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What is gender identity?

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  • What is gender identity?

    Ok I probably won't get a lot of responses to this, as it's just not the kind of topic that's discussed here very often in this way. I suppose the discussion will also require some female input, and I'm not sure of their representation on this board (I don't bother to look it up or remember it). Maybe I'll repost it somewhere else.



    I am wondering: what is gender identity?



    A different but related topic, homosexuality (or any sexual preference), is easy for me to understand. I get feelings when I see a certain kind of woman, and other people get those feelings from different objects or acts. Easy.



    But gender identity? I don't "feel" a man. Am I conflicted? Not in the slightest.

    I don't "feel" a man in the same sense that I don't "feel" 173 cm. But I haven't heard of "height identity disorder".

    Would I like to be taller? Well sure.

    Would I like to be a woman? Well I don't think I would mind. It's certainly fun to imagine. I occasionaly have female RPG characters and when I was younger I had a female star strek avatar on a SF forum (it didn't even occur to me that there was a discrepancy until someone pointed it out a bit later).

    Can I imagine yearning to be the other sex? I can, but that mentally pushes me in a direction of not being happy with who you are in general, as in having confidence issues and self-image issues. In that sense I can imagine wanting to be a woman as an effect of, but not as a cause of a self-image problem.



    I don't wanna make this about "me me me", but currently I can't relate to people who want to be a different gender, men OR women. The alternative is regarding transgender people as an alien species which you can study rationally, but not understand emotionally.

    I suppose, as a man, you can have a stronger gender identity than I. Like if you enjoy watching sports, or enjoy looking at women on top of Italian cars. Things which I just don't have. What I'm saying is: the problem of me not being able to identify with gender identity disorder could be in me. I don't have that with most conditions though.



    Thoughts?

  • #2
    Re: What is gender identity?

    From what I've gathered it's not just what you imagine yourself to be (recent foolish CA law not withstanding), it's got a deeper core foundation in ones psychological make up. The more information that seems to come to the fore about this the more that is seems to be deeply rooted in ones psychological make up, and should there be a reversal of gender, females whose psychological make up drives them to become male, and males whose psychological make up drives them to become female, it always seems to have some sort of common traumatic event or atypical upbringing thread in their history.

    There are the rare cases when a body DNA dictates one thing, where physical traits of the opposite gender exists. However, I believe that those cases are the rarity rather than the common case.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Re: What is gender identity?

      Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
      From what I've gathered it's not just what you imagine yourself to be (recent foolish CA law not withstanding), it's got a deeper core foundation in ones psychological make up. The more information that seems to come to the fore about this the more that is seems to be deeply rooted in ones psychological make up, and should there be a reversal of gender, females whose psychological make up drives them to become male, and males whose psychological make up drives them to become female, it always seems to have some sort of common traumatic event or atypical upbringing thread in their history.
      If it is indeed not biological, would you not expect more results from psychotherapy? As I have read psychotherapy to adjust gender identity is discouraged because it is ineffective and can be harmful. Insights have developed roughly along the same lines as homosexuality.


      There are the rare cases when a body DNA dictates one thing, where physical traits of the opposite gender exists. However, I believe that those cases are the rarity rather than the common case.
      A requirement for the official diagnosis of GID is "No physical intersex characteristics", so it appears you are right.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Re: What is gender identity?

        I believe we're talking about two different-but-similar paradigms, though:
        1. There are those who are born with both sets of genitalia, or "hermaphrodites" (a word not commonly heard today). No regard is given to whether or not their DNA dictates female or male, but some parent somewhere decides to raise "him/her" as a male or a female and, in later years, they can develop "gender dysphoria" (not sure that is the proper term, but it'll do for now until someone corrects me).
        2. There are also those who, as eohrn said, are one gender, but psychologically identify themselves with the other gender whether or not they take surgical steps to "correct" their dysphoria.



        I observe that our society tends to look askance at both groups as weird (which, by contemporary standards, they are), but moreover, I have to wonder what the correct (or "proper" or "appropriate") response to each group should be.

        Hermaphrodites, again solely in my opinion, should be DNA'd to determine their gender and, then, surgically altered to match their DNA, regardless of how they were raised (presupposing they want such ... I'm not talking about the gubbermint forcing anything on anyone here).

        "Gender confused" folks, on the other hand, are suffering from a psychological aberration or abnormality (again, in my opinion) so they should receive treatment (if they want it ... NOT talking about government forcing anyone to do anything ... but I do resent that I feel like I have to point that out every time so some liberal zealot doesn't pounce on it and move the goalposts to my verbiage instead of on the topic).

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Re: What is gender identity?

          Originally posted by erikvv View Post
          If it is indeed not biological, would you not expect more results from psychotherapy? As I have read psychotherapy to adjust gender identity is discouraged because it is ineffective and can be harmful. Insights have developed roughly along the same lines as homosexuality.
          Psychotherapy is discouraged because it is politically incorrect, not because it is ineffective. Many believe it should not be used because it might prove to be effective and therefore the condition would be proved to be psychological and not pathological.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Re: What is gender identity?

            Originally posted by Good1 View Post
            I believe we're talking about two different-but-similar paradigms, though:
            1. There are those who are born with both sets of genitalia, or "hermaphrodites" (a word not commonly heard today). No regard is given to whether or not their DNA dictates female or male, but some parent somewhere decides to raise "him/her" as a male or a female and, in later years, they can develop "gender dysphoria" (not sure that is the proper term, but it'll do for now until someone corrects me).
            Correct, but I suspect that this is a minority, and technically these people do not have a gender identity disorder, generally speaking.

            1. There are also those who, as eohrn said, are one gender, but psychologically identify themselves with the other gender whether or not they take surgical steps to "correct" their dysphoria.



            I observe that our society tends to look askance at both groups as weird (which, by contemporary standards, they are), but moreover, I have to wonder what the correct (or "proper" or "appropriate") response to each group should be.

            Hermaphrodites, again solely in my opinion, should be DNA'd to determine their gender and, then, surgically altered to match their DNA, regardless of how they were raised (presupposing they want such ... I'm not talking about the gubbermint forcing anything on anyone here).

            "Gender confused" folks, on the other hand, are suffering from a psychological aberration or abnormality (again, in my opinion) so they should receive treatment (if they want it ... NOT talking about government forcing anyone to do anything ... but I do resent that I feel like I have to point that out every time so some liberal zealot doesn't pounce on it and move the goalposts to my verbiage instead of on the topic).
            What kind of treatment are you thinking of? Should it have the goal of making themselves comfortable with whom they are, or the goal of transforming them to their preferred gender.

            And again I wonder, what IS gender identity? What does it mean for you? (assuming you are male) Do you "feel" like you should be a man more than a woman?

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Re: What is gender identity?

              Originally posted by erikvv View Post
              Correct, but I suspect that this is a minority, and technically these people do not have a gender identity disorder, generally speaking.



              What kind of treatment are you thinking of? Should it have the goal of making themselves comfortable with whom they are, or the goal of transforming them to their preferred gender.

              And again I wonder, what IS gender identity? What does it mean for you? (assuming you are male) Do you "feel" like you should be a man more than a woman?





              That's nonsense and you know it. We've tried for decades to make it work, and some still do it today. But there aren't a lot of people running around saying "For a large part of my life I used to feel like I belonged to the opposite sex, but now I don't any more".

              Psychiatrists are not part of a liberal conspiracy.
              There might be some disagreement on that point.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Re: What is gender identity?

                Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                Psychotherapy is discouraged because it is politically incorrect, not because it is ineffective. Many believe it should not be used because it might prove to be effective and therefore the condition would be proved to be psychological and not pathological.
                That's nonsense and you know it. We've tried for decades to make it work, and some still do it today. But there aren't a lot of people running around saying "For a large part of my life I used to feel like I belonged to the opposite sex, but now I don't any more".

                Psychiatrists are not part of a liberal conspiracy.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Re: What is gender identity?

                  Originally posted by Good1 View Post
                  I believe we're talking about two different-but-similar paradigms, though:
                  1. There are those who are born with both sets of genitalia, or "hermaphrodites" (a word not commonly heard today). No regard is given to whether or not their DNA dictates female or male, but some parent somewhere decides to raise "him/her" as a male or a female and, in later years, they can develop "gender dysphoria" (not sure that is the proper term, but it'll do for now until someone corrects me).
                  2. There are also those who, as eohrn said, are one gender, but psychologically identify themselves with the other gender whether or not they take surgical steps to "correct" their dysphoria.



                  I observe that our society tends to look askance at both groups as weird (which, by contemporary standards, they are), but moreover, I have to wonder what the correct (or "proper" or "appropriate") response to each group should be.

                  Hermaphrodites, again solely in my opinion, should be DNA'd to determine their gender and, then, surgically altered to match their DNA, regardless of how they were raised (presupposing they want such ... I'm not talking about the gubbermint forcing anything on anyone here).

                  "Gender confused" folks, on the other hand, are suffering from a psychological aberration or abnormality (again, in my opinion) so they should receive treatment (if they want it ... NOT talking about government forcing anyone to do anything ... but I do resent that I feel like I have to point that out every time so some liberal zealot doesn't pounce on it and move the goalposts to my verbiage instead of on the topic).
                  If you are not born with both sexual organs, and want to be the opposite sex, this is "all in your head". Like other mental afflictions. I wouldn't bend over backwards to give in to what these people want. They need help, from a shrink. If they are unable to stop the silliness on their own.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Re: What is gender identity?

                    Originally posted by erikvv View Post
                    That's nonsense and you know it. We've tried for decades to make it work, and some still do it today. But there aren't a lot of people running around saying "For a large part of my life I used to feel like I belonged to the opposite sex, but now I don't any more".

                    Psychiatrists are not part of a liberal conspiracy.
                    No, but lots of modern liberals need a psychiatrist along with some of these conservatives.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      Re: What is gender identity?

                      Originally posted by erikvv View Post
                      That's nonsense and you know it. We've tried for decades to make it work, and some still do it today. But there aren't a lot of people running around saying "For a large part of my life I used to feel like I belonged to the opposite sex, but now I don't any more".

                      Psychiatrists are not part of a liberal conspiracy.
                      No, they are not part of a liberal conspiracy. They are victims of social pressures to bend their science to fit the current social norms. It is PC pressure that has changed opinions, not science. Everybody is afraid to look into these afflictions any more because the PC police will call them homophobic or some other vile name

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #12
                        Re: What is gender identity?

                        I have posted this before a bit sarcastically to make the point, but it is a valid question, if something like sex which is objectively determinable by DNA and currently unalterable, and yet some in our society believe that it is a matter of "choice", why would that choice not equally apply to race or ethnicity?

                        And for a court or government to declare that the medical treatment and procedures necessary to cosmetically and hormonally disguise one's self a right that either the tax payers, or insurer pools must pay for, why limit it to gender reassignment. If a flat chested woman deeply believes she is a double D inside, why shouldn't she have a right to bigger breasts?

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #13
                          Re: What is gender identity?

                          Like most things, Gender Identity Disorder is a real psychological issue with real treatment options. The problem is our liberal interpretation of this today means the cases of Gender Identity Disorder are more prevalent the further we go. The DSM has some five or six (I forget them all) listed criteria that must be there before that diagnosis can really be handed out, unfortunately today most who claim Gender Identity Disorder are only interest in one of the criteria. In that, there is an effort to accept the condition more than offer treatment options, and it is why Gender Identity Disorder now gets to now be Gender Dysphoria to "avoid stigma" associated with the disorder. In my opinion, the surgical and hormonal treatment options end up being offered way too quick without enough proper session counseling in advance of such drastic change (often with severe physical complications both short term and permanent.) The science tells us that the physiology of the issue is most important, but most tend to focus on the physical aspects first. Acceptance over understanding, or better said self interest of the physical self expression without understanding of the physiology involved as to why the notion of Gender Identity Disorder is there.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #14
                            Re: What is gender identity?

                            Originally posted by Marcus1124 View Post
                            I have posted this before a bit sarcastically to make the point, but it is a valid question, if something like sex which is objectively determinable by DNA and currently unalterable, and yet some in our society believe that it is a matter of "choice", why would that choice not equally apply to race or ethnicity?

                            And for a court or government to declare that the medical treatment and procedures necessary to cosmetically and hormonally disguise one's self a right that either the tax payers, or insurer pools must pay for, why limit it to gender reassignment. If a flat chested woman deeply believes she is a double D inside, why shouldn't she have a right to bigger breasts?
                            That is the issue right there, the determination that one "choice" (which really is a psychological condition) means a right may also mean another choice means some other right (your example of an elected medical procedure.) The misconception is Gender Identity Disorder means an elected surgical treatment, or some right to it. Before the liberalization of the DSM a surgical option was not always the case. In a proper context there is no real right to elected medical procedures of any kind, no matter if we are talking about switching genders or larger breasts. That is how we get in trouble with the responsibility of the individual being replaced with a societal "right" (usually with a fiscal consequence spread onto others.)

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                            • #15
                              Re: What is gender identity?

                              Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                              That is the issue right there, the determination that one "choice" (which really is a psychological condition) means a right may also mean another choice means some other right (your example of an elected medical procedure.) The misconception is Gender Identity Disorder means an elected surgical treatment, or some right to it. Before the liberalization of the DSM a surgical option was not always the case. In a proper context there is no real right to elected medical procedures of any kind, no matter if we are talking about switching genders or larger breasts. That is how we get in trouble with the responsibility of the individual being replaced with a societal "right" (usually with a fiscal consequence spread onto others.)
                              There is no "right" to anything that is required to be provided by someone else...the only exception to that being the right to counsel, being the only right resulting from compulsory process by the state.

                              You have no "right" to housing, clothing, being feed, or medical treatment, because for that to be true, it is necessarily true that other's are tacitly obligated to provide it to you, which is the essence of slavery.

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