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If True, What to Do about MLK...

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  • If True, What to Do about MLK...

    Recent reporting is claiming that Martin Luther King Jr was not only guilty of adultery (long known), but that many of these affairs may have #METOOesque power imbalances, and most damning, that he allegedly was a cheerleading witness to a friend raping a parishoner.

    If the most damning of these allegations turn out to be true, what should this portend for national holidays, monuments, honors (i.e. schools named after him, etc...). Let's face it, MLK is currently one of only three people honored with a name-dedicated Federal holiday (Christ, Columbus, and MLK), if he not only stood silent, but cheered on an act of rape, is this acceptable?

    If true, and the tapes come out, I suspect there will be some uncomfortable moments for many in the media and our political establishment:
    • There will be appropriate (though irrelevant) condemnation of the fact that the FBI was engaged in covert surveillance of a U.S. citizen, though many of those who will condemn it will find themselves looking damn hypocritical given the reason for the surveillance was over concerns that MLK may have been co-opted by the Soviets and was being used by them as a tool to influence U.S. politics (sound familiar? Anyone, anyone?)
    • How many people on left will inadvertently (through correctly) refer to this surveillance as SPYING.
    • If a secularly-sainted hero of the left is so badly tainted by abhorrent and inexcusable acts, will that open the floodgates to others (i.e., FDR, rounding up and interring U.S. citizens).
    Thoughts?


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rishioner.html

  • #2
    Originally posted by Marcus1124 View Post
    Recent reporting is claiming that Martin Luther King Jr was not only guilty of adultery (long known), but that many of these affairs may have #METOOesque power imbalances, and most damning, that he allegedly was a cheerleading witness to a friend raping a parishoner.

    If the most damning of these allegations turn out to be true, what should this portend for national holidays, monuments, honors (i.e. schools named after him, etc...). Let's face it, MLK is currently one of only three people honored with a name-dedicated Federal holiday (Christ, Columbus, and MLK), if he not only stood silent, but cheered on an act of rape, is this acceptable?

    If true, and the tapes come out, I suspect there will be some uncomfortable moments for many in the media and our political establishment:
    • There will be appropriate (though irrelevant) condemnation of the fact that the FBI was engaged in covert surveillance of a U.S. citizen, though many of those who will condemn it will find themselves looking damn hypocritical given the reason for the surveillance was over concerns that MLK may have been co-opted by the Soviets and was being used by them as a tool to influence U.S. politics (sound familiar? Anyone, anyone?)
    • How many people on left will inadvertently (through correctly) refer to this surveillance as SPYING.
    • If a secularly-sainted hero of the left is so badly tainted by abhorrent and inexcusable acts, will that open the floodgates to others (i.e., FDR, rounding up and interring U.S. citizens).
    Thoughts?


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rishioner.html
    Aside from the rape charges, everyone (including lefties) accepts the other other allegations of adultery and the power imbalance in those affairs. The power imbalance adds to the problem of a "moral leader" that King presented, but was arguably the same abuse by every other public figure (left to right) in the history of adulterous affairs. It would be good to use conventional methods to test whether the rape charges are true or false. Supposing there is more than hearsay (tapes?), that would do the trick to prove it true, and start the process of disconnecting MLK's name from most public infrastructure. If not proven, it would be a good public exercise for the supporters of the rape allegations to scoop out a generous slice from a rhetorical shit pie and eat it on a public forum. Here's a sample of how that could be done, using prior feminist support of Bill Clinton, despite his power-imbalanced, adulterous affair inside the WH. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...sky-metoo.html

    Now, there is a solid argument from the righties that feminism waited far too long to put Bill's privates in the vice of honest reckoning, but they did come around eventually and took healthy bites out of that nasty slice of mea culpa. Will the right do the same, if those tapes "proving" MLK"s support of a rape turn out to be fiction?

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Originally posted by radcentr View Post
      Aside from the rape charges, everyone (including lefties) accepts the other other allegations of adultery and the power imbalance in those affairs. The power imbalance adds to the problem of a "moral leader" that King presented, but was arguably the same abuse by every other public figure (left to right) in the history of adulterous affairs. It would be good to use conventional methods to test whether the rape charges are true or false. Supposing there is more than hearsay (tapes?), that would do the trick to prove it true, and start the process of disconnecting MLK's name from most public infrastructure. If not proven, it would be a good public exercise for the supporters of the rape allegations to scoop out a generous slice from a rhetorical shit pie and eat it on a public forum. Here's a sample of how that could be done, using prior feminist support of Bill Clinton, despite his power-imbalanced, adulterous affair inside the WH. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...sky-metoo.html

      Now, there is a solid argument from the righties that feminism waited far too long to put Bill's privates in the vice of honest reckoning, but they did come around eventually and took healthy bites out of that nasty slice of mea culpa. Will the right do the same, if those tapes "proving" MLK"s support of a rape turn out to be fiction?
      Even if they turned out to be true, do we honestly think the man will all of a sudden lose all recognition an "honor" ?

      People don't easily give up the traditions they've practiced all their lives. Traditions mostly based ONLY on "everyone else does it."... most of what we do in America

      MLK and the story we all know ... has become a tradition has it not ? There's even a holiday LOL

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

        Even if they turned out to be true, do we honestly think the man will all of a sudden lose all recognition an "honor" ?

        People don't easily give up the traditions they've practiced all their lives. Traditions mostly based ONLY on "everyone else does it."... most of what we do in America

        MLK and the story we all know ... has become a tradition has it not ? There's even a holiday LOL
        No, if the rape "cheerleader" allegation proves true, I'd definitely support removing his name from most public works. The adultery stuff is embarrassing, but doesn't rise to the level of erasing names from public infrastructure nationwide IMO. Of course, comparing this to the confederate statues and named streets in the south, it could be said that the US has a long tradition of cherry-picking the accomplishments while ignoring the sketchy side of their chosen heroes. No reason to believe the left is somehow immune to this ailment.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Originally posted by radcentr View Post
          No, if the rape "cheerleader" allegation proves true, I'd definitely support removing his name from most public works.
          It will never be proven true.

          Originally posted by radcentr View Post
          The adultery stuff is embarrassing, but doesn't rise to the level of erasing names from public infrastructure nationwide IMO. Of course, comparing this to the confederate statues and named streets in the south, it could be said that the US has a long tradition of cherry-picking the accomplishments while ignoring the sketchy side of their chosen heroes. No reason to believe the left is somehow immune to this ailment.
          I agree.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            I thought the issue of what to do about MLK was settled in 1968. When are southern Republicans going to start erecting statues of James Earl Ray?

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Originally posted by redrover View Post
              I thought the issue of what to do about MLK was settled in 1968.
              I thought it was too.

              I think it's fair to wonder, why is this stuff coming up NOW ?? Were these things not known in 1968 ? How were they not known then, but are NOW known ?

              It think these are important questions.

              Originally posted by redrover View Post
              When are southern Republicans going to start erecting statues of James Earl Ray?
              Why erect ANY statues of ANYONE ?

              Someone will demand they be removed in the future.

              We're now anti-statue LOL

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                I thought it was too.

                I think it's fair to wonder, why is this stuff coming up NOW ?? Were these things not known in 1968 ? How were they not known then, but are NOW known ?

                It think these are important questions.



                Why erect ANY statues of ANYONE ?

                Someone will demand they be removed in the future.

                We're now anti-statue LOL
                The allegations of sexual misconduct are coming up now because adulterous behavior used to be more tolerated by the public, at least when it came to figures in powerful positions. If it was known then, but was generally accepted as being "part of the game", it was easier to sweep it under the rug. The other reason it comes up with MLK is because his persona is on the chess board of the "more & better morals" game. Lefties and righties battling over which side has "more 'n better"morals.

                We're doing this, instead of going after people who are at least still alive, or better yet, still in positions of power, but act immorally. That should be first on the list, while "more 'n better" morals game for historical (read, "long dead") figures should be played during the slower summer months. Lets go beyond the woulda coulda shoulda angle...

                I like the point brought up by RR on the year 1968. The issues that were central to MLK's civil rights movement then are not altogether resolved now; in particular the laws developed to counter genetic (aka"cooties") discrimination in essential categories like public services or employment. There exist today righty opinions that MLK was a "professional victim", as if the civil rights laws passed back then suddenly resolved the bad behavior that made those laws necessary. On the left, there is too little emphasis on MLK's discipline and leadership on the most complicated aspect of the civil rights movement -passive resistance. Passive resistance (civil disobedience) is arguably the first and by far most important strategy to break down decayed legal and social institutions like widespread racism. Violent protest is simply and effectively used by the old order to defend the rot, while passive resistance forces the majority of people to witness the state's naked defense of what is indefensible. Where is MLK's discipline now, when antifa or similar movements needs to root out the anarchists who insist on "participating" (looting) in their protests?

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                  The allegations of sexual misconduct are coming up now because adulterous behavior used to be more tolerated by the public, at least when it came to figures in powerful positions. If it was known then, but was generally accepted as being "part of the game", it was easier to sweep it under the rug. The other reason it comes up with MLK is because his persona is on the chess board of the "more & better morals" game. Lefties and righties battling over which side has "more 'n better"morals.

                  We're doing this, instead of going after people who are at least still alive, or better yet, still in positions of power, but act immorally. That should be first on the list, while "more 'n better" morals game for historical (read, "long dead") figures should be played during the slower summer months. Lets go beyond the woulda coulda shoulda angle...

                  I like the point brought up by RR on the year 1968. The issues that were central to MLK's civil rights movement then are not altogether resolved now; in particular the laws developed to counter genetic (aka"cooties") discrimination in essential categories like public services or employment. There exist today righty opinions that MLK was a "professional victim", as if the civil rights laws passed back then suddenly resolved the bad behavior that made those laws necessary. On the left, there is too little emphasis on MLK's discipline and leadership on the most complicated aspect of the civil rights movement -passive resistance. Passive resistance (civil disobedience) is arguably the first and by far most important strategy to break down decayed legal and social institutions like widespread racism. Violent protest is simply and effectively used by the old order to defend the rot, while passive resistance forces the majority of people to witness the state's naked defense of what is indefensible. Where is MLK's discipline now, when antifa or similar movements needs to root out the anarchists who insist on "participating" (looting) in their protests?
                  All very good points.

                  It's funny how all sides like to claim the "more 'n better"morals" as they sin as much as everyone else.

                  Hypocrisy I think is something all should admit to. .. of course that's a dream LOL

                  ...all sides act holier than thou and think they're acting better than ... each other - generally making the human race look entirely silly.

                  Just finished a very good book called The Quiet Game by Greg Iles that covers some of these subjects very well. .. even government corruption from the FBI on up to the very top - president.

                  A quote;

                  "In small towns there are sometimes truths that everyone knows but no one mentions. Open secrets, if you will.
                  No one really wants to probe the details, because it forces us to face too many uncomfortable realities.
                  We'd rather turn away than acknowledge the primitive forces working beneath the surface of society."
                  - The Quiet Game, G.I.

                  It's fiction but an outstanding read.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                    All very good points.

                    It's funny how all sides like to claim the "more 'n better"morals" as they sin as much as everyone else.

                    Hypocrisy I think is something all should admit to. .. of course that's a dream LOL

                    ...all sides act holier than thou and think they're acting better than ... each other - generally making the human race look entirely silly.

                    Just finished a very good book called The Quiet Game by Greg Iles that covers some of these subjects very well. .. even government corruption from the FBI on up to the very top - president.

                    A quote;

                    "In small towns there are sometimes truths that everyone knows but no one mentions. Open secrets, if you will.
                    No one really wants to probe the details, because it forces us to face too many uncomfortable realities.
                    We'd rather turn away than acknowledge the primitive forces working beneath the surface of society."
                    - The Quiet Game, G.I.

                    It's fiction but an outstanding read.
                    Amazon gives it good reviews. I don't read a lot of fiction but I did read Down where the Crawdads Sing, Check it out.https://www.amazon.com/Where-Crawdads-Sing-Delia-Owens/dp/0735219095/ref=asc_df_0735219095/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid={creative}&hvpos={adpositio n}&hvnetw=o&hvrand={random}&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt= e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl={devicemodel}&hvlocint=&hvlocph y=&hvtargid=pla-4583589102168834&psc=1

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                    • #11
                      Yes, The Quiet Game is a great book

                      It's 19 or 20 years old, so can be found on Amazon for cheap as paperback

                      I think YOU would enjoy it a lot.

                      It has all of the racist stuff you endlessly think every one is guilty of, some still ARE I know.

                      The setting is a small town in Alabama LOL - Go figure LOL

                      But it's one of those books I thought a movie had been made of.

                      I think it WOULD make a good one. Give it a read and see what you think

                      The crawdads book looks interesting. Didn't get the best reviews and I have a stack of about 50 or more books to read - our local library had a book giveaway to make room for new inventory awhile ago, I picked up a LOT LOL

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                        Yes, The Quiet Game is a great book

                        It's 19 or 20 years old, so can be found on Amazon for cheap as paperback

                        I think YOU would enjoy it a lot.

                        It has all of the racist stuff you endlessly think every one is guilty of, some still ARE I know.

                        The setting is a small town in Alabama LOL - Go figure LOL

                        But it's one of those books I thought a movie had been made of.

                        I think it WOULD make a good one. Give it a read and see what you think

                        The crawdads book looks interesting. Didn't get the best reviews and I have a stack of about 50 or more books to read - our local library had a book giveaway to make room for new inventory awhile ago, I picked up a LOT LOL
                        I couldn't believe that Crawdad got bad reviews. I know it was on the NY Times best seller list and 86% of Amazon customers gave it five stars which is the highest rating. Maybe it might be an idea to open a forum where we could discuss books of all kinds.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by redrover View Post

                          I couldn't believe that Crawdad got bad reviews. I know it was on the NY Times best seller list and 86% of Amazon customers gave it five stars which is the highest rating. Maybe it might be an idea to open a forum where we could discuss books of all kinds.
                          Maybe thread in off topics on book reviews might generate some interest, try it out

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