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No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

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  • #46
    Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

    Originally posted by RDK View Post
    Why do you hate the US Constitution and the guarantees of liberty and due process that it grants all people in the US?
    Another example of a hateful liberal statement. I do not hate our constitution. There is nothing in the Constitution about Miranda.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #47
      Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

      Originally posted by RDK View Post
      There is a good chance that this will come back and bite the administration in the ass.

      By not reading a suspect his Miranda Rights, that does not mean that he does not have them. What it means is that if he says anything that he has voluntary waved his right to remain silent and what he says can be used against him in a court of law.

      I see the day whjen the court will throw out this citizens conviction because the administration to make political points decided to not read him his rights and anything that he says will become inadmissible in court.
      Your crystal ball is defective. The public safety exception to Miranda is well established. Since the suspect was, in fact, read his Miranda rights before the time tolled in the exception, the prosecution should proceed without an issue.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #48
        Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

        MattInFla
        Your crystal ball is defective. The public safety exception to Miranda is well established. Since the suspect was, in fact, read his Miranda rights before the time tolled in the exception, the prosecution should proceed without an issue.
        This is the problem with liberals rewritting the Constitution as they go along. There is no need for a "public safety exception" to Miranda because Miranda is a made up rule by left-wing jurists with absoltely no basis in the Constitution to begin with.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #49
          Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

          Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
          The point that it seems you are missing is that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence against Dzhokhar, and that regardless of what he said during questioning before being Mirandized will have no impact on returning a guilty verdict, but could have significant impact on rounding up other consirators as well as preventing another bomb attack.

          If I read your post properly, it would seem that you'd rather expose the innocent victims of the public at large to another bomb attack, as well as forgo capturing additional conspirators before they could set off another potential bomb attack, by immediately Mirandizing terrorist suspects. I question if that's a good decision or not.

          I think the public safety exception is there for a reason, and it's a good reason. it allows the government to fulfill it's primary responsibility, which is to protect the public, does it not?
          As long as you realize that the US constitutional protections against self incrimination apply and that statements made by an accused cannot be used against him unless he is first made to understand his rights.

          BTW did you ever think that a American youth, raised on cop shows, cannot recite the Miranda warnings from hearing it on TV so many times.

          If it is a strategic decision made by the authorities that they are willing to risk being able to use his statements against him in return for getting the information to prevent further events like the Boston bombings than I'm OK with it.

          What I oppose is the feeling from the right that just because someone is accused of terrorist activities that they lose all rights under the US Constitution.

          I think that the decision was made not to read the rights was made so that they could make the argument later that he was not a civilian criminal but an enemy combatant (hard to make that case on a US citizen) and therefore not entitled to Constitutional protections ( which is false reasoning anyway as Constitutional protections apply to everyone in US jurisdiction citizens, non citizens and enemy combatants alike, that is why Gitmo prison is not in the USA, the Bush administration made the argument that they were not in the US and therefore not protected by the US constitution.)

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #50
            Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

            Originally posted by RDK View Post
            As long as you realize that the US constitutional protections against self incrimination apply and that statements made by an accused cannot be used against him unless he is first made to understand his rights.

            BTW did you ever think that a American youth, raised on cop shows, cannot recite the Miranda warnings from hearing it on TV so many times.

            If it is a strategic decision made by the authorities that they are willing to risk being able to use his statements against him in return for getting the information to prevent further events like the Boston bombings than I'm OK with it.

            What I oppose is the feeling from the right that just because someone is accused of terrorist activities that they lose all rights under the US Constitution.

            I think that the decision was made not to read the rights was made so that they could make the argument later that he was not a civilian criminal but an enemy combatant (hard to make that case on a US citizen) and therefore not entitled to Constitutional protections ( which is false reasoning anyway as Constitutional protections apply to everyone in US jurisdiction citizens, non citizens and enemy combatants alike, that is why Gitmo prison is not in the USA, the Bush administration made the argument that they were not in the US and therefore not protected by the US constitution.)
            Your whole premise here - that the "right" favors these things (implying that the "left" opposes them) is flawed. You might note that it was a Democratic President who codified indefinite detention, and it was that same Democratic President who ordered the extrajudicial execution of an American citizen via a drone strike.

            But by all means, pretend that it is the "right"......

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #51
              Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

              Originally posted by RDK View Post
              Why do you hate the US Constitution and the guarantees of liberty and due process that it grants all people in the US?
              The Costitution does not grant the reading of "Miranda rights."

              Originally posted by RDK View Post
              There is a good chance that this will come back and bite the administration in the ass.

              By not reading a suspect his Miranda Rights, that does not mean that he does not have them. What it means is that if he says anything that he has voluntary waved his right to remain silent and what he says can be used against him in a court of law.

              I see the day whjen the court will throw out this citizens conviction because the administration to make political points decided to not read him his rights and anything that he says will become inadmissible in court.
              It means the court won't consider a confession voluntarily given. I don't think they need a confession to convict this character though.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #52
                Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

                Originally posted by RDK View Post
                As long as you realize that the US constitutional protections against self incrimination apply
                They do.

                and that statements made by an accused cannot be used against him unless he is first made to understand his rights.
                There is no such requirement in the fifth amendment. You have the right to remain silent (to not make statements against yourself). The fifth amendment does not guarantee that you be educated on that right and does not provide penalty for failure to educate. Further, the statements of the accused can be used against him, even without reading Miranda, if they are made prior to arrest.

                BTW did you ever think that a American youth, raised on cop shows, cannot recite the Miranda warnings from hearing it on TV so many times.

                If it is a strategic decision made by the authorities that they are willing to risk being able to use his statements against him in return for getting the information to prevent further events like the Boston bombings than I'm OK with it.

                What I oppose is the feeling from the right that just because someone is accused of terrorist activities that they lose all rights under the US Constitution.
                Once again, the fifth amendment contains nothing about Miranda.

                I think that the decision was made not to read the rights was made so that they could make the argument later that he was not a civilian criminal but an enemy combatant (hard to make that case on a US citizen) and therefore not entitled to Constitutional protections ( which is false reasoning anyway as Constitutional protections apply to everyone in US jurisdiction citizens, non citizens and enemy combatants alike, that is why Gitmo prison is not in the USA, the Bush administration made the argument that they were not in the US and therefore not protected by the US constitution.)
                I still don't see what it has to do with the fifth amendment in the constitution.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #53
                  Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

                  The Fifth Amendment only bars being compelled to be a witness against themselves. And for most of our history, it was not understood--when violated--to require the exclusion of the evidence resulting from any statements in criminal proceedings. Rather, the recourse for someone whose right was violated was to pursue civil sanctions against the individual(s) who violated their rights, to be adjudicated by a jury.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #54
                    Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

                    Originally posted by Slon View Post
                    ...There is no such requirement in the fifth amendment. You have the right to remain silent (to not make statements against yourself). The fifth amendment does not guarantee that you be educated on that right and does not provide penalty for failure to educate. Further, the statements of the accused can be used against him, even without reading Miranda, if they are made prior to arrest.Once again, the fifth amendment contains nothing about Miranda.

                    ....
                    The requiuremsnt is due to the Supreme Court ruling that a prson cannot waive his 5th amendment rights without being knowledgable about what the rights are hence the Miranda Warnings.

                    Miranda was a petty thief whose statements were first thrown out of court because he did not know his rights. The case made it to the Supreme Court and the warnings became the legal way to allow self incriminating statements to be admissible in court.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #55
                      Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

                      Originally posted by Marcus1124 View Post
                      The Fifth Amendment only bars being compelled to be a witness against themselves. And for most of our history, it was not understood--when violated--to require the exclusion of the evidence resulting from any statements in criminal proceedings. Rather, the recourse for someone whose right was violated was to pursue civil sanctions against the individual(s) who violated their rights, to be adjudicated by a jury.
                      True but that was changed, for the better IMHO, with the Miranda Decision.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #56
                        Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

                        Originally posted by RDK View Post
                        True but that was changed, for the better IMHO, with the Miranda Decision.
                        The Miranda decision did not alter the Constitution, it simply made a ruling as to how it should be interpreted. In this case, it was a strategic decision not to read him his rights as they believed they had sufficient evidence to prosecute him without any statement by him and that getting him to talk would be better in the long run.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #57
                          Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

                          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                          The Miranda decision did not alter the Constitution, it simply made a ruling as to how it should be interpreted. In this case, it was a strategic decision not to read him his rights as they believed they had sufficient evidence to prosecute him without any statement by him and that getting him to talk would be better in the long run.
                          As I posted previously, I have no issue with a strategic decision being made that more information could be gathered that could save lives at the risk of not having his statements as evidence against him later.

                          However as I also stated I don't believe that that was the reason why the warnings were not read to him. I believe that it was a political decision made to be able to at some later point deny him his constutitional rights and call him an enemy combatant and allow the government to claim that they could hold him indefinitely without trial, right to council, right to self incriminate, assumption of innocence and the other constitutional protections he has but may have taken away from him.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #58
                            Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

                            To kind of bring this back to subject related to Dzhokhar, we messed up here huge. It has most to do with the timing of the decision to treat him as an enemy combatant, or someone under arrest for a crime. If the intention all along was to try him in the US courts, he should have been read his Miranda rights the moment he woke up. In other hands he would have been kept an enemy combatant. That is the core problem, the political ideology of division these days up on the hill kept this from being handled with consistency. Personally, if we are willing to kill people around the globe with drone strikes (which includes Americans without trial) then we should have declared day one what we were going to do with him one way or the other. But we didn't... so he talked for a while, was read rights later and lawyer'ed up. Which should shock no one.

                            My question to the group, should we even have an "enemy combatant" exclusion if we apply that with more political distinction than in the name of justice distinction?

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #59
                              Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

                              Miranda is was created in 1966.... It is not in thew constitution.... Like the so called right to kill babies it was law made from the bench.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?


                              • #60
                                Re: No reading of Miranda rights for Dzhokhar

                                Originally posted by thanatos144 View Post
                                Miranda is was created in 1966.... It is not in thew constitution.... Like the so called right to kill babies it was law made from the bench.
                                Both are interperations of the application of the constutition made by the body that is named in the Constitution to make these decisions.

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