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Civil Wrongs

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  • #91
    Originally posted by radcentr View Post
    The same could be said of FDR's policies. It was the administrations that followed him that overloaded the gov't.

    How about we cut to the chase. Politicians are not the best economists. They start the screwup by assuming the economists they consult are selected for their scientific accuracy. Politicians select economists when their views fit the political angle they are trying to pitch. Accuracy comes in second when it comes to policy.

    Hence the "less is better" gov't. went to it's extreme, deregulating to the point of not sanctioning major players in the finance sector, even if those players were major (not the only) factors in bringing down the economy. The "more is better" gov't. faction did not consider whether the long term objective of reducing poverty had to depend on gov't. services, or if a mix between public and private sector programs would have worked better. Neither side yet considers an alternative which goes contrary to the establishment policies to minimize poverty. We are still left with Big Biz (which is outsourcing jobs) or Big Gov't. (which can't find new jobs that stimulate consumer spending).
    We surely can say the same about FDR. It's fine to make an educated guess with the limited education we ALL have to calculate what would have happened after, but not fair or realistic to be confident that there is no way we could be wrong about our calculated guess. Always have to consider that none of us have such intelligence or divine power to anticipate every possible situation that could have come up had we gone in a different direction. And really quite arrogant of humans to believe that they could possible know how the mass of minds of other human beings would have reacting in situations that never took place.

    Where we're all the same is that we calculate our best based on what we've learned. Statistics allow us to calculate. What HAS happened allows us to calculate that perhaps it shouldn't have happened.

    Where many are different is that some know that we can not calculate completely accurately based on what we do not know. Some believe they know exactly what would have happened, and some admit to themselves that we can not possibly know for fact. Some of us understand that in the short time we have a better chance of being more accurate, but in the long term, when we've gone in so many different directions, it makes hindsite more cloudy and less of chance to be accurate.

    Answer is that we can't go back, therefore there is no reason why we should be trying to pinpoint exactly where we went wrong way back when and pretend that we can go all the way back and choose a different path. That mindset can accomplish nothing more than writing a good book about an alternate universe. We need to absorb what we've learned based on what did happen, and correct short term wrongs while trying to get on the right path to free, equal, flourishing America. We've got what we got, and what are we going to do about it now? We need to see what's going wrong in current time, use our education from what DID happen in the past and calculate the best feasible action we can take now to rectify the current situation while causing the least harm to a society built on all these mistakes. We keep doing this until we are back on a better path to our desired destination.

    Here's a good one. Had past settlers never kidnapped black people from Africa and had African leaders never sold their people to these Americans, I can say and actually do believe that America would be at a place right now. One might also say that the Black race would be in a better place right now. Seems obvious, right? With the knowledge I have of what DID happen and my righteous belief that every life is the same and only actions define humans, I do feel confident that slavery in any way shape or form is always the wrong decision.

    But I am aware that I calculate a better America without anticipating what society might have done at that time to replace the evil, had they not been doing it to Africans. We can not be confident and guarantee, that in the big picture America as a whole would have been a better place today. That would be contingent on believing that society wouldn't have taken a different wrong path. Would something else much worse or equally bad, have happened. Very possible. I don't know and you don't know. Do I believe those Americans took the wrong path back then. You bet your ass I do. Never should have been done. No way to conclude it could have been a good move. Abusing or taking an innocent life. Steeling free will from any human being for any purpose other than defending from wrong doers, is wrong, and has been wrong throughout time. As the ultimate goal for all of humanity is for us to live in peace. To be happy! Is it not? No way slavery could lead to peace and happiness for humanity.
    Last edited by msc; 07-13-2016, 10:25 AM.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by msc View Post

      ....

      Answer is that we can't go back, therefore there is no reason why we should be trying to pinpoint exactly where we went wrong way back when and pretend that we can go all the way back and choose a different path. That mindset can accomplish nothing more than writing a good book about an alternate universe. We need to absorb what we've learned based on what did happen, and correct short term wrongs while trying to get on the right path to free, equal, flourishing America. We've got what we got, and what are we going to do about it now? We need to see what's going wrong in current time, use our education from what DID happen in the past and calculate the best feasible action we can take now to rectify the current situation while causing the least harm to a society built on all these mistakes. We keep doing this until we are back on a better path to our desired destination.

      ...
      There is a difference between making corrections on big past mistakes, and trying to micro-manage all past mistakes. I understand your point, but we (left and right) need to agree that big mistakes are worth correcting.

      That correction should be half the effort, half the total energy that we spend on political administration. Rather than spending that same energy on blaming the opposition. The advantage of this "past mistakes" tactic, is that we have a full plate: Objectives, a program to get there, and results (good, bad or mixed). Your other point, that going too far back in the past is less productive, is also noted. I would add that we should choose fewer issues to chew on, the farther removed they are from today's problems. Farther away in terms of time, such as the issue of slavery which you use as an example. But compare slavery to Jim Crow, and we have something much more recent as well as much more relevant.

      See where I'm going with this? Cops and the black community (principally men as you note) are dealing with the remains of Jim Crow. That is arguably much more relevant than the more distant issue of slavery. There were both laws and social expectations that defined the Jim Crow zombie, But parts of those expectations are still around, why I call Jim Crow a "zombie". If the cop on the street is relatively young, but his superiors are older, consider the probability that there is a different reaction because of age. Look at what happened in Baton Rouge, LA, for example. The street protest of BLM was relatively peaceful, while the protest in front of the BR police administration went downhill. The Dallas PD got compliments from the BLM movement, while St. Louis metro area is criticized. There are measures the police have taken (Dallas), which opens the dialogue cops need from the communities they patrol. That's what the cop on the street needs: The community trusts them enuf to quickly inform on the bad guys. They won't get that if police administration tolerates cops detaining someone who is "driving while black".

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      • #93
        President Obama on his July 16th Weekly Address, referring to the conversations he had in Dallas earlier in the week:
        "These conversations were candid, challenging, even uncomfortable at times, but that's the point. We have to be able to talk about these things, honestly and openly, not just in the comfort of our own circles, but with folks who look differently and think differently than we do. Otherwise, we'll never break this dangerous cycle."

        Anyone who read the article linked in my OP may understand how incredibly frustrating I find comments like this. The article is about my experiences in 1987 during my freshman year College Writing 102 class. My professor insisted we needed more racial dialogue in this nation as a solution to racial inequities. Instead of following her lead I questioned the premise. I suggested we had already talked plenty about racial issues throughout the 1980’s and the real path toward equality will be reached the day we stop obsessing over skin color.

        She encouraged – and even led – my classmates in belittling my point of view . . . all the while suggesting I were the one with a closed mind. The irony apparently evaded them.

        Here we are 30 years later with a twice elected African American as the leader of the free world – and he still insists people who ‘'look differently'’ need to engage in more racial conversation. Perpetually encouraging people to discuss ethnic differences – stereotypes in reality – can never lead toward unity. It amazes me that I instinctively understood this reality prior to my eighteenth birthday that well educated Americans still cannot comprehend to this day.


        No, Mr. President, we do not have to talk more about these things. The only reason you invite people who ‘think differently’ than you do is so that you can belittle them and make them feel uncomfortable – and that is the point. His comments remind me exactly why I never wanted to participate in this democrat indoctrination drill termed ‘racial dialogue’ since long before I even identified as a conservative.

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        • #94
          If racial and/or economic factors were insignificant, there would be no significant differences in arrest, prosecution and jail term rates between said groups. Both groups (fe black & white) would approach the same proportion in economic classes, because both groups would have the same quality of schooling, which is the principal (not the only) factor in economic success.

          Quality schooling is not the case across the board. So "racial disparities" arguments continue. Those arguments range from BS (it's the white man's fault, all the time) to accurate (too much acceptance of family dysfunction, as discussed by leaders of poor communities). Stating the BS category describes the whole of racial disparity arguments will not win the "racism is over" claim.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by radcentr View Post
            If racial and/or economic factors were insignificant, there would be no significant differences in arrest, prosecution and jail term rates between said groups. Both groups (fe black & white) would approach the same proportion in economic classes, because both groups would have the same quality of schooling, which is the principal (not the only) factor in economic success.

            Quality schooling is not the case across the board. So "racial disparities" arguments continue. Those arguments range from BS (it's the white man's fault, all the time) to accurate (too much acceptance of family dysfunction, as discussed by leaders of poor communities). Stating the BS category describes the whole of racial disparity arguments will not win the "racism is over" claim.
            What you ignore is that quality schooling is available, just not accepted by the community. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Racism is money for many in the black leadership. Jesse, Al, and company make millions by fomenting racial tensions. Democrats keep racial minorities in line and on the dole for votes. Blacks have voted primarily Democrat for decades with promises of help and it never comes and yet they keep voting for Democrats.

            ?


            • #96
              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

              What you ignore is that quality schooling is available, just not accepted by the community. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Racism is money for many in the black leadership. Jesse, Al, and company make millions by fomenting racial tensions. Democrats keep racial minorities in line and on the dole for votes. Blacks have voted primarily Democrat for decades with promises of help and it never comes and yet they keep voting for Democrats.
              In so far as education, either American blacks are inferior in the intelligence it takes to get an education, which I do not believe at all, OR, there is something about their culture that is inhibiting the education. My opinion is that the black culture is not a culture that turns out educated people in large enough numbers. So dissect the culture, its values, it's family structure, and you may find the problem there. I think personally that is where the problem lies. Hell, I grew up in a time when the south was poor, and many whites would drop out of school usually in high school, but they had the basics down, reading, writing, math, and even Civics for we taught that course then, it was mandatory. And even these drop outs could climb that ladder into the middle and many did. HOW? Well, we made what we consumed then, for a living wage, and they staffed our factories and their kids were sent to college. I know of so many of these people, from my youth, which I still know today, unless they passed away.

              I can also remember when even blacks who dropped out of school here in my area moved from shanty town, filled with shacks, many with no indoor plumbing, and in a few years after we integrated the south and had to hire them in our factories, the good high paying factories, they moved out of shanty town into new brick homes, and tasted the American dream. Hwy 69 here running south out of town, has so many black homes, middle class, at least until deindustrialization that looked just like white middle class homes. These people are all retired today, with pensions, social security, and the poor blacks of my youth have exploded once again in numbers. And the culture of those retired middle class blacks here, is not the current black culture, for these people married, stayed married, and raised kids who got an education.

              So, it really does matter what kind of economy a nation has. For there will always be hordes of americans who are not intellectual enough to be a professional. And it always was that way, and the world is just like that. It is our reality. I do not have the right kind of brain to be a quantum physicist, or even a medical doctor. I am just average, as most people are. And if you do not have an economy where average people can thrive by making what we consume, you are gonna have social problems. And you can set your watch by that, take it to the bank.

              With this said, the problem with education in regards to many blacks is black culture. It is just not a culture that works. And if you point that out, well, that makes you racist. When a culture sees an education as relenting to the white culture, committing treason on the black culture, well, what can you say? You literally have to pull yourself up, by your own effort, regardless of the history of blacks in America, and if you spend your time living in that past, or exerting no effort because of the present conditions, you will remain as you are. If the Jews had of had that attitude, they would never have become what many have become. And the west have hated jews for thousands of years, blaming them for everything that was bad, scapegoating them. Blacks could learn a lesson of life from these people. But too many want to wallow in something else, and what does that ever solve? Life is tough, and tougher more on some, than others. So stop the whimpering and give it your best shot. Good advice in this brutal, unfair, unequal world.

              I always wondered why my own father would never take a dime in disability, after being bad wounded and disabled in war. He was the only man to survive an attack out of his group during the Korean war. He had served at the end of ww2, in japan, in the occupation forces, and was called back for the Korean war. A man who only finished the 9th grade in school. I remember my mom's brother trying to get him to get a check from the gov't, for he qualified for one. But my father would not take a dime in handouts, for he could still drive a tractor on our farm. And he had us kids to do what he could not do. He had neighbors who helped him once we all left home, I have a child hood memory of him being so sick, in bed, we thought he was to die, and he almost did. At the time when our cotton had to be planted and I could not do it by myself given the acreage. But as the sun came up one morning as he lay in bed, I was awakened by the sound of john deere tractors that have their own particular sound, the gas engine kind, and I ran out to see all of his farmer friends, 8 if them preparing the untilled soil for planting. And these men planted his crops, and wouldn't let me help, and if he had still been ill at harvest, they would have picked our cotton, and took it to be ginned and sold. And they refused to be compensated for that planting. And after all of this, even in later years my dad still refused to take gov't handouts for his disability, even under pressure from my mom's brother for years. What happened to this very American attitude, values? We shall never see them again, and it makes me feel sad. So sometimes it is hard for me to have sympathy for a culture who does not hold such values. So sue me.

              But what also makes me sad is that our leaders have sold out the very americans they have a duty to represent, economically. And even an attitude like my dad had, his values, would have a hard time making it today, in a hollowed out America, where the means to make a living for average people has been sent to communists and Mexicans who can be exploited for greater profits. So America has changed, in more ways than one. And it affects not just whites, but blacks as well.
              Last edited by Blue Doggy; 07-19-2016, 07:51 AM.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

                What you ignore is that quality schooling is available, just not accepted by the community. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Racism is money for many in the black leadership. Jesse, Al, and company make millions by fomenting racial tensions. Democrats keep racial minorities in line and on the dole for votes. Blacks have voted primarily Democrat for decades with promises of help and it never comes and yet they keep voting for Democrats.
                Expanding upon your comments, I would suggest that in the decade of the 80's a change took place that African Americans - and therefore the entire country - has been suffering for ever since. I think these 50-year numbers tell a story:

                In 1962 average individual income for blacks was 46% of that for whites. In 1987 average income had risen to 71% of the white average. In 2012 the number was 77%. After a 25% improvement over one quarter century the next 25 years only saw a 6% improvement.

                There are dozens of possible explanations for this slowing progress in such a dynamic economy - such as growth may be exponential meaning it would naturally slow as approaching 100%. Still, I think OldmanDan has pinpointed a big part of the problem. There is a very damaging black culture that formed beginning in the 1980's.The rap music culture - poetry about the horrors of inner city life. Black youths of all social status began idolizing the street life - a culture that thumbs its nose at things like education and community service. Achievement is now defined as 'acting white', the greatest insult one can portray in his/her black heritage. Government replaces fathers, thugs replace neighborhood Pastors, and music replaces education. Here we are today, with the violent crime rate of blacks reaching ten times that of whites.

                I contend that all of this is the fault of James Earl Ray. Martin Luther King Jr. needed more time - not only to get his message through to the American people - but also through to the young black leaders he mentored. If they had properly carried on his message inner city thug culture would have never been allowed to dominate the youth and destroy their futures.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by SupPackFan View Post

                  Expanding upon your comments, I would suggest that in the decade of the 80's a change took place that African Americans - and therefore the entire country - has been suffering for ever since. I think these 50-year numbers tell a story:

                  In 1962 average individual income for blacks was 46% of that for whites. In 1987 average income had risen to 71% of the white average. In 2012 the number was 77%. After a 25% improvement over one quarter century the next 25 years only saw a 6% improvement.

                  There are dozens of possible explanations for this slowing progress in such a dynamic economy - such as growth may be exponential meaning it would naturally slow as approaching 100%. Still, I think OldmanDan has pinpointed a big part of the problem. There is a very damaging black culture that formed beginning in the 1980's.The rap music culture - poetry about the horrors of inner city life. Black youths of all social status began idolizing the street life - a culture that thumbs its nose at things like education and community service. Achievement is now defined as 'acting white', the greatest insult one can portray in his/her black heritage. Government replaces fathers, thugs replace neighborhood Pastors, and music replaces education. Here we are today, with the violent crime rate of blacks reaching ten times that of whites.

                  I contend that all of this is the fault of James Earl Ray. Martin Luther King Jr. needed more time - not only to get his message through to the American people - but also through to the young black leaders he mentored. If they had properly carried on his message inner city thug culture would have never been allowed to dominate the youth and destroy their futures.
                  I agree with much of what you said. But in regards to the 25 years that only saw a 6 percent improvement, WHAT happened to our economy during that period? One thing that happened in my state is that our living wage factories got moved to mexico and communist china. And those factories after we integrated the south, started hiring our black folks, and I literally saw our blacks move from shacks in shanty town, and tiny subsistence farms, to brick homes they were buying, with indoor plumbing and they started owning cars instead of walking. If you had done the same thing today, as happened here in the south in the late 60s, there would have been no factories in enough numbers for these people to see an increase in their income as we saw when we made what we consumed. I do not think anyone can spin this, or wiggle out of the fact. We do not have the jobs today that we had, which allowed these blacks to increase their income here in the south, where so many black people live.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                    If racial and/or economic factors were insignificant, there would be no significant differences in arrest, prosecution and jail term rates between said groups. Both groups (fe black & white) would approach the same proportion in economic classes, because both groups would have the same quality of schooling, which is the principal (not the only) factor in economic success.

                    Quality schooling is not the case across the board. So "racial disparities" arguments continue. Those arguments range from BS (it's the white man's fault, all the time) to accurate (too much acceptance of family dysfunction, as discussed by leaders of poor communities). Stating the BS category describes the whole of racial disparity arguments will not win the "racism is over" claim.
                    And about quality schooling:

                    DC Schools: $29,349 Per Pupil, 83% Not Proficient in Reading


                    The public schools in Washington, D.C., spent $29,349 per pupil in the 2010-2011 school year, according to the latest data from National Center for Education Statistics, but in 2013 fully 83 percent of the eighth graders in these schools were not "proficient" in reading and 81 percent were not "proficient" in math.

                    http://cnsnews.com/commentary/terenc...icient-reading

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                    • Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                      I agree with much of what you said. But in regards to the 25 years that only saw a 6 percent improvement, WHAT happened to our economy during that period? One thing that happened in my state is that our living wage factories got moved to mexico and communist china. And those factories after we integrated the south, started hiring our black folks, and I literally saw our blacks move from shacks in shanty town, and tiny subsistence farms, to brick homes they were buying, with indoor plumbing and they started owning cars instead of walking. If you had done the same thing today, as happened here in the south in the late 60s, there would have been no factories in enough numbers for these people to see an increase in their income as we saw when we made what we consumed. I do not think anyone can spin this, or wiggle out of the fact. We do not have the jobs today that we had, which allowed these blacks to increase their income here in the south, where so many black people live.
                      I know, I always here that there are no 'good' jobs anymore and they all moved to China and Mexico. Then I listen to friends and acquaintances around the nation telling me how there are so many jobs available yet nobody willing to fill them. Anecdotal only - but does make me wonder.

                      One specific example, a good friend in Alabama manages a Railroad Tie processing plant - they take toxic RR ties and turn them into clean burning fuel. For most of the last decade he has struggled to keep all positions filled. We are talking about machine operator positions starting at $45K no schooling required. He cannot keep a full crew of eight trained in for any period of time due to individuals repeatedly missing work, quitting without notice, refusing to work overtime, stealing tools from the company, or generally showing disrespect to management at every given opportunity.

                      I personally know small business owners in Arizona, California, and Louisiana experiences very similar problems. To say we have a capable workforce in this country if manufacturing jobs would return is an exaggeration at best. Those who are most talented and capable already have jobs today. This always includes a small percentage between jobs and moving careers - which is why 5.2% is considered 'full employment'. The rest . . . I am not so sure about.

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                      • Originally posted by SupPackFan View Post

                        I know, I always here that there are no 'good' jobs anymore and they all moved to China and Mexico. Then I listen to friends and acquaintances around the nation telling me how there are so many jobs available yet nobody willing to fill them. Anecdotal only - but does make me wonder.

                        One specific example, a good friend in Alabama manages a Railroad Tie processing plant - they take toxic RR ties and turn them into clean burning fuel. For most of the last decade he has struggled to keep all positions filled. We are talking about machine operator positions starting at $45K no schooling required. He cannot keep a full crew of eight trained in for any period of time due to individuals repeatedly missing work, quitting without notice, refusing to work overtime, stealing tools from the company, or generally showing disrespect to management at every given opportunity.

                        I personally know small business owners in Arizona, California, and Louisiana experiences very similar problems. To say we have a capable workforce in this country if manufacturing jobs would return is an exaggeration at best. Those who are most talented and capable already have jobs today. This always includes a small percentage between jobs and moving careers - which is why 5.2% is considered 'full employment'. The rest . . . I am not so sure about.
                        I hear some right wing people make that claim, but those jobs are not in the south. And if they are anywhere, unless they are highly technical jobs, why are there still more unemployed, than available jobs? And this is using the cooked unemployment rate which is absurd. Real, actual unemployment is double digits. And if you include the people who can only find part time work, which is insufficient to meet living expenses, qualifying them for food stamps, it is higher double digits.

                        Remember, after the crash, when we were shedding 800,000 jobs per month, which went on for quite awhile, the right side were still hollering that these bums should go and get a job that did not exist. But, that has always been a knee jerk reaction from people who choose not to think, and just parrot what someone else says.

                        The problem in America now, is the quality of jobs, for we have a service sector economy. A good service sector economy job is part time work at walmart. That is what some people think is a good job. No, a good job is found in one of our few factories, which are still here. and this town is barely held together because of those few good living wage jobs. And its this way throughout the south which lost most of its manufacturing. No nation can ever have living wages for enough of its population with a service sector economy. Most of the jobs added, after the loss of jobs are not living wage jobs, and many are part time jobs. And manufacturing is still moving out to slave labor so the banking cartel, wall street and MNCs can max out their profits, by exploiting the poor elsewhere, which they could not do here. That is the truth. If truth even matters anymore.

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                        • Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

                          And about quality schooling:

                          DC Schools: $29,349 Per Pupil, 83% Not Proficient in Reading


                          The public schools in Washington, D.C., spent $29,349 per pupil in the 2010-2011 school year, according to the latest data from National Center for Education Statistics, but in 2013 fully 83 percent of the eighth graders in these schools were not "proficient" in reading and 81 percent were not "proficient" in math.

                          http://cnsnews.com/commentary/terenc...icient-reading
                          Gosh. That figure is off the charts. Literally. Link:
                          According to National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), in 2012 the median value for U.S. school districts total expenditures per student was $11,770.

                          The variation is enormous. Per pupil spending which includes funding from federal, state, and local sources ranged from as little as $5,412 per pupil in Utah to as much as $20,226 per pupil in New York (City) in school year 2011-12.
                          http://www.data-first.org/data/what-...xpenditures-2/

                          Maybe your site is choosing a different NCES than my site. Or, perhaps, it is the year's difference; mine is a stat from 2012, while yours is the year ending 2011. Could be that DC really tightened up their budget in one year, going from 28 thou to just under 20 thou that NY spent per student.

                          Or maybe your link injected some BS into the numbers. If we are calculate best spending on education (arguably the most important investment in our future), we should keep the BS to a minimum.

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                          • Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                            I hear some right wing people make that claim, but those jobs are not in the south. And if they are anywhere, unless they are highly technical jobs, why are there still more unemployed, than available jobs? And this is using the cooked unemployment rate which is absurd. Real, actual unemployment is double digits. And if you include the people who can only find part time work, which is insufficient to meet living expenses, qualifying them for food stamps, it is higher double digits.

                            Remember, after the crash, when we were shedding 800,000 jobs per month, which went on for quite awhile, the right side were still hollering that these bums should go and get a job that did not exist. But, that has always been a knee jerk reaction from people who choose not to think, and just parrot what someone else says.

                            The problem in America now, is the quality of jobs, for we have a service sector economy. A good service sector economy job is part time work at walmart. That is what some people think is a good job. No, a good job is found in one of our few factories, which are still here. and this town is barely held together because of those few good living wage jobs. And its this way throughout the south which lost most of its manufacturing. No nation can ever have living wages for enough of its population with a service sector economy. Most of the jobs added, after the loss of jobs are not living wage jobs, and many are part time jobs. And manufacturing is still moving out to slave labor so the banking cartel, wall street and MNCs can max out their profits, by exploiting the poor elsewhere, which they could not do here. That is the truth. If truth even matters anymore.
                            Baring any catastrophic polar reversal events, I believe Alabama is still in the south. I am not sure why my friend is having such trouble filling $45K 40 hour per week positions requiring minimal physical labor and no education. Maybe his company is the anomaly.

                            Occasionally your comments highlight your generational views. The rightful way of the world requires the abundant availability of 'factory' jobs. A good union position where you begin with remedial work, learn your way up to more technical operations, someday after learning much a foreman or management position is offered - all the while able to afford the white picket fence with 2.3 children and a station wagon. Ironically Walmart - which apparently you hate - is the type of corporation that offers exactly what you expect. The fact that they do it in the retail sales industry instead of manufacturing and without a labor union pisses you off. But yes, you can get a job at Walmart straight out of high school and work your way up to a management position by the time you are ready to start a family. Its not automatic - you may need to work a bit harder than the majority of your coworkers to earn the management position. Luckily, the majority of your coworkers at entry level are working their way through college or single parents that cannot work full time or retirees earning supplemental income - so there will be little competition. I know people who have done this and now make more money then I do as a small business owner.

                            I am not denying all of the problems you mention exist. Too many part time positions, the loss of manufacturing jobs, and the abundance of low-pay service sector positions - are all issues that need to be dealt with. But this is not the end of the world. Motivated individuals of any color, religion, or sexual identity are finding good jobs or creating one of their own all around you on a daily basis - if you can only brush away the cloud of negativity long enough to see.

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                            • Originally posted by SupPackFan View Post
                              President Obama on his July 16th Weekly Address, referring to the conversations he had in Dallas earlier in the week:

                              Anyone who read the article linked in my OP may understand how incredibly frustrating I find comments like this. The article is about my experiences in 1987 during my freshman year College Writing 102 class. My professor insisted we needed more racial dialogue in this nation as a solution to racial inequities. Instead of following her lead I questioned the premise. I suggested we had already talked plenty about racial issues throughout the 1980s and the real path toward equality will be reached the day we stop obsessing over skin color.

                              She encouraged and even led my classmates in belittling my point of view . . . all the while suggesting I were the one with a closed mind. The irony apparently evaded them.

                              Here we are 30 years later with a twice elected African American as the leader of the free world and he still insists people who 'look differently' need to engage in more racial conversation. Perpetually encouraging people to discuss ethnic differences stereotypes in reality can never lead toward unity. It amazes me that I instinctively understood this reality prior to my eighteenth birthday that well educated Americans still cannot comprehend to this day.


                              No, Mr. President, we do not have to talk more about these things. The only reason you invite people who think differently than you do is so that you can belittle them and make them feel uncomfortable and that is the point. His comments remind me exactly why I never wanted to participate in this democrat indoctrination drill termed racial dialogue since long before I even identified as a conservative.
                              A sit down where BOTH sides LISTEN to the other, and actually try to understand where the other is coming from would have been helpful. But that is not what has happened or is happening with dialogue. Never have our current leaders encouraged the black community to try and understand where the police officers or white people are coming from. Instead Obama and Hillary defended one side spewing only their issue while not listening to the other and understanding where they themselves have gone wrong or what they too could do to reduce the conflict.

                              Obama added to his speech for the fallen officers in Dallas, words of what should be done to help resolve the conflict with the black community, yet not addressing the wrongs done in the Black community that has participated in creating the conflict.

                              But when he has spoken about Black people shot by police, I have NEVER heard him speak about what the black community too could do to prevent these conflicts. He didn't speak of the difficult situation Wilson was put in, in Ferguson. Even after Wilson was found innocent, he didn't speak of the struggles Police like Wilson have, when trying to protect communities.

                              A fair equal dialogue has never happened, nor has Obama or Hillary encouraged it. Liberals say dialogue as if we have to listen to each other, but don't participate in listening to one another. They only encourage and insist that the White and Police community listen to the Black community and accommodate them. Sounds like another BAD trade deal. Though this trade deal may seem like the Blacks got the better deal with no concessions, but Blacks, Whites, and Police are all losers. The winners are those who want to divide and conquer.

                              The Dialogue idea could have been good and productive, but now it's obsolete. It was never implemented as a dialogue. Could have worked had it been real, but it never has been. It's quite alarming how all citizens, Democrat and Independents with Republicans don't recognize the obvious.

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                              • The only racial divide we have in this nation is due to a false narrative put forth by race batters, and citizens being pumped up to believe Police and White people want to keep the Black Man down. We will always have racists on BOTH sides, but that is not the mass of the nation we live in today. The so called Dialogue has to stop. We need to stop defining each other. We have to stop giving grants because one is black or a minority. We have to stop filling out race on forms and applications. We have to stop claiming our country with a two time elected Black president, elected by more than half of the population is a country that wants to keep the Black man down. How does anyone believe racist people will vote for a black president? Twice!? If we must address race, we have to stop talking about why and what the black man can not do, and talk about what the black man CAN do.

                                Our media needs to stop defining race when the perpetrator is Black and the office is white, or perpetrator is white, especially before any information is uncovered that it is a racist attack. When a white person is killed, the media never seems to alert the public to the color of the perpetrator. Only when a black person is killed. Our leaders and media is race batting us all. We are all subjects of injustice and are being made fools of. We are all being encouraged to resent the other by the portrayal of events. Black people harmed just as much by it.

                                MLK's message to America is (We Are NOT Animals), we are equal human beings and must be recognized and treated EQUAL. The behavior of today's Black activists, protests turned into violent riots, and excessive criminal behavior in black communities, is telling America that (We ARE Animals). Leaders excusing this behavior is telling the nation that we should treat Black people as equals even though they behave like animals. This is a narrative also created by the choice of publications showing righteousness to violent activities and sympathizing with those who participate in crime and violence. MLK would be ashamed. Ashamed that the black people have allowed the white race batters and black one's as well, to encourage bad behavior in black communities and allow themselves to be represented by the criminals and violent human beings of color by sympathizing and defending them.

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