various states, 'arts' grants by various government entities, ,Art' majors in general, as a matter of fact, stupid hippie wannabees of all sorts, generating all kinds of silly lawsuits, money governments spend on ludicrous 'Gay Marriage' referendums, Court time spent on such worthless and unnecessary cases as said 'Gay Marriage' referendums, money spent on I Pods, for no really necessary reason other than 'It's New!', iceberg lettuce eats up around $4 billion a year, while having hardly any nutritional value to speak of, computer games of all sorts, mp3's of all sorts, etc., etc. All of these and much much more are subsidized by the U.S. and state govts. at all levels.
                              You are right all spending should be judged by it usefullness. I never argued otherwise. But defense, at 18,6% of the federal budget, is very much low hanging fruit compared to many of the other programs. Art, social sciences, referenda and subsidies for lettuce(?) are negligable compared to it.

                              However, you can't argue that wellfare and military contracts hurt the people/economy but the rest of the defense budget doesn't. A dollar can only be spent once.

                              There are lots of stuff stealing food off of kids' tables, so start with those; military salaries are in the toilet relative to the hours and work military personnel do, whether on front lines or support.
                              Sure salaries may not be the biggest direct expenditures on defense (couldnt find any numbers but I'd estimate 25%). But if you have the personnel, you also need the planes, tanks, ships, and a gigantic global infrastructure to make them effective. If mancount was all that mattered North Korea would be the top dog.



                              In the end it is about what value you add to the economy. To use an analogy: we can let the governement spend more on chairs, but when every house has a dozen of them, it's no longer productive to add more chairs: they do not improve the standard of living any more. In fact the they use up production which could be put to better use in other areas. Overspending on wars and defense is like that.
                              Last edited by erikvv; 02-28-2013, 07:08 AM.

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