Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules - You must read(Updated!)

DISCLAIMER

You agree to NOT use this site or its affiliated sites, services you may have access to as a result of being a member here (subscriber or otherwise), to post items (images, textual material, etc.) that are pornographic in nature, illegal in the United States and/or the country you reside in, support or encourage illegal activities (e.g., terrorism), advertise for your own personal profit, or send unsolicited messages (i.e. SPAM) to members or non-members.

AND

You agree that if any clause or component of this document is found to not be legally binding in a court of law of proper jurisdiction then the remainder of this document shall remain fully binding and in full force.

AND

You agree to NOT hold Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (makers of the forum software), uspoliticsonline.com, sites affiliated with uspoliticsonline.com, its administrators, its moderators, others associated with its operation, and its owners liable for any and all of the following (in whole or in part):
Personal insults/attacks by other members.
The content posted by other members, whether directed at you personally or a label/classification you associate with. This includes remarks you consider to be libelous or slanderous in any way.
Any financial or time loss due to your participation here or as a result of something you read at this site, including posts/PMs by other members and feature(s)/software available at the domain uspoliticsonline.com.
The dissemination of any personal information about you as a result of either your negligence (e.g. staying logged into a computer that others have access to) or willingness to post such information on a public and or private forum, private message or chat box. This includes using your real name or other details that could allow other members and/or the general public to determine your true identity. You are prohibited from using your real name on these forums, either as your username or in posts / PMs you write.

FORUM RULES, IN ADDITION TO THE DISCLAIMER

1. These rules apply to all sections of USPOL, including public and private forums, blogs, and visitor messages.

2. You cannot attack and/or personally insult someone. You cannot bait other forum members; this includes referring to posters by derogatory terms. Please, remain courteous and respectful to all forum members at all times. You agree to take responsibility for reporting such posts when you come across them. Please, use the ignore feature if need be. Any member who intentionally and continually posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response, or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, may be regarded as a “troll” by staff, and have their account suspended or banned.

3. You cannot harass (sexually or otherwise) other members. This includes malicious, slanderous, or defamatory comments. If you are not sure if something you write is inappropriate or not then don't say it. Err on the side of caution.

4. Copying and Pasting Articles, and Starting New Threads. You cannot simply cut and paste in posts or when starting threads. You MUST provide the identifying information (source, author, date, and URL). You must also offer some original thoughts along with the cut and paste. You may copy and paste an excerpt or series of excerpts from the article. Excerpts really shouldn’t be more then a paragraph or two. Furthermore, if you use images or other copyrighted material in your posts or signature you must have permission of the copyright holder unless you know for a fact that the image is in the public domain. In addition:
a. It must include the identifying information; e.g., where available, the author, the publication, the date, the URL.
b. The member must offer some context, including: How did you hear of this article? What is your opinion? Why is it important to you? Why should it be important to forum readers? The more context you provide, the more you assist others in gauging the excerpted information's significance.
c. You may copy and paste an excerpt or series of excerpts, not the whole thing or even the majority of the whole thing to encourage people to read the entire article.

A violation of any of the above will result in the deletion or closing of the post or thread and could earn you a warning or suspension. If you have any questions concering any of the above please PM a moderator and we will be happy to clarify.

5. You cannot post the same thing in multiple forums. You must not open similar threads about the same or a similar topic. You cannot spam the board or send unsolicited messages to members via PM, email or any other means.

6. Do not post off-topic. You cannot derail a thread with off topic posts.

7. You cannot shout in posts. This includes posting in all CAPS, bold, lIkE tHiS, and extra large font. Posts should also be one color, although you may use an additional color for highlighting ideas you wish to address.

8. You may not alter quotes in a way that misrepresents what was originally said.

9. Multiple accounts are not allowed. If you are found to have more than one account all accounts will be permanently terminated.

10. You cannot have a user name, avatar, signature, or post images that are deliberately offensive. That includes the display of overly explicit or graphic images that may not be suitable for minors.

11. Signatures can not have more than three lines of text, with a font size no larger than "4", and no more than two font colors. Images in signatures cannot be any larger than 800 pixels wide x 200 pixels tall. Animated images are not allowed.

12. You are prohibited from taking any action to disturb the use of the services by others, distribute material that contains viruses, spyware or any other malicious code or harmful programs. This includes interfering with the working of the network, attempts to gain unauthorized access to a service or other computer systems that are part of the site or any other site, by use of the available services.

13. Discussion of moderation actions in public and/or private forums is not permitted. Moderation actions include warnings, suspensions and the editing or deletion of posts. If a member has a concern about a moderation action, he or she is invited to address it with the board staff via Private Message. This rule exists to protect the privacy of all posters with regards to disciplinary action. The moderator team will never publicly discuss the warnings/suspensions of any posters, and we ask that you return the favor, whether about yourself or another poster. Posting about moderation actions in the public forums constitutes a violation. You are free to discuss a moderation action via Private Message with the moderator involved, but you may not harass or abuse the moderators (as already specified in the forum rules). In practical terms, this means that once a moderator tells you his or her decision is final, no further PMs about that moderation action are permitted. If you have a concern about a moderation action, you are free to appeal to a Forum Administrator via Private Message. You may only discuss moderator activities or discussion of moderation with staff member if you chose to private message and are not under any circumstances allowed to use the PM function to forward or promote moderator discussion in regards to specific forum action, amongst other regular members. Administrators do reserve the right to read said PMs and may do so ; if that results in discovery of messaging between posters of such moderator discussion then it will lead to the same violation being received for discussing said moderator actions on the forum. If you receive a message to the effect of having been given moderator information, please report it to a member of staff. Engaging back in that discussion with the original violator will earn you just as stiff a sanction.

14. Do not ignore moderators or administrators. Do not repost something a moderator or administrator has deleted. You cannot have moderators or administrators on your ignore list.

15. Only post in English. Short passages in foreign languages may be acceptable if its use seems helpful for the ongoing discussion and when there is no indication of a potential violation of the forum rules. Always provide a translation into English in such cases. In case of doubt, the incident will be regarded as a violation, no matter of the actual meaning of the foreign language text.

16. The use of words/comments etc. written by other posters, without approval of the poster in your personal signature is not allowed nor are references, by name, to other posters allowed.

17. Please pay attention to announcements by Forum staff that will be found in the "Welcome! / News & Announcements" forum from time to time.

18. Use of "liar", "lies", "lying", etc. Accusing someone of being a "liar" or similar accusations towards other posters will generally be regarded as implying an insult and therewith as a violation of the forum rules. "I question the validity of your statement because...", "That's not the truth" or "you are wrong about that" are sufficient for any decent discussion if you want to disagree with somebody's assertions.

19. Thread opening restriction for new members. In order to control SPAM, new members must have moderator approval to start their own threads.

20. Thread titles must relate to the discussion within. Do not make misleading titles, or titles such as "Guess what..." or "You'll never believe this...". Members need to be able to identify the general gist of the thread via the title. Profanity in thread titles is not permitted.

21. Forum members are instructed to use forum tools and abilities for their intended purposes and no other. If members identify a forum glitch or weakness of any kind that allows you to see or do something you know you shouldn't, please report it. Being aware of any unintended access to the Forum and failing to take appropriate steps to notify staff of said access issues, will create a presumption of seeking to take advantage of the issue, will result in either account suspension, or banishment.

22. Any link to a site that contains graphic content, must contain a warning describing what a person might reasonably expect to view if they click on said link. No graphic pictures are to be posted on the Forum.

23. Threats or advocations of violence toward a public figure, or member of the Forum, will not be tolerated. Conversation about revolution or the like is not prohibited by this rule; directly calling for violence is, eg “It's time to kill every <redacted> that voted for the bill,” is not permitted.

24. Accounts with no posts will be deleted after 30 days. Inactive accounts with low post histories may be deleted after one year.

25. Private forums are something offered to members that decide to contribute directly to this site via donations. These donations help immensely in keeping this site up and running. Private forums are designed to allow the contributing member discuss whatever he/she wants to and to have the power to direct that discussion in whatever way he/she chose. They were not designed nor are they intended for simply talking trash about members that don't have access to the forum. While the targeted members cannot see the forum or the comments, it creates a negative atmosphere that really isn't necessary. If you want to totally rip apart ideas, ideologies, political parties, etc. that is fine. We simply ask that you don't use the private forums as a means to attack other members that aren't privy to such comments. It is difficult enough to have a political discussion forum because the discussion of politics is inherently heated as people are so passionate about their beliefs...the ones that take the time to come to such a site in the first place at least. The idea of private forums is so people of similar political persuasions can discuss whatever they want without fear of being attacked. Nonetheless, we hope that a certain level of maturity would foster itself within such an arena and not simply lend itself to a bashing forum.

Private Forums are governed by all of the above Forum rules. In addition:
  • Private forums that essentially become abandoned homes will be subject to deletion, donation or reorganization. Just like elsewhere in life, clubs sometimes lose their vitality and purpose for a myriad of reasons. If it becomes clear that a private forum has clearly lost its vitality and nobody is going to really use it anymore, owners are advised to consider whether to reuse the forum for something new and productive rather than let them linger or notify the Administration that the forum should be rearranged for other purposes, closed, merged with other compatible private forums, donated to others for new purposes, etc. Do not be concerned that your forum must be a membership and post count race with others to avoid falling under this policy; the question is whether your forum has actual vitality instead of being 'brain dead.'
  • Additionally, private forums may only be owned by subscribed members in the Platinum or Diamond categories.
  • Should the owner of a private forum be banned, quit USPOL or otherwise abandon the forum the PF will be transferred to another owner or closed.
  • Propriety of private forums. Administration staff will determine the desirability of a proposed private forum and enact any conditions upon it to ensure its purpose is productive.
  • Any and all instances of sharing accounts by allowing someone else to log in under their own account so they can see into private forums for which they are otherwise not permitted to access, will be deemed violation of the double account rule and all caught doing so will be permanently banned.
  • Relaying private forum posts and information to other posters who are not members of the particular private forum for any negative or destructive purpose (eg mean-spirited gossip, fueling interpersonal disputes, etc), is not permitted, and will constitute a violation of the Forum rules.
  • For purposes of monitoring USPOL Terms of Service Administrative staff (not Moderators) will have access to Private Forums.
  • All Private Forums must have at least one active Administrator as a member for purposes of handling issues which cannot be addressed through moderation permissions.
  • Discussion of moderation activities is prohibited on the open site and is likewise prohibited in Private Forums.

26. The administrators and moderators reserve the right to edit and/or delete a post,and/or close a thread, and/or delete a thread at any time if of the opinion that the post is too obscene, inappropriate, or the discussion has run its course.

27. 'Back seat moderating' is not allowed. If you take issue with another poster's contribution to the forum, you're welcome to report any posts you think are out of line, but you should not bring it up publicly within the forum.

28. Images in posts (whether embedded or hot linked) must be reasonable in size. 800x800 should be considered a good rule of thumb. Excessively large images make it difficult for users on mobile devices to load pages. If necessary please simply link to very large images using the URL tags. In addition, the following images are not permitted (including, but not limited to pages with images or videos containing):
  • Strategically covered nudity
  • Sheer or see-through clothing
  • Lewd or provocative poses
  • Close-ups of breasts, buttocks, or crotches

29. Any solicitation or communication involving sports betting / gambling / online casinos / bookies and or internet based card or slot machine systems or sites will lead to all said content being physically removed from the site and server, and will lead to any and or all parties involved being permanently removed and banned from the site to the farthest extent possible. This includes any links to any form of bookmaker, casino, any type of game or match or event where money transfers on the outcome or link of any sort to wire act violations and or anything in violation of either the Internet Gambling Regulation, Consumer Protection, and Enforcement Act, Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006, or the Federal wire Act. This applies not only to the open forum but all and or any chat rooms, articles, private messages and or private forums. All content that violates this rule will be deleted, without notice.

CONSEQUENCES

Failure to comply with any of the forum rules may result in your posts being edited or deleted and/or your account being temporarily or permanently banned from the forums. U.S. Politics Online uses a warning system that generates an automated Private Message to members when they are in violation of Forum rules. The decision to issue a warning is left to the discretion of the moderator or administrator handling the violation. If a member does not agree with an action taken by a moderator, they can appeal to an administrator after seeking clarification from the moderator who issued the warning/infraction and appealing to them in the first instance. Members MAY NOT harass a moderator or administrator by sending excessive PMs when they are discussing an appeal.

Violations are assigned a point value. Points are valid for 30 days. When a members earns 10 points, their account will be automatically suspended: five (5) days for a first suspension; ten (10) days for a second suspension; and twenty (20) days for a third suspension. If a member incurs an additional 10 points after having served three periods of suspension, then they will be permanently banned from the Forum.

Point values are as follows:
Zero (0) points – Warning
Two (2) points - Minor infraction / Non post infraction (minor) / Off topic posts / spamming
Four (4) points - Academic dishonesty / Baiting / Discussing moderator or administrator actions / Implying an insult / Minor insults / Moderate infraction / Non-post infraction (moderate) / Thread dumping
Six (6) points - Direct insult at another member / major infraction / Non-post infraction (major)
Ten (10) points - Act of criminality, or advocating thereof

The administrators and moderators also bear the right to issue warnings, temporarily suspend or ban posters for continued trolling or other serious misconduct (eg. professional spamming) even if the poster has not yet reached the maximum warning points or suspensions level. Other options if the above consequences do not seem adequate include placing the member in a moderation queue, which means all posts will have to be approved before they are posted to the board.

PRIVACY POLICY

All information obtained by the end user via the registration process is for internal purposes only and will not be sold to or shared with any third parties. However, if the end user participates in illegal activities and a court of proper jurisdiction orders U.S. Politics Online to release certain information about said user then we will act according to the law. Furthermore, no information will be released on threat of a lawsuit, attempted or actual intimidation, or due to any other reason except as notated in the first sentence of this paragraph. Nonetheless, keep in mind that the information we do have is very limited and generally only consists of the IP address a member uses.

SUBSCRIPTIONS

U.S. Politics Online offers several subscription plans to help cover the operational costs of the site. As a thank you for your donation, you will receive special added benefits meant to enhance your U.S. Politics Online experience. Plans vary in price, starting at only $0.05/day, and benefits vary with the price. Benefits include ability to go straight to new posts, to search the forum, larger avatar, private forums, invisible mode, photo gallery, email, web hosting, and no advertisement banners. Please, click here for more details.
See more
See less

The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

    Originally posted by Commodore View Post
    Total war means that a nations entire economic output is dedicated to the war effort. Meaning that civilians who man the war factories become military targets.
    Uh, I don't where you get that definition. Total War :
    A war that is unrestricted in terms of the weapons used, the territory or combatants involved, or the objectives pursued, esp. one in which the laws of war are disregarded

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #47
      Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

      Originally posted by Slon View Post
      I don't know of any modern, internationally competitive military (including the US military) that grows its own food, builds its own weapons and raises its own soldiers. I'm pretty sure it relies on the country's economy to support it. So then, on 9/11, were the twin towers fair game in a total war?
      Correct. At least from AlQ's point of view. From the US vantage point, total war makes little sense. It is an asymmetrical conflict in this case, against a stateless entity. Primary targeting of AlQ leadership along with methods to stabilize countries in that part of the world seems to be paying off. Killing everything isn't do-able from our perspective, but would make sense *in the twisted mind of AlQ.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #48
        Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

        Originally posted by jet57 View Post
        Yeah; total war is total war. Once you make that commitment there's no turning back. Good, bad, right, wrong, for what ever plethora of reasons, it's over. I for one don't much care for being made to be sme sort of bad guy (American) over it. Japanese officers orded soildiers to commit suicide and we did what we had to do; so.
        Well, that in itself is an interesting note. As a cultural statement, it is not the first time the US has fought somewhere in Asia / Far East and faced an enemy willing to die to ensure he takes someone with him. Japanese officers did more than just order soldiers to commit suicide in ground combat conditions, but also flew planes into the side of ships turning themselves into missiles. You can fast forward all the way to Vietnam and see plenty of record of the enemy ordering some of their own to strap vests to themselves loaded with explosives in order to hit key targets where American officers were giving orders.

        As sad as this sounds the only way to fight someone willing to do that is to scare the hell out of them, when it comes to Japan and WWII the use of Atomic War did just that. "Total war is total war"... you are right.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #49
          Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

          Since I am late to the thread.

          Everything I have read and everything I have learned in life and College. The Japanese people considered the Emperor a God. As such he was infallible and was to be followed explicitly. The psyche of the Japanese was such they would have fought right down to the youngest child. Their Honor and strong belief in this whole hierarchy ensured that taking them would be almost impossible. The Kamikaze reflect their absolute devotion to the Emperor.

          The dropping of the first bomb was necessary to show them the total destruction capability we had. The second even though it was our only other one was to ensure they knew we could do it again and make them believe we had an arsenal. We had to break the absolute devotion to the Emperor and belief they would win no matter what.

          As far as I am concerned the Japanese never gave up the war. They shifted to an economic war that has definitely affected us.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #50
            Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

            Originally posted by Slon View Post
            I don't know of any modern, internationally competitive military (including the US military) that grows its own food, builds its own weapons and raises its own soldiers. I'm pretty sure it relies on the country's economy to support it. So then, on 9/11, were the twin towers fair game in a total war?
            Unfortunately yes, although that "total war" is a little different than the topic of WWII. From the perspective of those who believed they were at war with the US and responsible for the twin towers hitting civilians was a response to what they felt were actions against their civilians. Right or wrong is a whole new debate but the point is in all out war it is a naive to see civilians as off limits for the reasons you have listed.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #51
              Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

              Originally posted by Good1 View Post
              When I turned in that paper back during my undergrad years, the Professor made us defend our position against the whole class (part of the reason I enjoy arguing today).

              The perspective of most of the students (at that Christian university somewhere near Los Angeles) was quite different from what most of you guys (from all sides of the political ideology, I might add) are expressing here.

              Most of the students in the class (the professor, wisely, remained silent and it is my guess, he actually read my paper) kept trying to move the goalposts over to the "morals" argument. I think I put them off when I absolutely agreed with them on THAT plane: But the issue on which I wrote was whether or not the use of the atom bomb against Japan was militarily justified... and they were miffed when I kept dragging them back to the question I actually answered.

              I am late, but I want to throw in my own 2 cents into this.

              The problem with most people who try to debate this topic is that they really do not know what they are talking about. They are discussing it at an emotional level, without any real analysis of the Pacific War, and what it's conclusion would be like.

              Let me open with a few statistics, to put this in perspective.

              Number of surrenders of Japanese forces of platoon size or larger prior to June 1945: 0
              Of over 4,700 Japanese soldiers who fought at Tarawa, only 17 were captured.
              Of over 22,000 Japanese soldiers who fought on Iwo Jima, only 216 were captured.

              Now before I give the last 2 statistics, notice the use of the word "captured", not "surrender". Most Japanese soldiers captured were unconscious or injured, surrenders were very rare.

              Of the over 31,000 Japanese soldiers at Saipan, only 931 were captured.
              Of the roughly 25,000 Japanese civilians living on Saipan, between 18-20,000 of them committed suicide.

              Now everybody needs to understand the last one, and understand it well.

              Saipan was the only island that had a large culturally Japanese civilian population that was invaded during the war. This is because Saipan was formerly a German colony, awarded to Japan after World War I. And they spent years building up a civilian population on the island, and set up fishing companies and several sugar growing and refining facilities on the island.

              And when the islands fell, the civilian population committed mass suicide.

              To understand this, you have to be aware of several key factors of Japanese culture in the early Showa era.

              First, is Shinto, the state religion. This is a religion where the center is Emperor Showa, who is a living god. He was the 124th in an unbroken chain of Devine Emperors, in the oldest unbroken Monarchy in the history of the planet. Emperor Jimmu was a historical contemporary of Cyrus, of Nebuchadnezzar and the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians, of Sappho, of Ezekiel, of Romulus & Remus and the founding of Rome, of Budda, of Aesop. This is their founder, and Emperor Showa was his direct descendent, over 2,500 years of continual rule by a single dynasty.

              So is it any wonder they viewed their culture and religion as superior to all others?

              Then we add in the embodiment of this spirit, Yamato-damashii. This is literally "Japanese Spirit", think of it as a combination f the Jewish concept of being the "Chosen People", combined with the Aryan or Roman concept that they are destined to rule all that they can seize. And they will do so, even if they die in the attempt.

              Now add in the rebirth of Bushido. The concept that it is the duty of everybody to fight for the Emperor, even to the death. In fact, death is an honor, death can even be preferred to life if it serves the Emperor. This is the code that kept Japan as a feudal state for over 800 years.

              Now Bushido and Shinto combine to make a very unique culture. Shinto is the only major religion in the world which has no prohibition on suicide. In Shinto, suicide is actually an honor, with rituals built up on it. Most know of Hara Kiri, "Belly slitting" as a way of suicide. This is actually a crude term for Seppuku, a way to atone for a disgrace or loss. It may range from Seppuku where the individual writes a death poem, has a meal, then makes a vertical slit of the belly as they lean forward so a second can decapitate them leaving the head attached by a flap of skin at the throat. Or it may go all the way to jūmonji giri (cross shaped cut). In jūmonji giri, the individual has no second. They make 2 diagonal cuts from side to ribcage, then pull out their own intestines and spread them on the floor in front of them. They then remain sitting with their bloody hands in front of their face until they die without uttering a sound.

              Think about that kind of culture, in which such behavior was expected. And this continues to this day. Japan still has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Teens will kill themselves for not getting good grades, or failing to be accepted into a college of their choice. Businessmen will kill themselves if they make a bad decision, or if their business fails. Even today, Japan has a suicide rate over double of the United States.

              Now we have the final piece of the puzzle, the Taisei Yokusankai or "Imperial Rule Assistance Association". Basically this is the equivalent of the Japanese Fascist Party. It completely ran all aspects of Japanese life, including the Greater Japan Imperial Rule Assistance Youth Corps (think "Hitler Youth") and the Kempeitai (think Gestapo combined with SS). Disobeying them was almost literally a death sentence, they were authorized to issue summary punishments, including executions.

              The Taisei Yokusankai through the War Cabinet literally ran the country. And in August 1945, this consisted of 7 people.

              Prime Minister Admiral Kantarō Suzuki
              Minister of Foreign Affairs Shigenori Tōgō
              Minister of the Army General Korechika Anami
              Minister of the Navy Admiral Mitsumasa Yonai
              Chief of the Army General Staff General Yoshijirō Umezu
              Chief of the Navy General Staff Admiral Soemu Toyoda

              And Emperor Showa. But like the President of the Senate, he only has a vote if needed to break a tie. He is not to give any input, say nothing, and only cast a vote if asked.

              Now on to the actual surrender.

              On 27 July 1945, the Allied Powers released the Potsdam Declaration, calling for the unconditional surrender of Japan. And on 27 July Prime Minister Suzuki met with the press where he made the following statement:

              I consider the Joint Proclamation a rehash of the Declaration at the Cairo Conference. As for the Government, it does not attach any important value to it at all. The only thing to do is just kill it with silence (mokusatsu). We will do nothing but press on to the bitter end to bring about a successful completion of the war.
              Now the word he used "Mmokusatsu" translates as "treat with contempt". In other words, they had no intention of agreeing to any kind of surrender. In fact, all the claims that they were trying to surrender are fale, they were trying to arrange an armistice, a quid pro quo ante bellum where Japan returned to her pre-war borders with no occupation.

              Needless to say, that was not acceptable to any of the Allied powers.

              Now for the timeline. On 6 August, the first bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. On 8 August the Soviets invaded Chosin and Manchuko, and on 9 August the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki.

              And what were the votes in the War Cabinet on those days?

              5 August, 0 in favor of ending the war, 6 in favor of continuing to the end.
              6 August, 3 in favor of ending the war (Suzuki, Tōgō, Yonai), 3 in favor of continuing (Anami, Umezu, Toyoda)
              7 August, 3 in favor of ending the war, 3 in favor of continuing.
              8 August, 3 in favor of ending the war, 3 in favor of continuing.
              9 August, 3 in favor of ending the war, 3 in favor of continuing.
              10 August, 3 in favor of ending the war, 3 in favor of continuing.

              Now on 9 August the cabinet was informed by a captured pilot that the US had another 100 bombs, and they would start to use them in the next few days.

              Finally in the early morning of 10 August, Prime Minister Suzuki called for Emperor Showa to break the deadlock. Even with the use of 2 atomic bombs, the threat of 100 more, and the invasion by the Soviets and the continued preparation for the invasion of Japan, they were still hopelessly deadlocked.

              This is when the Emperor cast the deciding vote, and accepted the Potsdam Declaration with a single change, that the Emperor remains in power.

              So anybody who believes that Japan would have surrendered otherwise is delusional. They could not even agree to surrender with the bombs.

              The plan to invade Japan was known as Operation Downfall. The largest invasion ever, casualties were expected to be horrific. The most scientific study of expectations ran from 1.7-4 million Allied casualties, with over half a million fatalities. And between 5-10 million Japanese fatalities.

              Japan as we know it would have ceased to exist.

              A bit of trivia here, casualties were expected to be so high that the War Department ordered 500,000 Purple Heart medals. When the invasion never happened, they were placed into storage. And we are still issuing them to this day, almost 70 years later and we still have over 100,000 of those medals in storage. The medals issued today to soldiers injured in Afghanistan were made for their great-grandfathers for an invasion that never happened.

              As a final note, consider this. I have studied Japan for over 30 years. I have lived in Japan, and I love both the people and the culture. I am fascinated by it, but also am frightened by what it can become if they feel the need. The Japanese soldier was unquestionable the toughest in the world at the time, enduring hardships on a routine basis that would have caused soldiers in other countries to surrender en masse. In Europe we had entire Divisions, Corps and Armies surrendering. In the Pacific, most soldiers were captured, they did not surrender. And even civilians died by the thousands rather then surrender.

              Now scale that up to the population of the main islands.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #52
                Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

                Thank you for all that background on Japan's war mentality, Mushroom. I was aware of Shinto and of the Bushido and included them in that report I wrote as an undergrad, but the rest of your treatment doesn't surprise me and, indeed, makes a lot more sense of their behavior.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #53
                  Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

                  Decisions at the time are different from decisions in retrospect.

                  At the time, we only had two bombs. They were of two different types, and didn't know for sure either one would work.

                  If word had gotten out that we had a weapon to end the war and Truman had chosen not to use it, he would have been lynched.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #54
                    Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

                    Originally posted by jpn View Post
                    At the time, we only had two bombs. They were of two different types, and didn't know for sure either one would work.

                    If word had gotten out that we had a weapon to end the war and Truman had chosen not to use it, he would have been lynched.
                    Actually, this is not true at all. After all, they had already tested the Implosion design of Fat Man once before, in the Trinity test. So they knew for a fact that it worked. And no, the US did not have only 2 bombs.

                    The 4th was already enroute to the Tinian, and would have been ready to use in the last 2 weeks of August. And the 5th was in California undergoing final assembly before being shipped to the theatre. And it was estimated they could have an additional 3-4 finished by the end of the year. And in reality, the US atomic stockpile at the end of 1945 was 6 atomic bombs.

                    And President Truman would have been rightfully lynched if he had continued with Operation Downfall, without using everything in his power to end the war without an invasion. It would have been criminal to kill 2-8 million people if there was any realistic alternative.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #55
                      Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

                      Originally posted by Mushroom View Post
                      Actually, this is not true at all. After all, they had already tested the Implosion design of Fat Man once before, in the Trinity test. So they knew for a fact that it worked. And no, the US did not have only 2 bombs.

                      The 4th was already enroute to the Tinian, and would have been ready to use in the last 2 weeks of August. And the 5th was in California undergoing final assembly before being shipped to the theatre. And it was estimated they could have an additional 3-4 finished by the end of the year. And in reality, the US atomic stockpile at the end of 1945 was 6 atomic bombs.

                      And President Truman would have been rightfully lynched if he had continued with Operation Downfall, without using everything in his power to end the war without an invasion. It would have been criminal to kill 2-8 million people if there was any realistic alternative.
                      Well said...

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #56
                        Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

                        Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                        Well said...
                        indeed

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #57
                          Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

                          As I understood the strategy, Little Boy was to show Japan that we have this awesome weapon and will use it to our greatest advantage. Fat Man was to illustrate to them we have more than one... AND will use them to our greatest military advantage.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #58
                            Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

                            Originally posted by Good1 View Post
                            As I understood the strategy, Little Boy was to show Japan that we have this awesome weapon and will use it to our greatest advantage. Fat Man was to illustrate to them we have more than one... AND will use them to our greatest military advantage.
                            It also goes a lot deeper then that.

                            Remember, under Bushido and Shinto, there is no disgrace in suicide. In fact, it is even encouraged. Better to die then honor then life with dishonor. And surrender and defeat was about the biggest dishonor there was.

                            Culturally, this gave them an "out" from the trap of their own culture. This can be seen specifically in Emperor Showa's speech (the first time his voice had ever been broadcast) where he told them would be "enduring the unendurable and suffering what is unsufferable". That surrender was not dishonorable when the only other possibility was complete ruin and defeat with nothing to gain. Not even honorable defeat in battle, but simply destruction from a bomb they could do nothing about.

                            And the irony of this is that this likely would not have been as effective in Germany. Different culture and different motivations.

                            And ironically, General MacArthur was the perfect person to send to Japan to deal with the fallen foe. There is no doubt that at this time he hated the Japanese. But he also understood and respected them as warriors and as a culture. And his influence can still be seen there to this day.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #59
                              Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

                              Originally posted by Mushroom View Post
                              Actually, this is not true at all.
                              Far be it from me to debate this point with a guy whose name is "Mushroom."

                              מה מכילות החדשות?


                              • #60
                                Re: The Use of the Atom Bomb against Japan

                                Originally posted by jpn View Post
                                Far be it from me to debate this point with a guy whose name is "Mushroom."
                                LOL

                                Actually, the nickname was one I got in Panama back in 1987. In short, it was because I was "kept in the dark and fed BS" by my higher-ups. Even though I had at one time guarded the damned things, the nickname I use I got years later, and is completely unrelated.

                                But the actual number is not a secret, and are readily available.

                                http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab19.asp

                                http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pub...stockpiles.pdf

                                And the commonly stated number is known for a fact to be wrong (or used in a wrong manner), and that is 2.

                                http://www.archives.gov/declassifica...s-addendum.pdf

                                If this includes the bombs used, then it should be at least 3. So at the least, this must mean the correct number at a minimum (including bombs used) was 5. But we know that they were expecting to use at least 2-4 more before the end of the year, which is in keeping with the estimate of 6 (2 to 4 in theatre, 3-4 in final staged os assembly).

                                מה מכילות החדשות?

                                Working...
                                X