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Dick Cheney Was Lying About Torture

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
    Reality is no tougher when America and other civilized nations deemed water boarding torture and agreed with others to not do it. We then proscecuted the Japanese for using it. Reality has always been tough. Far too many americans, coming from the conservative side, don't have much use for older principles. They like wallowing in the mire. They see moral principles as a weakness. Christian right wing radio is in support of torture. The same mindset the RCC evolved out of, with its own tortures. Fundamentalism brought it back. Yet even fundamentalism used to be against it. Yeah, we are living in the Crazy Years. We have lost our way, and we celebrate it. We love being the lowest common denominator. That is what has changed.
    I think you might be making some comparisons that don't actually work, I'm not sure ?

    I agree that we HAVE lost our way - in SO many ways - I'm just not sure we will be able to find our way BACK without some serious hell FIRST.

    There are many many people on this planet looking forward to awarding us this hell too, so ... maybe we'll find our way back .... in time .. .after a lot of trouble that we brought on ourselves.


    • #92
      Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
      Reality is no tougher when America and other civilized nations deemed water boarding torture and agreed with others to not do it. We then proscecuted the Japanese for using it. Reality has always been tough.

      Can you show me where we prosecuted a Japanese interrogator who’s worst offense was waterboarding?

      Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
      Far too many americans, coming from the conservative side, don't have much use for older principles. They like wallowing in the mire. They see moral principles as a weakness. Christian right wing radio is in support of torture. The same mindset the RCC evolved out of, with its own tortures. Fundamentalism brought it back. Yet even fundamentalism used to be against it. Yeah, we are living in the Crazy Years. We have lost our way, and we celebrate it. We love being the lowest common denominator. That is what has changed.

      Um, yeah; we need to get back to the morality of the FDR years;

      American soldiers in the Pacific often deliberately killed Japanese soldiers who had surrendered. According to Richard Aldrich, who has published a study of the diaries kept by United States and Australian soldiers, they sometimes massacred prisoners of war. Dower states that in "many instances ... Japanese who did become prisoners were killed on the spot or en route to prison compounds." According to Aldrich it was common practice for U.S. troops not to take prisoners. This analysis is supported by British historian Niall Ferguson, who also says that, in 1943, "a secret [U.S.] intelligence report noted that only the promise of ice cream and three days leave would ... induce American troops not to kill surrendering Japanese."


      • #93
        Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
        So to beat terrorists we have to be ok with abandoning our morals and stooping to their level and forget that we're supposed to be the good guys.
        Whatever happened to having lines we don't cross and if you're fine with doing this to terrorists how long before this starts to be used against regular criminals as just a matter of course just so you don't appear to be soft on criminals.

        Stooping to their levels. I don't recall us beheading anyone, I don't recall us raping kidnapped victims and then killing them and selling their organs. I don't recall us going into schools and killing hundreds of school children. I don't recall us killing people for refusing to convert to a different religion. I don't recall us filling ditches with prisoners and machine gunning them. I don't recall us crucifying people. Maybe we aren't quite stooping to their level.


        • #94
          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
          Stooping to their levels. I don't recall us beheading anyone, I don't recall us raping kidnapped victims and then killing them and selling their organs. I don't recall us going into schools and killing hundreds of school children. I don't recall us killing people for refusing to convert to a different religion. I don't recall us filling ditches with prisoners and machine gunning them. I don't recall us crucifying people. Maybe we aren't quite stooping to their level.
          Indeed we are not. Any claim that we are seems to be facetious.


          • #95
            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

            Well, if anyone has a problem discerning evil, you just gave an example of what evil looks like. And are these not supposed to be people of religion? So, if you want to know what a religion of satan looks like, you gave an example of that too.

            But the best thing we could ever do, is to pull out of that part of the world, and let them live in their evilness. If those people want to live like that, then let em. Sooner or later the good people there will clean up that infestation of rats. So, lets us leave it up to them.. Within a generation, since we would not be interfering, they would have no need to come after us.

            We need a president, who has the good sense to withdraw from the middle east. Columbus took those great risks across the unknown, in order to find a way to india, without having to travel through muslim lands. LOL.. Not much has changed since that time.

            Now, if you want to spend the next hundred years or so, fighting muslims, having them coming after americans, wherever they can find them, insuring that there will be a never ending supply of them coming after us, get yourself a president who will keep butting our noses in their business. Hillary will be a good one. Don't think she is empathetic, she is a hawk. She would make Obama look like Gandhi. This nation needs a man like Ron Paul, who understands cause/effects. He is the only one who knows he lives in a cause effect universe.
            You are staying true to your theory of how and why cause and effect has created this situation we're in with the Middle East, and it could be true and may have gone the way you believe it would have went down had we stayed out of it. But it is just a theory. And there are many who believe as you do.

            However, I and many others see the it differently as well. There are many reasons other than the economic reasons that were definitely at play in addition to proactive and defensive reasons why we got involved to protect our nation and other nations as well.

            We go in to help and fight the enemy Ebola to help the people of the infested nation, because 1 - We care about human life outside our country. 2 - We want to keep the virus from spreading to other nations that have people that we care about as well. And 3 - We know that as Ebola spreads it will eventually become a threat to our nation as well. We risk the lives of American soldiers to assist is the destruction of this virus for these reasons. Involvement. No one complains about that. These radical Muslims are nothing more than the Ebola virus. I believe those who decided, and took action as to involve America regarding the Radical Muslims saw it this way and I support that theory. Ebola will kill without concern for human life the same way these terrorists do. Would you propose that we should have stayed out of the Ebola issue and it would have resolved itself without our intervention?

            I see one difference that you may proclaim. Ebola is not a living human being like the radical Muslims. I object to that difference. Blood and Flesh, but that's the only difference.

            It also get's me to as why, I'll use the word torture because I don't believe the label really matters. Most individuals when asked that question being thrown around, "If one of your kids were taken, and one of the kidnappers were caught, would you stop at nothing to get info that could save your child's life?" Well even those who oppose the torture techniques; either evaded the question, or hesitantly agreed that the would do anything and passed it off as if it was a silly question that didn't apply. So this is who WE ARE. People that would stop at nothing to protect our loved ones/our innocent children. So why does anyone believe that when we collect together as a country we should deny who we are and pretend that we are above it. We are not. No compassionate, loving, human, civilized person in the world is not. Save a few. When it comes to this we are no different than a lioness protecting her cub. This is a fact of humanity. Natural instinct that is a part of our very being.

            This entire issue is brought to light to force people to challenge their principles. It's easier to convince the people who are removed from the reality of the threat, who have not suffered at the hands of this evil. It's easy to stay true what one believes if their principles are only challenged in theory and not in reality when one is forced to make such a decision. Well America is our baby and when the chips were down all gov't officials were responsible to protect Americans as a parent protects their children and they turned a blind eye to the torture as they knew it was necessary to protect. It is deliberately insinuated that in order to be a civilized nation that we must suppress our human nature to pretend we, as Americans, are above being human. A trait we were born with for survival. Born with the same nature of a lioness. Animal and human. The difference between humans and animals is that we were born with the additional gift of compassion, and higher intelligence with the ability to feel beyond our instinct with the ability to reason. We as humans can, do, and should use this ability that separates us from the animals, but not force upon ourselves the denial of this human nature that is necessary for our survival, but to know when to keep it at bay and when it NEEDS to be unleashed. That is who we are, lets stop pretending we are something we are not in the name of civilized behavior. A theory of who we want to think we could be and not a reality of who we actually are. We can be civilized, but only to point. Just a little bit arrogant to believe we can and should overcome who we righteously are, especially when preaching to others.

            America is people of compassion that will take every measure to the best of our ABILITY to treat all others humanely, but when pushed to far, we will stop at nothing to protect ourselves and our loved ones. Let's accept it and appreciate it so we can survive.

            Now sit and contemplate if you are a supreme being, or a human being.

            Now we must use all the gifts we have been given as nature intended and stop at nothing to get whatever we need out of these captured terrorists. The only reasonable conclusion is that Cheney was right on! and a man to be admired and appreciated. He took all the gifts we were born with and used them to the best of human ability. He protected us, so stop spitting in his face.
            Last edited by msc; 12-20-2014, 07:23 AM.