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Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

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  • Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

    A federal judge has ruled that Google must comply with the FBI's warrantless requests for confidential user data, despite the search company's arguments that the secret demands are illegal.

    CNET has learned that U.S. District Judge Susan Illston in San Francisco rejected Google's request to modify or throw out 19 so-called National Security Letters, a warrantless electronic data-gathering technique used by the FBI that does not need a judge's approval. Her ruling came after a pair of top FBI officials, including an assistant director, submitted classified affidavits.

    The litigation taking place behind closed doors in Illston's courtroom -- a closed-to-the-public hearing was held on May 10 -- could set new ground rules curbing the FBI's warrantless access to information that Internet and other companies hold on behalf of their users. The FBI issued 192,499 of the demands from 2003 to 2006, and 97 percent of NSLs include a mandatory gag order.

    Judge orders Google to comply with FBI's secret NSL demands | Politics and Law - CNET News
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    Such lofty goals, such poetic words. Too bad they no longer mean a damn thing in the United States of America. Both Bush and Obama, in concert with Congressmembers of both parties, have conducted a decade long gang rape of the Constitution. We might as well sell the Constitution on eBay - since we're no longer using it, we might as well find someone who wants it.

    This is how Liberty dies - behind closed doors, with a classification stamp, in the name of "safety". As Ben Franklin once noted "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

    Well, folks, we are the "they" now, and we deserve neither the Liberty we have allowed to be taken, nor the illusory "safety" we've gotten in return.

    What I wanted to say here was fuck Bush and Obama for this travesty, but that would be unfair. It would be unfair because we, the People, have sat back and allowed this.

    So in fairness, I can only say this: fuck us - all of us - for allowing the country to go down this road.

  • #2
    Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

    Speak for yourself. That is, fuck yourself....wait, that didn't come out right!

    What I meant was, do as I did and vote against every incumbent next time, with most of my votes going against the two parties.

    That Bill of Rights that some say we never needed, is worthless today. After all. it's just words written on paper.

    This country just gives the illusion of freedom. The People could change it, but they won't. Everyone is too self involved with their own pursuit of pleasure, and can't get their heads out of these new fangled gadgets like smart phones and pcs. High tech zombies don't have time to notice what is going on, and then even care about it.

    There is a mountain of anti constitutional things that go on incessantly, the new additions created by this so called war on terror. When you call it a war on terror, this guarantees that on this war footing which will last forever, the constitution gets pissed on. We always lose rights temporarily in wars, like ww2, but those wars were short termed. How long we been fighting this war on terror? And when will it end? Never. And with each new attack, even failed ones, the People get to experience what it is like to live in tyranny. And it seems to get worse and worse.

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    • #3
      Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

      Originally posted by MattInFla View Post
      ....

      This is how Liberty dies - behind closed doors, with a classification stamp, in the name of "safety". .....
      I happen to agree, the Constitution says what it says. While there is room for some disagreement what the words actually mean in practice the 4th is very clear.

      One of the greatest strengths of the US Constitution and one I believe is rare if not unique, is that it does not allow itself to be set aside during times deemed by a government to be a time of crisis.

      Here in Canada we have the so called not withstanding clause which allows the government to pass a law that would be otherwise unconstitutional providing they pass it in accordance with the not withstanding clause and it has a sunset date of 5 years when it either lapses or as to be re-passed. IMHO the worst part of our otherwise not to bad a Constitution.

      However the US Constitution is not an al a carte document. It says for example that there can be no state sponsorship of any religion and that means no state or school board support for any religion. It says right of people to bear arms shall not be infringed but there are many laws on the books that restrict that right. (That I believe that the 2nd amendment should be changed is another issue.) It says that all persons inside the jurisdiction of the US are under the protection of the Constitution and that cannot be set aside in times of crisis or for expediency in things like questioning a suspect.

      I could go on but you get the point. The US Constitution is an all or nothing document.

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      • #4
        Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

        This noble experiment. These United States. Seems more and more likely that it's circling the drain, values, liberties, government, public debt. Yeah. Circling the drain.

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        • #5
          Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

          Welcome to the next evolution of our Totalitarianism and Police State. With such a rich background of dancing around the 4th Amendment with items such as the Patriot Act for example it is just a matter of time before the entire amendment is basically voided from the bench. Slowly chipped away at 2nd Amendment style.

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          • #6
            Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

            Originally posted by MattInFla View Post
            Such lofty goals, such poetic words. Too bad they no longer mean a damn thing in the United States of America. Both Bush and Obama, in concert with Congressmembers of both parties, have conducted a decade long gang rape of the Constitution.
            I do appreciate you see this as a bi-partisan issue, not one of Obama just shredding everything to pieces and whilst troubling i don't think we're all totally screwed. I'll give Bush a big of a free pass that after the 9/11 attacks he had to pass through legislation and some of it was bad, due to the urgent nature of stopping further attacks. A lot of the Patriot act and new FISA legislation is too intrusive, not legally sound and does probably need to be re-worded and fixed by Congress but it is not a total loss IMO and a lot of it could be rectified by Congress. Some of it is good / worth keeping onto and is helpful to those who seek to make law enforcement more able to do the work of keeping the nation safe.

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            • #7
              Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

              At this point it might be easier to just list the Amendments that still mean something... who wants to start?

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              • #8
                Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

                17th.

                God knows the Government uses and abuses the 16th to all effects it can.

                But in general yes, i totally agree...looking at the 14th for example. The whole thing has totally been screwed up and abused /misused etc. Now it has turned into an abortion rights movement.

                Some have value / reason (such as prohibition and repeal there of / term limits for Presidents etc) but as the constitution continues to develop ( i am using that word as opposed to "Breathing / living" so conservatives won't eat me alive), so will some of the interpretations / definitions etc. I can understand some of the (basic) need to look at what the literal interpretation of parts of the 4th are. Now in regards to the literal example pf this scenario, the clauses couldn't interpret online seizures / correspondence etc, as obviously it didn't exist back then.

                That does need to be addressed, though generally through legislative processes, not what even conservatives (such as even Matt) would see as legislating from the bench.

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                • #9
                  Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

                  Well there's no first amendment because of the gag order part of the NSL. There's no second amendment because buying a gun is much harder, due to laws, than buying just about anything else that is NOT specifically protected by an amendment. The fourth is gone, obviously. The sixth? Guantanamo, anyone?

                  The Constitution is a joke. Nobody follows it.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

                    And it just keeps getting worse:

                    Report: Court order forces Verizon to turn over records of millions - CNN.com

                    These secret spying programs are out of control.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

                      Originally posted by MattInFla View Post
                      And it just keeps getting worse:

                      Report: Court order forces Verizon to turn over records of millions - CNN.com

                      These secret spying programs are out of control.

                      and i have posters on here saying my signature is trumped up politics.... this administration is making bush look like a an amateur

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                      • #12
                        Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

                        Lads,

                        Quick Questions: How many lives did the Patriot Act save? A few details would help...

                        How much did the whole thing cost?

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                        • #13
                          Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

                          Originally posted by MattInFla View Post
                          And it just keeps getting worse:

                          Report: Court order forces Verizon to turn over records of millions - CNN.com

                          These secret spying programs are out of control.
                          I just saw this (it's here as well).

                          That's truly disturbing. They're demanding data on all Verizon customers, without needing any suspicion that they even might be engaged in illegal activity, and without it being part of any on-going investigation.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

                            I strongly doubt this was just Verizon. The other carriers cannot confirm or deny handing over the same data, since disclosure of receipt of one of these orders is a felony.

                            We should just drop all pretense of a right to privacy under the Fourth Amendment. The Amendment was effectively repealed in 2001, and that repeal has been continued (and expanded) under the current administration.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Fourth Amendment? We don't heed no stinking Fourth Amendment!

                              Originally posted by Slon View Post
                              Well there's no first amendment because of the gag order part of the NSL. There's no second amendment because buying a gun is much harder, due to laws, than buying just about anything else that is NOT specifically protected by an amendment. The fourth is gone, obviously. The sixth? Guantanamo, anyone?

                              The Constitution is a joke. Nobody follows it.
                              The constitution tries to get in the way of men who lusted for power and got that power, but it ain't got a chance in hell, as proven already. That document stands in the way of men exercising their power, so they spend their time getting around it, or pissing on it. What good is having that power if you cannot use it? That is how they think, IMO.

                              One thing is certain, men who want and get power get no gratification at all if they cannot rule over others. So, they rule over others, even injecting themselves into the daily existence of common americans.

                              Think about it. What we have seen over time are these men exercising this power they demand to have. And they give themselves more power. Each time they do, americans lose some more rights we once had.

                              We have even militarized our police, and they look like special forces as they kick down doors and wage war on the American people. If you get stopped for a traffic infraction, they search you and your car like a bunch of Nazi thugs. And they even look the part these days. Power. Power over others. They stay intoxicated on it, and must have more and more of it.

                              The intent of the founding documents was to try and steer us away from what is a commonality in the history of humanity. And it didn't work. All you need is time for that commonality to once again manifest itself. How can anyone say anything to the contrary? Given what has transpired since Nixon? That seems to be the origination of the turning point for America, if you lived through it.

                              And while I tend to blame the repubs more, both parties are up to their ears in this. If you get someone like Dr. Paul that points this out, he is termed the crazy uncle. In all seriousness, we are screwed, as it only gets worse regardless who is in the WH. And I have a reason to feel the way I do. A healthy brain would feel the same.

                              I will do my part for the time I have left. I will vote against every incumbent unless they were one of the dems or repubs that voted against this latest treason committed upon the people and their constitution. As I did in the last election. So now I gotta check to see how my folks from my state voted on this issue. I already know they voted in favor of it though, but I will check to make sure.

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