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Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

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  • #16
    Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

    Yeah Sluggo, if there are timelines, or timelines on the macro-scale.

    Time travel according to the best math requires bending a lot of space and poking a whole through it going for the wormhole where one side opens somewhere else in time. But just like the proposed warp drive (which doesn't use the wormhole trick) it would require a huge amount of energy that we lack the ability to create and manipulate. They are definetly thinking well outside the box of what could be engineered.

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    • #17
      Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

      Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
      Here, this will be even more fun.

      Assume for a moment you knew the idea was not really to move an object to another fixed point at considerable distance, but rather that on a time line eventually two points, a starting and and ending point, would cross the same place physically under the assumption that everything in the known galaxy is always on the move.

      So now, the point is not really to move an object from point A to B but rather have an object start at point A and end up at point B when the galaxy was in a new disposition at a future date.

      What we have just done is apply the thinking of the article to a different method. Under this thinking the point becomes manipulation of time and not space. The object does not move, when it exists on a timeline does by taking giant "shortcuts" in time and not "shortcuts" in space.

      Guess what, in theoretical physics this is also something we can suggest is does not break known laws but it does not make is possible either. Enjoy...
      That sounds like an Infinite Improbability Drive

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      • #18
        Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

        Originally posted by erikvv View Post
        That sounds like an Infinite Improbability Drive
        Pretty close, the concept seems similar in many ways. Quantum Mechanics has fun with this subject though...

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        • #19
          Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

          Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
          BD, I know who Feynman was, read papers and books by and about him he was all the rage when I was in college. The man has been dead for over 20 years and there has been a little more work put into the field since then and even when he was alive he wasn't an advocate of Mysticism.
          True, yet he considered David Bohm, who did involve himself in what could perhaps be called mysticism, a brilliant physicist, which of course he was. And, what Feynman said in regards to QM, has not changed sir, and there are plenty of physicists, notable ones, that still maintain what Feynman said. In fact, I would imagine all of them, unless there is a radical in the group somewhere.

          You might be surprised at the number of physicists who don't frown on mysticism as you seem to do, and it began with Niels Bohr. For once you reach a certain level in understanding and intelligence, in regards to the quantum, it is a humbling experience, and that statement came from David Bohm, who was no slacker when it came to QM. I doubt either one of us could keep up with their understanding. Unless you do physics for a livelihood. I am only a follower of QM, and can only understand it when it is popularized in books for the neophytes, when these men try to communicate in language the non physicists can understand.

          I could probably get you a list of notable physicists that are friendly to mysticism, and their credentials are unquestionable. We would begin that list with Niels Bohr.

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          • #20
            Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

            Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
            Yeah Sluggo, if there are timelines, or timelines on the macro-scale.

            Time travel according to the best math requires bending a lot of space and poking a whole through it going for the wormhole where one side opens somewhere else in time. But just like the proposed warp drive (which doesn't use the wormhole trick) it would require a huge amount of energy that we lack the ability to create and manipulate. They are definetly thinking well outside the box of what could be engineered.
            Ever since the concept of a wormhole was born we have had alternate theoretical physics to support the notion of "shortcuts" through what we consider other constants in physics. Our issue is we have no observable evidence that wormholes even exist, or can exist, but we can use theoretical physics deriving from the theory of general relativity to validate the function. Because of this, we can then dream up other theoretical physics to suggest being able to force a puncture in time, or space, to achieve what the math tells us.

            But you are right, until we actually observe the function of energy manipulation to the point of causing changes to presumed physics constants... all we are really doing is engaging in mental masturbation. Then again, that is how we get science fiction stories.

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            • #21
              Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

              Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
              Yeah Sluggo, if there are timelines, or timelines on the macro-scale.

              Time travel according to the best math requires bending a lot of space and poking a whole through it going for the wormhole where one side opens somewhere else in time. But just like the proposed warp drive (which doesn't use the wormhole trick) it would require a huge amount of energy that we lack the ability to create and manipulate. They are definetly thinking well outside the box of what could be engineered.
              Time travel is impossible. Time is a concept created by humans since we cannot think without having a progression. At best time is a measurement of movement across distance. IE: The movement of the second hand across 1/60th of a circle at whatever speed based on the size of the circle is called a second. It is simply that movement across distance. Therefore you cannot go back in time to a "when" that is a specific point in space. Not only did the second hand move but the planet moved, the solar system moved, the universe, etc etc all moved so that particular place no longer is valid.

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              • #22
                Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

                Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
                Time travel is impossible. Time is a concept created by humans since we cannot think without having a progression. At best time is a measurement of movement across distance. IE: The movement of the second hand across 1/60th of a circle at whatever speed based on the size of the circle is called a second. It is simply that movement across distance. Therefore you cannot go back in time to a "when" that is a specific point in space. Not only did the second hand move but the planet moved, the solar system moved, the universe, etc etc all moved so that particular place no longer is valid.
                I would never say impossible, but highly unlikely. Unless there is nothing interesting to see here in the 21st century, we should have run into travelers from the future, as Hawkings suggested. Surely the lack of time travelers is some sort of evidence? No?

                In regards to time, like most people, we seem to know what it is, until someone asks us what it is. LOL. But without a doubt, the human brain sees time as linear, but that is just a concept, a creation of a brain that is capable to create images, concepts. No one really knows what time is, other than concepts that are created. It is possible that time is an illusion, created by the brain itself, in order to be able to make various predictions. And then we all agree on the concepts, and it is so.

                For us human beings, time comes to an end at the death of the brain. So it looks like time itself is related to consciousness. No consciousness, no time. So one could easily say, and it be logical, that time only exists when there is a brain that is conscious. And so the universe only exists when there is consciousness. That consciousness creates time as well as the universe. No one can prove that this isn't the case, so we assume that it isn't.

                For the actual truth is, we really do not know which side of the universe is up, and since there is this great unknowing, the brain creates concepts to make sense out of it all. For some reason, that we do not know. The brain also sees itself as totally separate from the universe it inhabits. But more than likely, this is simple illusion, that provides a tool. And the fact may very well be, that you cannot separate a brain, and consciousness itself from the universe, that they are not separate, but conceptional parts of the Whole. Only in concept can the two be separated, and then we forget it was only an idea, this separation. As it is with time. Perhaps the only real time travel will remain just an idea, which we can play with, inside our own minds. For time is nothing more than a concept, a creation of a brain that can store information, and thinking is then nothing more than the response of memory. No one can think of something that is not already stored in the brain, and insights, as most people who have them will tell you, the new, only occurs when the brain is not thinking for just a moment, not looking back into memory, which is the past. Yet when thought is not moving, there is absolutely no sense of time at all. So it seems that thought itself creates time, thought is time, and they cannot be separated except as an imagining.

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                • #23
                  Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

                  Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
                  Time travel is impossible. Time is a concept created by humans since we cannot think without having a progression. At best time is a measurement of movement across distance. IE: The movement of the second hand across 1/60th of a circle at whatever speed based on the size of the circle is called a second. It is simply that movement across distance. Therefore you cannot go back in time to a "when" that is a specific point in space. Not only did the second hand move but the planet moved, the solar system moved, the universe, etc etc all moved so that particular place no longer is valid.
                  Never said time or space were standing still. Time travel alone would get someone very dead precisely because the whole universe is moving. Math models for time travel are as well established as they are for warp drives and they aren't as easy an whimsical as some Victorian Gentleman sitting in a really funky chair and flipping a switch.
                  I'd recomend anyone interested in the nature of time search out and read the Oxford Lectures On Time, good stuff from very well educated people on just what the heck time is.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

                    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                    I would never say impossible, but highly unlikely. Unless there is nothing interesting to see here in the 21st century, we should have run into travelers from the future, as Hawkings suggested. Surely the lack of time travelers is some sort of evidence? No?
                    What do you think the UFOs are? As pointed out upthread the whole universe is moving, a time machine would aslo have to be a spaceship unless someone wanted to get very dead. You've seen one yourself, the past is a foreign country, surely the future is too.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

                      Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
                      Time travel is impossible. Time is a concept created by humans since we cannot think without having a progression. At best time is a measurement of movement across distance. IE: The movement of the second hand across 1/60th of a circle at whatever speed based on the size of the circle is called a second. It is simply that movement across distance. Therefore you cannot go back in time to a "when" that is a specific point in space. Not only did the second hand move but the planet moved, the solar system moved, the universe, etc etc all moved so that particular place no longer is valid.
                      Close, in the most simplistic of definitions time is measuring the interval of change. Saying we cannot think without progression indicates that if we did not, there would not be progression. We know that is not the case as before man even dreamed up the notion of time, progression still existed. It is also not distance even though we present both the measurement and the recording of as if it was. Lastly, those that dream in the world of QM would disagree with you on a prior point in that progression no longer being valid.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

                        Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
                        Time travel is impossible. Time is a concept created by humans since we cannot think without having a progression. At best time is a measurement of movement across distance. IE: The movement of the second hand across 1/60th of a circle at whatever speed based on the size of the circle is called a second. It is simply that movement across distance. Therefore you cannot go back in time to a "when" that is a specific point in space. Not only did the second hand move but the planet moved, the solar system moved, the universe, etc etc all moved so that particular place no longer is valid.
                        I don't see how that's true: "time" the way we know it today is a concept, but without light there would be nothing to conceive. If warp drive works, then scanning our planet from light years away will reveal the past.
                        Last edited by jet57; 07-05-2014, 09:08 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Warp Drive a Mathematical Reality

                          Originally posted by jet57 View Post
                          I don't see how that's true: "time" the way we know it today is a concept, but without light there would be nothing to conceive. If warp drive works, then scanning our planet from light years away will reveal the past.
                          We can look into the past in that instance BUT we cannot go to that point. What you are actually seeing is the light from that event reaching the point you are at. You are not actually looking at that instant in any way other than like a movie.

                          Natives measured time in "moons" or from full moon to full moon. Ancients tracked the movement of the sun. Time is and always has been the measurement of movement across distance. Even the Atomic clock that is supposed to be our most accurate measurement of time still requires something to move a certain distance in order to define what time is.

                          It is impossible for our brains to describe something without effort if we do not want to describe some form of time language.

                          Try writing a paragraph about anything that is of reasonable length not just one or two sentences without using ANY reference to some form of time or use of time language.

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