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Giving abortions should be illegal!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by msc View Post

    A law banning murder does not force anything upon anyone. The law is not responsible for an unwanted pregnancy. The law did not create the situation. Life would be forcing her to deal with the reality of life. Every human being is forced to deal with realities of life and all the obstacles along the way. It's not legitimate to say that people who do not help you deal with your obstacles are responsible for forcing something upon someone. Especially when were talking about exterminating another human life.

    Have you put yourself in the situation of the unborn child that death is being forced upon? There are two lives involved.
    Have you put yourself in the situation of a woman who becomes pregnant despite using contraception or a victim of rape or where they simply can't afford to look after a child?
    A law banning abortion is indeed forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy she may never have wanted and just saying "Deal with it" is hardly helpful.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #17
      Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post

      Have you put yourself in the situation of a woman who becomes pregnant despite using contraception or a victim of rape or where they simply can't afford to look after a child?
      A law banning abortion is indeed forcing a woman to go through a pregnancy she may never have wanted and just saying "Deal with it" is hardly helpful.
      Yes, if you read my post #9, you would know that I've put myself in both places.

      A law allowing abortion is indeed forcing a child to go through death that they never wanted, and just saying, "Deal with it" is hardly helpful. But in my scenario a person is taking action to force something upon someone, (Death). In your sincero no action is being taken to force something upon someone. Big difference.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #18
        So who is going to pay to house, feed, and educate all these unwated kids?

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #19
          Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
          So who is going to pay to house, feed, and educate all these unwated kids?
          Are you suggesting murder is a solution to economic problems? Why stop at a fetus?

          If it were illegal to preform abortions for another, there would be less unwanted pregnancy.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #20

            Originally posted by msc View Post

            Are you suggesting murder is a solution to economic problems? Why stop at a fetus?
            I'm not advocating murder as per current legal standards,it isn' t murder it is killing at worst. War is killing to solve economic problems by the way,you aren't going all peacenic on us are you?

            Originally posted by msc View Post
            If it were illegal to preform abortions for another, there would be less unwanted pregnancy.
            How can you imagine that is the case at all?

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #21
              Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
              So who is going to pay to house, feed, and educate all these unwated kids?
              Is there really that large a shortage of people looking to adopt children ?

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #22
                Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post

                I'm not advocating murder as per current legal standards,it isn' t murder it is killing at worst. War is killing to solve economic problems by the way,you aren't going all peacenic on us are you?



                How can you imagine that is the case at all?
                I happen to have a strong compulsion of empathizing with people. I've been told that I do this to a fault and should consider my feelings and my own life more often. I tried to explain in (post 9), that I was not repeating talking points of a pro life mantra. It took many decade of thought, calculating all kinds of reasoning, and learning, to come to a firm conclusion that Abortion is the greatest inhumanity and genocide against mankind. My post was heartfelt and compassionate when considering the lives of both humans involved in an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.

                And there is a difference between murdering an innocent person and self defence or war. War should not be fought for economic reasons. I agree with that. My faith/the word of God, is what makes me struggle with the righteous of killing in war, even when it's because of the only legitimate reason, being an active and imminent threat to innocent lives of the people in our country. A war to protect our sanctuary.

                But I'm discussing abortion in this thread, not based on any religious foundation. Speaking simply about our contradiction of law and science. And how the pieces of the puzzle don't fit together and the math doesn't add up.

                Killing innocents human beings is a crime + by all scientific measures life begins at fertilization = Abortion is legal?
                Last edited by msc; 10-20-2016, 04:33 AM.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #23
                  Originally posted by msc View Post

                  I'm just a person that has always anticipate the feelings of others. Many say it's to a fault. I picture being in the situations that I hear about and other situations that I can think of.
                  You are doing a really bad job of empathizing with a rape vicitm, dumb kids, or someone with extreme medical issues.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post

                    You are doing a really bad job of empathizing with a rape vicitm, dumb kids, or someone with extreme medical issues.
                    Why would you say that? Why is it impossible to believe that someone can empathize and fully understanding the hardship, yet still believe killing an innocent child is not an option to solve the problem at hand? A lack of money is a hardship, but stealing is not option to solve that problem. And killing an innocent is much worse than stealing. Certain things are just not an options to solve problems.

                    It is quite insane for the law to decide murdering, which is off the table in law, can get tossing back into law as an option to solve a problem.

                    Once I thought Rape should be an exception. I empathized with the woman raped and felt that it was fair because the rape was nothing she participated in and holds NO responsibility. But then I thought of the child. That's when I actually started to consider the other life at stake. Regardless of how it became to be a life, that innocent child of a rape is no different than child created from love or carelessness. Sure the emotions of the mother are different, but the child is still in the same situation as any other child. To strip that child of its human rights because of the sins of the father is still murdering an innocent human being. In our society our law rightfully does not blame someone for the acts of another. I thought of what this would mean to me as well in the same situation of rape. That's when I realized, "A life is a life, and an innocent child is a child regardless of how it was created. Options would be to raise it, or put it up for adoption. The 9 months is the burden that must be bared to respect the life of the other involved.

                    And when it comes to medical reasons, when both lives are at stake, it is a different situation. That is a situation where only 1 innocent life can be protected.
                    And mercy killing is also a situation. There are many different scenario's for that. And killing as a solution is not to do harm or disregard the life of a person. It is to protect that person from suffrage. I think that can be addressed based on individual circumstance, but not a blanket policy.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #25
                      So you think rape babies are the silver lining to rape. The notion you think that 9 month burden as you call it must be endured by a victim is repulsive as you clearly do not respect the life of the raped.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                        So you think rape babies are the silver lining to rape. The notion you think that 9 month burden as you call it must be endured by a victim is repulsive as you clearly do not respect the life of the raped.
                        No, I think a rape baby is not standardly a silver lining. I think for some it might be, but I couldn't attempt to say how many.

                        And Yes I do respect the life of the raped. Two lives at stake. With abortion, one lives and one dies. Without abortion, both live. Emotional trauma can not righteously Trump a life. There is no way to justify taking the life of one, to prevent the emotional trauma of another.

                        Now we also have the day after pill. Upon investigation of this drug, I learned that it does not kill an embryo, but it prevents fertilization. No life in developement. Abortion can be replaced with this pill in the case of rape. And if a person who voluntarily has sex, doesn't use a condom, doesn't use birth control, that person can at the very least step up to the plate to take the day after pill. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to get this pill at a clinic as easily as you can get an abortion.

                        And lets not forget that if all the prevention measures fail, no person has to raise and unwanted child. Giving it up for adoption is always available. And there is no circumstance where we should cater to a person that just doesn't want the child to exist. "I don't want it, but I don't want someone else to have it", "I'd rather my child be dead than having to know that someone else is raising it", "Just knowing that child exists is too much to bare." Some are understandable emotions, but accommodating displaced hate is not justified.

                        Still, have you thought about the life of the child? Have you even tried to sympathize?

                        If you want to argue that in embryonic stages, (the first 8 week), before the heart starts beating, before the nervous system developed and the baby can't feel pain yet, I could be persuaded to consider that reasoning on a scientific basis. But it makes no sense or logic to distinguish one human from another after the embryonic stage. After that stage the child is simply strengthening and growing. Even after a child is delivered the skull is still forming. You can argue a machine in not yet considered a machine until it's first turned on and the juice starts it pumping. When the heart starts beating and the juice starts pumping the child then is a child. We can talk about that. But there is no logical way to distinguish the life of a fetus human being from the life of a delivered human being after the heart is beating and the person feels pain.

                        If we at the very least illegalized abortion after the beating heart, eight weeks is plenty of time to prevent the existence of an unwanted child:
                        Condoms
                        Female birth control
                        Day after pill
                        +
                        Eight weeks to take care of what multiple unused or failed methods didn't accomplish.

                        With all these options, there is no reason why it's necessary to resort to the murder an undeniably human being. All the concerns of problematic issues you addressed, economic and emotional, should, could, and would not be a relevant.

                        If you, meaning a person, can't see and accept at the very least, a crime after 8 weeks, beating heart/nervous system, then that is a display of nothing but hypocrisy when claiming the title of a compassion and caring person. Relieving yourself of the responsibility of faithfully caring about ALL human beings and proudly caring about some selectively, is certainly everyone's right, but don't fool yourself or try to fool others. Accept and acknowledge who you are and are not. Who you are, I don't know, but who you are NOT, is a person of compassion that has respect for the life of your fellow man. You would not be someone who can righteously claim that you are superior in evolution and kindness above a person who actually has respect for human life and tries to protect the life of, and do no harm to the life of, EVERY human being. That person in fact is the one who possesses the superior wisdom that comes with evolution.
                        Last edited by msc; 10-22-2016, 06:12 AM.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #27
                          If you come back from vacation and discover a squatter in your house do you have the right to use a firearm to chase them out?

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                            If you come back from vacation and discover a squatter in your house do you have the right to use a firearm to chase them out?
                            The analogy of a squatter to a baby is repulsive. This is a left wing argument to try to try to remove guilt for something that everyone intuitively knows is wrong.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

                              The analogy of a squatter to a baby is repulsive. This is a left wing argument to try to try to remove guilt for something that everyone intuitively knows is wrong.
                              You are a broken record, as I am not a leftist and most certainly typed nothing to "remove guilt"

                              I've said it before and I'll sayit now:I am not a proponnent of abortion, it is most certainly the choice that kills, some people feel their health and liberty are worth killing for.

                              Anyone who claims a woman or girl shouldn't have a right to kill the parasite forced on her by a rapist has no concept of empathy, sympathy, or justice.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                                If you come back from vacation and discover a squatter in your house do you have the right to use a firearm to chase them out?
                                If you want to use that asinine analogy, A fetus is at their natural lawful residence. A squatter is not.

                                And NO, if a squatter is in your house, you DON'T have the moral or legal right to shoot that person if you don't believe you are in physical danger. Sure, I think it's just fine to threaten with a firearm and hope the squatter believes you'd actually shoot him, and runs out, but no, NO justification for actually harming their person. Boom. Your deplorable analogy holds no water.

                                However, if you want to shout really loud at the baby and tell them you have a scissor or clamps to rip them apart, or perhaps a needle to such the brains out of their skull, and hope they jump out, we can certainly allow that to be legal.

                                מה מכילות החדשות?

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