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7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

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  • 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

    I happened across this article this morning, and I thought I'd share it as it raises some very interesting ideas.

    I especially think point 5 is relevant to this discussion http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/huma...ml#post2173449.

    Murray Lipp: 7 Ways the U.S.A. Benefits From the Legalization of Gay Marriage
    The legalization of same-sex marriage benefits both LGBT people and America as a nation. As two major Supreme Court decisions about same-sex marriage (Proposition 8 and DOMA) loom on the horizon, it's an opportune time to refocus attention on the many advantages associated with the pursuit and achievement of marriage equaility.

    There are at least seven ways in which the legalization of gay marriage is beneficial for LGBT Americans and the United States of America.

    1. Promotes Equality and Non-Discrimination in Society
    Millions of LGBT people contribute daily to American life in a multitude of ways culturally, socially, financially, politically, vocationally, and spiritually. We are fundamental to this nation's continued growth and evolution and the U.S.A. would suffer greatly from the withdrawal of our many contributions. The legalization of same-sex marriage affirms the inherent worthiness of LGBT people as valued American citizens deserving of equal rights under the law.

    This promotion of equality and non-discrimination plays an extremely important role in reducing homophobia and in affirming a minority group in society which has for so long endured significant discrimination and stigmatization. Legalizing same-sex marriage communicates to millions of people across the country that gay relationships are of equal value to straight relationships, thereby helping to reduce intergroup prejudice and supporting cultural diversity.

    2. Fosters Psychological, Physical, and Social Wellbeing Amongst LGBT People
    Same-sex couples are excluded from the institution of marriage in 38 states. Furthermore, the federal government denies legally married same-sex couples more than 1000 federal rights and benefits associated with marriage. This discrimination and institutional exclusion negatively impacts LGBT people in a variety of tangible and practical ways. It can also cause psychological distress, social conflict and ill-health. Equal allocation of marriage rights and benefits to same-sex couples assists LGBT people in a practical sense and the elimination of relationship discrimination helps promote psychosocial and physical well-being.

    It is to America's benefit when LGBT people are given the freedom to achieve their full potential in life without having to waste precious time and resources battling for basic equality. The act of discrimination is an essentially destructive societal behavior which, ultimately, brings negative consequences both to the oppressors and the oppressed. Ending discrimination in marriage laws goes some way to correcting this.

    3. Promotes Family Stability and Validates LGBT Family Units
    Today's children represent America's future and it is in the country's best interest to support their development, regardless of whom they are parented by. Marriage, as an institution, helps to foster the wellbeing of children by providing married couples with various rights, benefits and protections which can strengthen relationship bonds and family units. Around the nation there are millions of children being raised in households led by same-sex couples, many of whom are denied the right to legally marry in their home state.

    The denial of equal marriage rights unfairly disadvantages children who are raised by same-sex couples residing in states where gay marriage is not legal or not recognized. This lack of support for LGBT families denies children within them the same type of protections afforded children in "traditional" families headed by married straight couples. It also sends a damaging message to children within LGBT families that their parents are inferior, second-class citizens who are not worthy of equal treatment in society. The legalization of gay marriage helps to address this injustice by supporting family stability and validating the worthiness of families led by same-sex couples.

    4. Provides Economic and Business Opportunities
    The legalization of same-sex marriage has consistently been shown to provide an economic boost to those states and countries that have embraced marriage equality. The marriage and wedding industry is a significant one. Allowing gay couples to marry provides businesses in this industry with a large and new market to access. Nearly $260 million was injected into the New York City economy in the year following the legalization of same-sex marriage. Gay marriage tourism benefits those regions which permit same-sex marriage by attracting gay couples from other states and countries where it is not legal.

    Most large businesses understand the importance of recognizing gay marriage because it enables them to more readily retain LGBT staff and customers. Not surprisingly, an increasing number of national and global companies are now expressing support for marriage equality and speaking out in favor of gay marriage.

    5. Fosters True Freedom of Religion
    Freedom of religion allows a person or group to pursue the practice of their religion without governmental interference. It also protects those who do not follow a religion by shielding them from being forced to live in accordance with religious beliefs and values they do not agree with. The legalization of same-sex marriage is consistent with freedom of religion in that it removes from marriage laws religious notions that may have initially shaped those laws.

    There is no hierarchy of religions in a society which truly honors freedom of religion. Accordingly, the religious views of no one particular group should be given preference in the development of marriage laws. While some religions don't support same-sex marriage, others certainly do support it. The most fair and ethical approach -- which treats all people equally regardless of religious affiliation -- is to factor out religious points of view when crafting marriage laws within a secular context.

    6. Assists With the De-politicization of LGBT Rights
    The politicization of LGBT rights as a left vs right issue has been one of the many "culture wars" that has plagued American society in recent decades. The battle between pro-equality "liberals" and anti-equality "conservatives" continues to characterize the state by state legalization of same-sex marriage. Democratic politicians have successfully led legislative efforts to legalize gay marriage in nine states. President Obama's support of marriage equality, Bill Clinton's abandonment of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), and Democratic voters' support of marriage equality contrast strikingly with the situation on the Republican side. Opposition to same-sex marriage remains a key part of the GOP platform and a majority of Republican politicians and GOP voters do not support marriage equality.

    This unfortunate construction of marriage equality as a left vs right and Democratic vs Republican issue wrongly politicizes what is essentially a human rights matter. In this sense the legalization of same-sex marriage plays a central role in de-politicizing the quest for LGBT equality. It provides Democrats and Republicans with an opportunity to refocus their efforts on addressing other problems in society and to stop wasting valuable resources on a manufactured culture war.

    7. Strengthens National Identity and International Reputation
    "Liberty and justice for all" is a phrase often used in descriptions of the U.S.A. which seek to capture the nation's collective psyche, spirit and identity. Historically, America has presented itself as a global leader in matters of freedom and democracy. It's unfortunate and ironic, however, that back on home soil one particular group of people is consistently denied full access to the "American dream." The fact that same-sex marriage is not legal in thirty-eight states of the U.S.A. and not recognized by the federal government has damaged America's international reputation in relation to LGBT rights.

    Fifteen countries have moved ahead of the U.S.A. in providing federal marriage equality. The removal of anti-gay discrimination in all state and federal laws that apply to marriage would play a key role in enhancing America's international reputation in matters of social justice and in restoring our integrity as a global leader in the provision of civil and human rights. The tag of "liberty and justice for all" will become more believable when same-sex couples are granted equal access to marriage laws across the country.

  • #2
    Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

    Originally posted by noahath View Post
    I happened across this article this morning, and I thought I'd share it as it raises some very interesting ideas.

    I especially think point 5 is relevant to this discussion http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/huma...ml#post2173449.

    Murray Lipp: 7 Ways the U.S.A. Benefits From the Legalization of Gay Marriage
    This is very interesting. I think Point 5 is very relevant, especially, "There is no hierarchy of religions in a society which truly honors freedom of religion."

    True freedom of religion is respecting & honoring all religions - not favoring one over the other. Ideally it would include respect & honor for those who desire freedom from religion. & for some, religion is a very private or personal matter, in an ideal World, that would be respected & honored as well.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

      Remembering i give two shits about this subject will still take a crack at it for arguments state:

      1. Promotes Equality and Non-Discrimination in Society

      As an example then this should be applied to polygamy and other sexual fringe groups ... because someone cant get married is not as discriminatory as is being played by the vote getting agenda so i find this particular argument to be specious... once again there are no gay drinking fountains nor latrines and to be honest i have never seen them had dogs and fire hoses used on them like jim crow days.. if i were black i would be pissed off at this weak line of argument .... BTW there books of EEO laws that already cover everything there needs to be thought of in regards to discriminating gays lesbians and transgenders.... marriage = civil unions but the AGENDA wont have it...

      2. Fosters Psychological, Physical, and Social Wellbeing Amongst LGBT People

      Since when is it my responsibility or the governments to worry about the social well being of a group... I once again forward then this should be applied to any group that wants their ego coaxed....

      3. Promotes Family Stability and Validates LGBT Family Units

      Already validated in schools , adoption services etc... this is strawman

      4. Provides Economic and Business Opportunities

      so they are already living together and they do not spend money? well crap if this applies we should legalize everything so we can improve the economy... hell this is a great argument for not banning guns ... it would hurt the economy... what a crock of shit!

      5. Fosters True Freedom of Religion

      by passing a law that goes against most all religions tenants you are infringing on freedom of religion..........

      6. Assists With the De-politicization of LGBT Rights

      Never happen like the NAACP this Adenda is all about politics and after this issue they will find something else to whine and gnash teeth about ..... this movement fertilized by obama who makes it more politicized, will not accept civil unions, call the world bigots if they do not think like them and demonize anyone who dare not agree with them. ... . nope this will stay political as long as you have crappy politicians who change their core beliefs prior to elections for they need to by pandering to fringe groups to win.....

      7. Strengthens National Identity and International Reputation

      Our national identity is a reason to change a core tenant in our society to appease a group who could get civil unions but due to their agenda will not accept anything shy than marriage?.... strawman .. the world hates us even with the dear leader in the chair .. nothing will change that sans us crumbling and being a third world country...

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

        I do agree with Rakkasin on some points. and disagree on others.

        1. Promotes equality, I agree that polygamy etc should also be legalized. Anything two or more consenting adults agree to of their own free will behind closed doors is really none of the governments business. As out Prime Minister said in 1967 or so, the Government has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.

        2. Social well being of any specific group is also none of the governments business. They should be developing an environment where the social well being of all people is accommodated, therefore legalize LGBT relationships for those that want them and do not force them on those who do not want them.

        3. Disagree that this is a straw-man, a gay couple does not have the same rights as a heterosexual couple. For example the spouse is automatically considered the next of kin but in gay couples another family member would be considered the next of kin. Why not let people designate who they want to consider their next of kin?

        4 Business opportunities. Not really an issue as they spend money anyway. All you do is help the people in the wedding industry.

        5 Freedom of religion Disagree with Rakkasn on this one. No one except the religious people are forcing anyone to follow a religious belief that they disagree with. True freedom of religion requires that we be tolerant of others religious beliefs or non beliefs and not discriminate against them because of this.

        6 De-politicization of LGBT rights. Rights should be universal, not something granted to or denied to specific groups and especially when this decision ids driven from a religious basis.

        7. National identity, part of the US national identity is of a freedom loving society. Would not granting people the freedom to pick their life partner and mate be one of the basic cherished freedoms of such a country?

        The basis of laws should not be in on religious reasoning. The basis of laws should be secular.

        Can anyone think of a secular reason against gay marriage?
        Last edited by RDK; 06-03-2013, 06:11 PM.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

          I must take issue with point 5 for this reason: In this day and age, religion and marriage do not lilve in the same quarter. Couples can always go to a justice of the peace. Now the question of religion and gay participants is very interesting, and I if memory serves, the Presbyterians are on the leading edge of this issue; (Maybe Episcipalians), but it's just a matter of time before organized religion catches up.

          BTW, no one can pass a law that goes against any religious tennant.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

            From my chair #6 is the one that matters most here. The biggest benefit to "legalizing gay marriage" is ending the debate. There is too much momentum at this point, aided by changing public opinion, to go back now to even the spirit of the DOMA.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

              Originally posted by Rakkasan View Post
              Remembering i give two shits about this subject will still take a crack at it for arguments state:

              1. Promotes Equality and Non-Discrimination in Society

              As an example then this should be applied to polygamy and other sexual fringe groups ... because someone cant get married is not as discriminatory as is being played by the vote getting agenda so i find this particular argument to be specious... once again there are no gay drinking fountains nor latrines and to be honest i have never seen them had dogs and fire hoses used on them like jim crow days.. if i were black i would be pissed off at this weak line of argument .... BTW there books of EEO laws that already cover everything there needs to be thought of in regards to discriminating gays lesbians and transgenders.... marriage = civil unions but the AGENDA wont have it...

              2. Fosters Psychological, Physical, and Social Wellbeing Amongst LGBT People

              Since when is it my responsibility or the governments to worry about the social well being of a group... I once again forward then this should be applied to any group that wants their ego coaxed....

              3. Promotes Family Stability and Validates LGBT Family Units

              Already validated in schools , adoption services etc... this is strawman

              4. Provides Economic and Business Opportunities

              so they are already living together and they do not spend money? well crap if this applies we should legalize everything so we can improve the economy... hell this is a great argument for not banning guns ... it would hurt the economy... what a crock of shit!

              5. Fosters True Freedom of Religion

              by passing a law that goes against most all religions tenants you are infringing on freedom of religion..........

              6. Assists With the De-politicization of LGBT Rights

              Never happen like the NAACP this Adenda is all about politics and after this issue they will find something else to whine and gnash teeth about ..... this movement fertilized by obama who makes it more politicized, will not accept civil unions, call the world bigots if they do not think like them and demonize anyone who dare not agree with them. ... . nope this will stay political as long as you have crappy politicians who change their core beliefs prior to elections for they need to by pandering to fringe groups to win.....

              7. Strengthens National Identity and International Reputation

              Our national identity is a reason to change a core tenant in our society to appease a group who could get civil unions but due to their agenda will not accept anything shy than marriage?.... strawman .. the world hates us even with the dear leader in the chair .. nothing will change that sans us crumbling and being a third world country...
              Whether they're part of an agenda or not I don't exactly understand why that makes any of them wrong. And I just want you to clarify something because I don't really understand what you are trying to say here. I don't think in your entire post you directly contradicted any of the benefits in the article. Like in response to the first benefit you seemed to say there isn't a lot of discrimination against homosexuals in the first place. And in your response to the second benefit you say it isn't your responsibility, but that makes no difference because it's still a benefit nonetheless.

              I would completely agree with you that these are weak arguments and have no purpose other than to promote an agenda, but these are all benefits even if you don't give a shit about this subject, plus you don't give a reason against gay marriage. Like in your response to it providing economic and business opportunities, I can say legalizing guns would do the same, but that it is also dangerous because guns ARE dangerous. Comparing that to legalizing gay marriage IS a crock of a shit because there isn't anything dangerous about gay marriage.

              Also "passing a law that goes against most all religions tenants" doesn't infringe on their rights because they don't have to conduct gay marriages even if it is legal.

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              • #8
                Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

                There is a SIMPLE solution.

                Change the laws from Marriage to Civil Unions. All LEGAL connotations that Marriage gives through government will not be called a Civil Union and there will be NO Religious ceremony to get there legal bindings. It is ONLY a contract between two consenting adults. Simple problem solved.

                You want a MARRIAGE you go to a church and if they will marry you then fine but it has NO LEGAL weight.

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                • #9
                  Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

                  Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                  From my chair #6 is the one that matters most here. The biggest benefit to "legalizing gay marriage" is ending the debate. There is too much momentum at this point, aided by changing public opinion, to go back now to even the spirit of the DOMA.
                  But legalizing abortion didn't end that debate.

                  Now, as to # 2 and #3, the premise is flawed: Homosexuality does quite the opposite of what those two points claim:

                  2. Fosters Psychological, Physical, and Social Wellbeing Amongst LGBT People
                  3. Promotes Family Stability and Validates LGBT Family Units

                  For the following reasons:
                  • There are innate biochemical differences evident in the development of male and female brain anatomy, psyche, and even learning styles so a mother and a father (a male and a female) each contribute differently to the overall parenting ... and therefore to the development of the child. For examples, girls without fathers perform more poorly in school, are more likely to be sexually active and become pregnant as teenagers. Boys without fathers have higher rates of delinquency, violence, and aggression Sax, Leonard. Why Gender Matters: What Parents and Teachers Need to Know About the Emerging Science of Sex Differences (New York: Doubleday, 2005). Blankenhorn, David. Fatherless America. (New York: Basic books, 1995). Byrd, Dean. “Gender Complementarity and Child-rearing: Where Tradition and Science Agree,” Journal of Law & Family Studies, University of Utah, Vol. 6 no. 2, 2005.
                  • Research has shown that children reared in same-sex households are more likely to experience sexual confusion, engage in risky sexual experimentation, and later adopt a same-sex identity. F. Tasker and S. Golombok, “Adults Raised as Children in Lesbian Families,” American Journal of Orthopsychiatric Association, 65 (1995): 213. J. Michael Bailey et al., “Sexual Orientation of Adult Sons of Gay Fathers,” Developmental Psychology 31 (1995): 124-129. Ibid., pp.127,128. F. Tasker and S. Golombok, “Do Parents Influence the Sexual Orientation of Their Children?” Developmental Psychology 32 (1996): 7. Judith Stacey and Timothy J. Biblarz, “(How) Does the Sexual Orientation of Parents Matter,” American Sociological Review 66 (2001): 174, 179. Nanette K. Gartrell, Henny M. W. Bos and Naomi G. Goldberg, “Adolescents of the U.S. National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: Sexual Orientation, Sexual Behavior, and Sexual Risk Exposure” Archive of Sexual Behavior, 40 (2011):1199-1209, p. 1205.
                  • Adolescents and young adults who adopt the homosexual lifestyle are at increased risk for mental health problems, including major depression, anxiety disorders, conduct disorders, substance dependence, and especially suicidal ideation and suicide attempts. Judith Stacey and Timothy J. Biblarz, “(How) Does the Sexual Orientation of Parents Matter,” American Sociological Review 66 (2001): 174, 179. Mark Regnerus, How Different are the Adult Children of Parents who have Same-Sex Relationships? Findings from the New Family Structures Study 41 Social Science Research 752 (2012). Daniel Potter, Same-Sex Parent Families and Children’s Academic Achievement 74 Journal of Marriage & Family 556 (2012).
                  • Violence between same-sex partners is two to three times more common than among married heterosexual couples. Gwat Yong Lie and Sabrina Gentlewarrier, “Intimate Violence in Lesbian Relationships: Discussion of Survey Findings and Practice Implications,” Journal of Social Service Research 15 (1991): 41-59. D. Island and P. Letellier, Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence (New York: Haworth Press, 1991), p. 14. Lettie L. Lockhart et al., “Letting out the Secret: Violence in Lesbian Relationships,” Journal of Interpersonal Violence 9 (1994): 469-492. “Violence Between Intimates,” Bureau of Justice Statistics Selected Findings, November 1994, p. 2. Health Implications Associated With Homosexuality (Austin: The Medical Institute for Sexual Health, 1999), p. 79.
                  • Same-sex partnerships are significantly more prone to dissolution than heterosexual marriages with the average same-sex relationship lasting only two to three years. David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall, 1984), pp. 252-253. M. Saghir and E. Robins, Male and Female Homosexuality (Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins, 1973), p. 225; L.A. Peplau and H. Amaro, “Understanding Lesbian Relationships,” in Homosexuality: Social, Psychological, and Biological Issues, ed. J. Weinrich and W. Paul (Beverly Hills: Sage, 1982). Schumm, Walter R. (2010) ‘Comparative Relationship Stability of Lesbian Mother and Heterosexual Mother Families: A Review of Evidence’, Marriage & Family Review, 46:8,299-509. M. Pollak, “Male Homosexuality,” in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, ed. P. Aries and A. Bejin, translated by Anthony Forster (New York, NY: B. Blackwell, 1985), pp. 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality (Northvale, New Jersey: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), pp. 124, 125.
                  • Homosexual men and women are reported to be more promiscuous, with serial sex partners, even within what are loosely-termed “committed relationships. A. P. Bell and M. S. Weinberg, Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978), pp. 308, 309; See also A. P. Bell, M. S. Weinberg, and S. K. Hammersmith, Sexual Preference (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1981). Paul Van de Ven et al., “A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men,” Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 354. A. A. Deenen, “Intimacy and Sexuality in Gay Male Couples,” Archives of Sexual Behavior, 23 (1994): 421-431. “Sex Survey Results,” Genre (October 1996), quoted in “Survey Finds 40 percent of Gay Men Have Had More Than 40 Sex Partners,” Lambda Report, January 1998, p. 20. Marie Xiridoui, et al., “The Contribution of Steady and Casual Partnerships to the Incidence of HIV infection among Homosexual Men in Amsterdam,” AIDS 17 (2003): 1029-1038. [Note: one of the findings of this recent study is that those classified as being in "steady relationships" reported an average of 8 casual partners a year in addition to their partner (p. 1032)]
                  • Individuals who practice a homosexual lifestyle are more likely than heterosexuals to experience mental illness, substance abuse,suicidal tendencies and shortened life spans. J. Bradford et al., “National Lesbian Health Care Survey: Implications for Mental Health Care,” Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 62 (1994): 239, cited in Health Implications Associated with Homosexuality, p. 81. Theo G. M. Sandfort, et al., “Same-sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders,” Archives of General Psychiatry 58 (January 2001): 85-91. Bailey, J. M. Commentary: Homosexuality and mental illness. Arch. Gen. Psychiatry. 56 (1999): 876-880. Author states, “These studies contain arguably the best published data on the association between homosexuality and psychopathology, and both converge on the same unhappy conclusion: homosexual people are at substantially higher risk for some form of emotional problems; including suicidality, major depression, and anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, and nicotine dependence…” Joanne Hall, “Lesbians Recovering from Alcoholic Problems: An Ethnographic Study of Health Care Expectations,” Nursing Research 43 (1994): 238-244. R. Herrell et al., “Sexual Orientation and Suicidality, Co-twin Study in Adult Men,” Archives of General Psychiatry 56 (1999): 867-874.Vickie M. Mays, et al., “Risk of Psychiatric Disorders among Individuals Reporting Same-sex Sexual Partners in the National Comorbidity Survey,” American Journal of Public Health, vol. 91 (June 2001): 933-939. Robert S. Hogg et al., “Modeling the Impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men,” International Journal of Epidemiology 26 (1997): 657.



                  Addendum: Although some will claim that the above dysfunctions are a result of societal pressures in America, the same dysfunctions exist at inordinately high levels among homosexuals in cultures where the practice is more widely accepted. Sandfort, T.G.M.; de Graaf, R.; Bijl, R.V.; Schnabel. Same-sex sexual behavior and psychiatric disorders. Arch. Gen. Psychiatry. 58 (2001): 85-91.

                  In my mind, the above research ably proves that a homosexual lifestyle stimulates no psychological, physical, or social well-being amongst those choosing it and promotes family instability, thus invalidating LBGT family units.

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                  • #10
                    Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

                    Originally posted by Good1 View Post
                    But legalizing abortion didn't end that debate.

                    Now, as to # 2 and #3, the premise is flawed: Homosexuality does quite the opposite of what those two points claim:

                    2. Fosters Psychological, Physical, and Social Wellbeing Amongst LGBT People
                    3. Promotes Family Stability and Validates LGBT Family Units

                    For the following reasons:
                    Very true, but you must agree the debate behind abortion is a little different than that of gay marriage.

                    From the perspective of the courts what made Roe v Wade even possible for consideration was the position of the rights of the individual against the rights of the State. The ultimate point of which is what is considered life so that States could regulate. Up to a point. Without derailing the thread too much here and of course the decision stil up for debate (as you indicate) came down to a balance. The courts offered the Roe v Wade decision and here we are today still in debate. At what point is life? Does the rights of the woman matter here? What about the rights of the child? States rights? Etc... are the questions we still debate from this one decision.

                    I suspect the courts would have a very different debate on the rights of the individual against the rights of the State as gay marriage is not necessarily about creation of life. Adoption and other methods notwithstanding of course, which appear to be other issues the courts are already having to deal with independently of this decision (assuming we get one in a manner we are discussing.)

                    To argue the case against gay marriage would mean potentially using the studies and conclusions you have offered. Which means from a regulation standpoint you could make the debate about any condition where the environment is less than ideal. I would expect great opposition studies to those you have offered. But still a very slippery slope condition where all marriage could be regulated by the States on similar terms. I can think of several unintended consequences. Namely those in poverty or otherwise economically struggling. Going after gay marriage this way could also be easly applied to other studies we know exist of kids raised in lower economic conditions. If the backdrop is a sort of protection of the individual from themselves (still debatable) then we open up a large gray area for the government to play in with regulation. For instance, we know kids raised by at least one parent that smoke are twice as likely to smoke themselves. From a health perspective of the child, using area of debate you have here, we should regulate.

                    Note - I'll admit I am not familiar with all of these studies you referenced. It will take me some time to go through them all which may change my own opinion assuming I do not find an alternate study with different conclusions.

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                    • #11
                      Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

                      Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                      Very true, but you must agree the debate behind abortion is a little different than that of gay marriage.

                      From the perspective of the courts what made Roe v Wade even possible for consideration was the position of the rights of the individual against the rights of the State. The ultimate point of which is what is considered life so that States could regulate. Up to a point. Without derailing the thread too much here and of course the decision stil up for debate (as you indicate) came down to a balance. The courts offered the Roe v Wade decision and here we are today still in debate. At what point is life? Does the rights of the woman matter here? What about the rights of the child? States rights? Etc... are the questions we still debate from this one decision.

                      I suspect the courts would have a very different debate on the rights of the individual against the rights of the State as gay marriage is not necessarily about creation of life. Adoption and other methods notwithstanding of course, which appear to be other issues the courts are already having to deal with independently of this decision (assuming we get one in a manner we are discussing.)

                      To argue the case against gay marriage would mean potentially using the studies and conclusions you have offered. Which means from a regulation standpoint you could make the debate about any condition where the environment is less than ideal. I would expect great opposition studies to those you have offered. But still a very slippery slope condition where all marriage could be regulated by the States on similar terms. I can think of several unintended consequences. Namely those in poverty or otherwise economically struggling. Going after gay marriage this way could also be easly applied to other studies we know exist of kids raised in lower economic conditions. If the backdrop is a sort of protection of the individual from themselves (still debatable) then we open up a large gray area for the government to play in with regulation. For instance, we know kids raised by at least one parent that smoke are twice as likely to smoke themselves. From a health perspective of the child, using area of debate you have here, we should regulate.

                      Note - I'll admit I am not familiar with all of these studies you referenced. It will take me some time to go through them all which may change my own opinion assuming I do not find an alternate study with different conclusions.
                      I agree with the points you offer, here, however I would caution that raising paralell issues such as "other studies we know exist" abotu kids raised in lower economic conditions (etc.) to refute the studies of the impact of homosexuality on the stability of families and on the children therein is logical fallacy. Of course those studies do exist and they might apply to certain aspects of this argument: But that "other" conditions impact children and families does not have a dispositive effect on THIS condition and it's impact on children and families.

                      I'm not so much approaching it from the "protect the individual from themselves" perspective. All contrary indications notwithstanding, I do still firmly defend the right of the individual to do whatever they want as long as they are the only victim. But unlike some here, I do see serious ramifications to others from the behaviors being spoken of here, most of which I've supported with the research above. Speaking of research, though, you mentioned "opposition studies" to those I listed. There has also been some (limited) research into the quality of such opposition research: Robert Lerner, Ph.D., Althea Nagai, Ph.D. No Basis: What the Studies Don’t Tell Us About Same Sex Parenting, Washington DC;Marriage Law Project/Ethics and Public Policy Center, 2001. P. Morgan, P. Morgan Children as Trophies? Examining the Evidence on Same-Sex Parenting, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK; Christian Institute, 2002. and J. Paul Guiliani and Dwight G. Duncan, “Brief of Amici Curiae Massachusetts Family Institute and National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality,” Appeal to the Supreme Court of Vermont, Docket No. S1009-97CnC. (just in case you run out of things to read). This research suggests studies that appear to indicate "neutral to favorable child outcomes from same-sex parenting" have critical design flaws, inlcuding non-longitudinal design, inadequate sample size, biased sample selection, lack of proper controls, failure to account for confounding variables, and other flaws.

                      One final caution: I am speaking here of the behavior ... not the individual: I don't want to get dragged into "nurture or nature" argument as there is no evidence to either side. The behavior, whether homo- or hetero- is a choice we each make. As I've said elsewhere in here, sexual behavior is not a biological mandate: We don't HAVE to do it in order to survive. We choose to do it.
                      Last edited by DavidSF; 06-04-2013, 07:28 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

                        1. Promotes Equality and Non-Discrimination in Society No, actually it doesn't. All it means is that 'they got theirs' one special interest group got some special recognition... nothing more.

                        2. Fosters Psychological, Physical, and Social Wellbeing Amongst LGBT People No it doesn't, and all the other regular run of the mill Psychological, Physical, and Social problems associated with being an isolated, very small, non-conforming part society still remain.

                        3. Promotes Family Stability and Validates LGBT Family Units Again no it doesn't... and all the other regular run of the mill Psychological, Physical, and Social problems associated with being an isolated, very small, non-conforming part society still remain.

                        4. Provides Economic and Business Opportunities Even if so... and I doubt it... it wouldn't be big enough to be a rounding error.

                        5. Fosters True Freedom of Religion So would allowing human sacrifice...

                        6. Assists With the De-politicization of LGBT Rights No, it validates politicization of LGBT Rights... "rights" that do not exist in the first place.

                        7. Strengthens National Identity and International ReputationExcept among those nations... more than 100 of them including those like... Australia that don't reconize gay marriage.

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                        • #13
                          Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

                          The heterosexual nuclear family has been the building block of human society. And when adhered to, that society will be a better, less chaotic society over the long haul. We can clearly see the ills that arise within a society when you devalue the institution of heterosexual marriage, the cost to that society not only in tax dollars but in societal problems.

                          We used to be concerned with doing the things that yield the best, the healthiest society, and negating anything that would hurt instead of help that society, that nation. But we have tossed those out and into the garbage, ignoring the reason why humanity has constructed the rules it constructed over thousands of years.

                          A society if it is concerned about health will never monkey with what was found to provide a more stable society, which in this case is heterosexual marriage and the traditional family unit. If you want to create more problems for a society, you move away from what was found to work the best, which was surely through trial and error over time.

                          And that is why gay marriage seems so silly to me, when some sort of civil contract would suffice, unless of course you were interested in changing the world to suit your own individual desires.

                          But of course if I had my way, any children that were involved in a homosexual relationship would be removed and put into heterosexual marriage homes. In the interest of the kids, and in the interest of society. I wouldn't want to take away their right to have sex with the same sex, but I would not grant them a right to bring kids into such a relationship. Kids are more important than the lusts of homosexuals. And of course the sexual lusts drive those relationships. If you don't believe that, show me a young couple of homosexuality and tell them they have to be celibate. But the sex drive also gets males and females together too. If there were no sexual pleasure involved, there would be no homosexual couples. So, allow them of course to indulge in what turns them on, but for god's sake leave the kids out of it.

                          If you want to live an alternative lifestyle, fine, but don't bring kids into it. Don't cause them future problems with your own sexual desires. It is utterly selfish and irresponsible to do that. And you don't have their best interest in mind, only your own interests.

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                          • #14
                            Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

                            I think marriage should be left to the church. If the government wants to give benefits to any certain people, they should make their own designation for the arrangement. That should apply to heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.

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                            • #15
                              Re: 7 ways which the USA would benefit from legalising gay marriage

                              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                              I think marriage should be left to the church. If the government wants to give benefits to any certain people, they should make their own designation for the arrangement. That should apply to heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.
                              Finally something we agree on.

                              Marriage should be a strictly religious institution.

                              Civil unions (the name does not matter) should be something separate form a religious marriage and be the only event conveying the civil partnership rights now associated with marriage ( next of kin designation for example)

                              Simplest way to do this would be to empower certain people, (ministers , rabbis etc being the majority because I am assuming most people would still want some ceremony associated with they partnership) who can witness and ratify the signing of a civil union contract. It can be a basic default one or a custom tailored one like a prenup agreement.

                              Other countries already do such a thing. The daughter of some friends was married in Hong Kong. They had a religious ceremony but it was meaningless according to the law until they went to the court house (for lack of a better term) and signed the necessary papers there which they could have done without any other ceremony.


                              I'd let these civil unions also be three or more party agreements if that is what the people concerned want to have.
                              Last edited by RDK; 06-04-2013, 12:11 PM.

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