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Civil Wrongs

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  • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
    If they invested equally between students, went for long term results and segregate the dysfunctionals, I think they would get results. Failing to subsidize to an adequate level, instead they redistribute one fund (property tax?) between all students. That is lame, a variation of bad business practice in long term education objectives.

    Now Texas can continue to piss away $30k on each prisoner, instead of bumping up -per student- to 20k. That is one measure: How many stay out of jail due to an adequate education and employment? Could be saving the state multiples of 10k per year. That's good business, good management of society in the bargain.
    20 K per student is an insane amount to spend on education. The fact that they spend 10K per student in all districts and still have poor performing schools means it's not the amount of money spent, it's the lack of effort by the students.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • It gets good results in NY, in the top ten for high schools according to US News & World Report. Link:
      http://www.usnews.com/education/best...states-compare

      Spending large amounts per student is only one part of a package to achieve the objective, certainly not the only one, as Utah made the top ten as well. Going cheap on education is risky, which is the point made about the GOP's poor management of the issue. Instead of applying best school practices, the GOP tends to go cheap, since that proves their "gov't. is bad" claim. Otherwise, we would have seen the GOP cherry-picking GOP run states with excellent schools, and attempting to apply those lessons to below average schools. Why didn't the GOP use that strategy? Because it doesn't provide enuf evidence to "prove" that gov't. is bad, it provides too little justification to privatize education.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
        It gets good results in NY, in the top ten for high schools according to US News & World Report. Link:
        http://www.usnews.com/education/best...states-compare

        Spending large amounts per student is only one part of a package to achieve the objective, certainly not the only one, as Utah made the top ten as well. Going cheap on education is risky, which is the point made about the GOP's poor management of the issue. Instead of applying best school practices, the GOP tends to go cheap, since that proves their "gov't. is bad" claim. Otherwise, we would have seen the GOP cherry-picking GOP run states with excellent schools, and attempting to apply those lessons to below average schools. Why didn't the GOP use that strategy? Because it doesn't provide enuf evidence to "prove" that gov't. is bad, it provides too little justification to privatize education.
        My daughter attended a private school, graduating in 2001. It cost us $6000 a year to send her to that school and she got a first class high school education. It ain't the money. All that adding money to school budgets does is increase the bureaucracy and the sports programs.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Average cost for private school tuition is 20K/year. Link:
          http://privateschool.about.com/od/fi...ddle-Class.htm

          Your area is one of the lucky ones. Well below average. Perhaps your daughter's school did some head-hunting for top notch instructors burned out on the NYC experience? They took a significant pay cut to work a comfortable distance, away from the Rotten Apple? A wise move on the part of the school administration, despite my claim -that strategy is about as difficult to pull off as shooting fish in a barrel.

          Still, the GOP could use more realistic areas and cost/student, adding other conditions besides money. Utah, for example. A reasonable cost/student, and they have good results in their public school system. Their cost/student also compares to the cost for your daughter's education. Sure, public school education doesn't line the pockets of politicians looking for "career enhancement" from the private sector, but it helps students with low income.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

            20 K per student is an insane amount to spend on education. The fact that they spend 10K per student in all districts and still have poor performing schools means it's not the amount of money spent, it's the lack of effort by the students.
            And or the Teachers. Not all but some. Maybe many.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • PLEASE READ MY POST! This is real life. Not a hypothetical. I'm requesting suggestions while airing my anger for our desperate situation due to the redistribution of wealth in our country.

              So I've offered before that our family had gone through hard times. Job loss, almost losing our home etc. We got back on our feet. Together we now make decent enough salary to sustain a mortgage, pay our taxes, pay our bills, buy food and modest living supplies. Paid cash for everything for the last 8 years. Drained all our funds for a year before defaulting. Credit shot from the 2-3 year struggle we had. Barely making it now, but making it.

              So now we have our last child set to go to college in the fall. Her program is not offered at colleges where she could live at home as my eldest did, who is now finishing her masters with $55K loans to pay back. So my youngest needs to dorm. We only applied to state schools for a lower tuition. This lowest tuition available is $21K. So with our current salary and bad credit this is our situation:

              - No Grant for her because we make too much money.
              - $5,500 student gov't loan. ($2,500 unsubsidized, $3,000 subsidized, interest will accumulate on half).

              Now what to do? We spoke with financial aid office and they helped:

              - Gave her another 4K loan with interest accumulating.
              - Also gave her a stafford loan for $2,000
              - They gave her academic scholarship for $700.

              So we have $10K in loans. $10,700 to pay for her college.

              - Grandparent scraped up $4K for her.

              $21K - $14,700 = $5,300 that we have to come up with.

              - We do have $2K put aside for her books and things she needs to bring with her which is not included in the $21K.

              We applied for a parent loan for the $5,300. DENIED!

              Mind you, this is only for the first year. For the rest of the years our financial aid advisor said she will have to become an RA to help subsidize her attendance, which she is willing to do, but must apply and hope she gets the job.

              Because of our so called luxurious salary we pay close to max % taxes. Taxes, Family medical insurance, and Car insurance is a huge chunk of our income.

              I know many children that get grants due their parents low income or hidden income or even a simple divorce. Many children who qualify for no interest loans. And others that get a free ride. Now who's paying the taxes for the grants and free rides, who's getting the no interest loans, and who's going to college? And you wonder why I'm mad about the redistribution of wealth?

              So I have options to get my kid to college. None look good, but I will figure out a way.

              So my liberal friends or anyone here, do you think this design is fair? More importantly, do you have any suggestion?

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • The liberals don't think it's fair that's why they want tuition to be free for public college/university students for families making under $120K a year.
                Of course if you are paying near the top tax bracket...where's the money going?

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                  The liberals don't think it's fair that's why they want tuition to be free for public college/university students for families making under $120K a year.
                  Of course if you are paying near the top tax bracket...where's the money going?
                  If I were asked that question my answer would be, 'It's none of your $%&#% business where my money is going!

                  Just like you I am so sick and tired of the envy turned adolescent jealousy encouraged by the political left. I do not like the general idea of judging the necessity of others expenditures.

                  To msc I would add this . . . I also have a daughter attending her first year of college. We had no college fund. Normal expenses combined with all of her extra-curricular activities had us maxed out as it were. But she applied for every scholarship opportunity under the sun. An exemplary student involved in many things, she ringed up 8 different ones worth a total of $15K. 6 of which she will have a better than average shot at winning again for her sophomore year. Just thought I would offer a suggestion outside of politics. Apply, apply, apply. You would be surprised what all is available.
                  Last edited by SupPackFan; 07-26-2016, 07:28 AM.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Originally posted by SupPackFan View Post
                    If I were asked that question my answer would be, 'It's none of your $%&#% business where my money is going!
                    Simmer down, people shouldn't talk personnal fiances online and get offended when people ask questions about the persoal finances. In my book anyoe paying near the top of the tax rates is earning enough they don't have anything to whine about when paying the bills.

                    My daughter is going to college, she got a small grant and a loan, she's paying for other expenses and paying off the loan by working, she gets to live with us at no cost whie going to school.

                    Just like you I am so sick and tired of the envy turned adolescent jealousy encouraged by the political left. I do not like the general idea of judging the necessity of others expenditures.

                    To msc I would add this . . . I also have a daughter attending her first year of college. We had no college fund. Normal expenses combined with all of her extra-curricular activities had us maxed out as it were. But she applied for every scholarship opportunity under the sun. An exemplary student involved in many things, she ringed up 8 different ones worth a total of $15K. 6 of which she will have a better than average shot at winning again for her sophomore year. Just thought I would offer a suggestion outside of politics. Apply, apply, apply. You would be surprised what all is available.
                    Yup apply, apply, apply.
                    Last edited by JDJarvis; 07-26-2016, 09:18 AM.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                      The liberals don't think it's fair that's why they want tuition to be free for public college/university students for families making under $120K a year.
                      Of course if you are paying near the top tax bracket...where's the money going?
                      Mortgage, property tax, oil, electric, car insurance, medical insurance, healthcare visits, internet, cell phones, food, groceries, gasoline, water bill, vision care (not covered), dentist visits (no insurance), car maintenance, Just laid out $4K for a new oil tank. Underground piping leaked. EPA involved. What a mess.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post

                        Simmer down, people shouldn't talk personnal fiances online and get offended when people ask questions about the persoal finances. In my book anyoe paying near the top of the tax rates is earning enough they don't have anything to whine about when paying the bills.

                        My daughter is going to college, she got a small grant and a loan, she's paying for other expenses and paying off the loan by working, she gets to live with us at no cost whie going to school.



                        Yup apply, apply, apply.
                        Look, I'm not offended. I knew where I was going when I posted this. Frankly I don't really care if my round about finances are known. My pride is in my hard work, not in my bank account. Probably wouldn't have shared it with people who know me off the forum, but I have no problem sharing it here. Why not?

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • Originally posted by SupPackFan View Post
                          If I were asked that question my answer would be, 'It's none of your $%&#% business where my money is going!

                          Just like you I am so sick and tired of the envy turned adolescent jealousy encouraged by the political left. I do not like the general idea of judging the necessity of others expenditures.

                          To msc I would add this . . . I also have a daughter attending her first year of college. We had no college fund. Normal expenses combined with all of her extra-curricular activities had us maxed out as it were. But she applied for every scholarship opportunity under the sun. An exemplary student involved in many things, she ringed up 8 different ones worth a total of $15K. 6 of which she will have a better than average shot at winning again for her sophomore year. Just thought I would offer a suggestion outside of politics. Apply, apply, apply. You would be surprised what all is available.
                          I'm looking into the scholarships further, but it's too late for this year. She is a good student, but not a great student. Thanx for the advise!

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • Originally posted by msc View Post
                            PLEASE READ MY POST! This is real life. Not a hypothetical. I'm requesting suggestions while airing my anger for our desperate situation due to the redistribution of wealth in our country.
                            ....

                            So I have options to get my kid to college. None look good, but I will figure out a way.

                            So my liberal friends or anyone here, do you think this design is fair? More importantly, do you have any suggestion?
                            First of all, everyone who achieves a minimum grade average should have a chance to go to either a university or technical institute after high school. Your situation is not fair. No student at a public school should have to pay more than $5 per semester for tuition, nor less than $5. This pays the clerical fee to track the student. They shouldn't have to pay more than $100 for books and fees, the other cost of attending school. When the state picks up the rest, it audits the school on a regular basis to ensure costs are contained and standards are met.

                            People with higher incomes pay more in tax, which funds public institutions. The child of wealthy parents uses the same school resources as the child of poor parents, so charging them differently at that level is a moral hazard. As far as poor people not paying (federal) tax, that could be partially remedied by tax reform -as an amendment- with a fixed, minimal sales or VAT of less than 2%. This would make things a lot less complicated for individuals who fall outside the "magic zones" (athletic/academic full scholarship, or the more wealthy parents).

                            As far as your personal situation outside the magic zones, your child might consider not being a dependent for your tax purposes for a couple of years, if that is what is required to qualify for grants or other funding. The other option is working her way into a full-time employment position at the university, which will likely provide 2 or more classes per semester, no charge. Both options might delay her graduation. The private-sector option would be internship or like arrangement. If her grades and other resume points look strong and she demonstrates strong potential during a summer temp job, she could offer to work full time with the company picking up the costs of college. One of my nieces is using that strategy. Also delays graduation, but with a good match (employer/employee) it provides opportunity to work up to a good salary & position with some delay. Compared to another student who went full-steam, full time university (and has much less experience in the field), the intern might be in a better position 4 years in, even if their degree is delayed 2 years. Less loan debt, more experience, better connections sooner than the academic strategy. Disadvantage is delayed eligibility to advance into a position that first requires a degree. If the company is flexible, they might bend even that requirement to your daughter's advantage.

                            Lot of fire & hoops to jump thru, but that's going to be the case unless a non-profit entity controls costs, and provides education at subsidized cost to all qualified students. The alternative -bootstraps method- is proven to incur a lot of debt and/or much more delay in starting a career.

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                            • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                              First of all, everyone who achieves a minimum grade average should have a chance to go to either a university or technical institute after high school. Your situation is not fair. No student at a public school should have to pay more than $5 per semester for tuition, nor less than $5. This pays the clerical fee to track the student. They shouldn't have to pay more than $100 for books and fees, the other cost of attending school. When the state picks up the rest, it audits the school on a regular basis to ensure costs are contained and standards are met.

                              People with higher incomes pay more in tax, which funds public institutions. The child of wealthy parents uses the same school resources as the child of poor parents, so charging them differently at that level is a moral hazard. As far as poor people not paying (federal) tax, that could be partially remedied by tax reform -as an amendment- with a fixed, minimal sales or VAT of less than 2%. This would make things a lot less complicated for individuals who fall outside the "magic zones" (athletic/academic full scholarship, or the more wealthy parents).

                              As far as your personal situation outside the magic zones, your child might consider not being a dependent for your tax purposes for a couple of years, if that is what is required to qualify for grants or other funding. The other option is working her way into a full-time employment position at the university, which will likely provide 2 or more classes per semester, no charge. Both options might delay her graduation. The private-sector option would be internship or like arrangement. If her grades and other resume points look strong and she demonstrates strong potential during a summer temp job, she could offer to work full time with the company picking up the costs of college. One of my nieces is using that strategy. Also delays graduation, but with a good match (employer/employee) it provides opportunity to work up to a good salary & position with some delay. Compared to another student who went full-steam, full time university (and has much less experience in the field), the intern might be in a better position 4 years in, even if their degree is delayed 2 years. Less loan debt, more experience, better connections sooner than the academic strategy. Disadvantage is delayed eligibility to advance into a position that first requires a degree. If the company is flexible, they might bend even that requirement to your daughter's advantage.

                              Lot of fire & hoops to jump thru, but that's going to be the case unless a non-profit entity controls costs, and provides education at subsidized cost to all qualified students. The alternative -bootstraps method- is proven to incur a lot of debt and/or much more delay in starting a career.
                              You seem to live in a world of what should be and not what is. It's not just people with higher incomes who are not allowed to access these grants and loans. It's good old lower and middle class people. If you make anything above poverty level, you are cut out of these government programs. And, it's these government programs that encourage the cost of an indoctrination to continually escalate.

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                              • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                                First of all, everyone who achieves a minimum grade average should have a chance to go to either a university or technical institute after high school. Your situation is not fair. No student at a public school should have to pay more than $5 per semester for tuition, nor less than $5. This pays the clerical fee to track the student. They shouldn't have to pay more than $100 for books and fees, the other cost of attending school. When the state picks up the rest, it audits the school on a regular basis to ensure costs are contained and standards are met.

                                People with higher incomes pay more in tax, which funds public institutions. The child of wealthy parents uses the same school resources as the child of poor parents, so charging them differently at that level is a moral hazard. As far as poor people not paying (federal) tax, that could be partially remedied by tax reform -as an amendment- with a fixed, minimal sales or VAT of less than 2%. This would make things a lot less complicated for individuals who fall outside the "magic zones" (athletic/academic full scholarship, or the more wealthy parents).

                                As far as your personal situation outside the magic zones, your child might consider not being a dependent for your tax purposes for a couple of years, if that is what is required to qualify for grants or other funding. The other option is working her way into a full-time employment position at the university, which will likely provide 2 or more classes per semester, no charge. Both options might delay her graduation. The private-sector option would be internship or like arrangement. If her grades and other resume points look strong and she demonstrates strong potential during a summer temp job, she could offer to work full time with the company picking up the costs of college. One of my nieces is using that strategy. Also delays graduation, but with a good match (employer/employee) it provides opportunity to work up to a good salary & position with some delay. Compared to another student who went full-steam, full time university (and has much less experience in the field), the intern might be in a better position 4 years in, even if their degree is delayed 2 years. Less loan debt, more experience, better connections sooner than the academic strategy. Disadvantage is delayed eligibility to advance into a position that first requires a degree. If the company is flexible, they might bend even that requirement to your daughter's advantage.

                                Lot of fire & hoops to jump thru, but that's going to be the case unless a non-profit entity controls costs, and provides education at subsidized cost to all qualified students. The alternative -bootstraps method- is proven to incur a lot of debt and/or much more delay in starting a career.
                                Again I appreciate the advice. Those are the things that she will be looking into after the first year. She's already planning on getting a campus job this year for spending money. It's quite nerve racking to leave her college education up to possibilities that may or may not happen. Fact is that it is possible that she may only be there for 1 year. Unless I take drastic measures which will get her through college, but leave us in financial ruins. I will take one of those options if necessary.

                                The question is what am I willing to give up for my future to give my child a future? My answer is everything.

                                - We could lose one of our jobs. Default on mortgage and she will be guaranteed a college education.

                                - We could just stop paying the mortgage and put the money aside for her college education.

                                - We can get a divorce, that would help, but not enough.

                                - We can sell the house, but wouldn't be able to find a place for 5 to 6 people to live for less of what we pay in mortgage and property tax right now. This is due to the 40 year refinance we did with a bulk payment due at the end, to prevent our home from being foreclosed due to our past hardship.

                                We can't work any more or any harder than we already are, and there is nothing left to cut back on, yet it's not working. So our gov't does offer another way to have my child go to college. I would sacrifice myself, my future, my pride, and my reputation and become one of the indigent for her. The problem is that it's not just me. I have an 81 year old mother that lives with us, and my other 2 daughters that can not afford to live independently yet.

                                The reason why I'm sharing all of this is because we often talk in the hypothetical and speak of ideology, theory, and opinion. What I'm introducing is a real life situation that is a result of the way our country IS running. If you've come to trust my honesty, you'll think about this situation and the november election and what our gov't could do to resolve this issue for me and other hard working Americans in this situation, without encouraging us to become one of the poor to secure a better future for our children. Though this is my experience which is not the experiences of everyone, it is a real situation that many hard working Americans are facing. Americans that have done the right thing worked hard, took nothing from anyone always paying their own way. And this faction like myself exists. We are caught between the rich and the poor, where nothing is free for us, yet we are forced to pay to give opportunity to, and better the future for strangers while depriving our own children of the very luxuries we are forced to pay for, for others.

                                I'm not exactly seeing how free education would help our situation. First Bernie was the one offering it. Not Hillary. She wants to make it more affordable, but was clear that it would not be free for everyone. Additionally, what exactly is Hillary's proposal? Is it just for 2 years, like a free community college, that offers limited programs? And again, how would it be determined who gets it free or just lower cost? What is lower cost?

                                My support of conservative plans is because I would be able to afford college for my child on my own dime if we didn't have to pay such astronomical health insurance premiums with copays, and if my taxes were not as high. I want to send my child to a college that is best for her with good teachers and facilities, on my own dime, not for my child to go to designated colleges with no competition for excellence. Not a college like public schools that will not lose students if they are not producing.

                                I have a pretty good work ethic and have worked two jobs for most of my life. I am confident that if the gov't stopped dipping their hands into my bank account and redistributing my money, my family will get greater benefits than if the gov't makes the choice of what benefit I can get from the gov't with my contributed funds. With these redistributions, the benefits never seem to be distributed my way.

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