Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules - You must read(Updated!)

DISCLAIMER

You agree to NOT use this site or its affiliated sites, services you may have access to as a result of being a member here (subscriber or otherwise), to post items (images, textual material, etc.) that are pornographic in nature, illegal in the United States and/or the country you reside in, support or encourage illegal activities (e.g., terrorism), advertise for your own personal profit, or send unsolicited messages (i.e. SPAM) to members or non-members.

AND

You agree that if any clause or component of this document is found to not be legally binding in a court of law of proper jurisdiction then the remainder of this document shall remain fully binding and in full force.

AND

You agree to NOT hold Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (makers of the forum software), uspoliticsonline.com, sites affiliated with uspoliticsonline.com, its administrators, its moderators, others associated with its operation, and its owners liable for any and all of the following (in whole or in part):
Personal insults/attacks by other members.
The content posted by other members, whether directed at you personally or a label/classification you associate with. This includes remarks you consider to be libelous or slanderous in any way.
Any financial or time loss due to your participation here or as a result of something you read at this site, including posts/PMs by other members and feature(s)/software available at the domain uspoliticsonline.com.
The dissemination of any personal information about you as a result of either your negligence (e.g. staying logged into a computer that others have access to) or willingness to post such information on a public and or private forum, private message or chat box. This includes using your real name or other details that could allow other members and/or the general public to determine your true identity. You are prohibited from using your real name on these forums, either as your username or in posts / PMs you write.

FORUM RULES, IN ADDITION TO THE DISCLAIMER

1. These rules apply to all sections of USPOL, including public and private forums, blogs, and visitor messages.

2. You cannot attack and/or personally insult someone. You cannot bait other forum members; this includes referring to posters by derogatory terms. Please, remain courteous and respectful to all forum members at all times. You agree to take responsibility for reporting such posts when you come across them. Please, use the ignore feature if need be. Any member who intentionally and continually posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response, or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, may be regarded as a “troll” by staff, and have their account suspended or banned.

3. You cannot harass (sexually or otherwise) other members. This includes malicious, slanderous, or defamatory comments. If you are not sure if something you write is inappropriate or not then don't say it. Err on the side of caution.

4. Copying and Pasting Articles, and Starting New Threads. You cannot simply cut and paste in posts or when starting threads. You MUST provide the identifying information (source, author, date, and URL). You must also offer some original thoughts along with the cut and paste. You may copy and paste an excerpt or series of excerpts from the article. Excerpts really shouldn’t be more then a paragraph or two. Furthermore, if you use images or other copyrighted material in your posts or signature you must have permission of the copyright holder unless you know for a fact that the image is in the public domain. In addition:
a. It must include the identifying information; e.g., where available, the author, the publication, the date, the URL.
b. The member must offer some context, including: How did you hear of this article? What is your opinion? Why is it important to you? Why should it be important to forum readers? The more context you provide, the more you assist others in gauging the excerpted information's significance.
c. You may copy and paste an excerpt or series of excerpts, not the whole thing or even the majority of the whole thing to encourage people to read the entire article.

A violation of any of the above will result in the deletion or closing of the post or thread and could earn you a warning or suspension. If you have any questions concering any of the above please PM a moderator and we will be happy to clarify.

5. You cannot post the same thing in multiple forums. You must not open similar threads about the same or a similar topic. You cannot spam the board or send unsolicited messages to members via PM, email or any other means.

6. Do not post off-topic. You cannot derail a thread with off topic posts.

7. You cannot shout in posts. This includes posting in all CAPS, bold, lIkE tHiS, and extra large font. Posts should also be one color, although you may use an additional color for highlighting ideas you wish to address.

8. You may not alter quotes in a way that misrepresents what was originally said.

9. Multiple accounts are not allowed. If you are found to have more than one account all accounts will be permanently terminated.

10. You cannot have a user name, avatar, signature, or post images that are deliberately offensive. That includes the display of overly explicit or graphic images that may not be suitable for minors.

11. Signatures can not have more than three lines of text, with a font size no larger than "4", and no more than two font colors. Images in signatures cannot be any larger than 800 pixels wide x 200 pixels tall. Animated images are not allowed.

12. You are prohibited from taking any action to disturb the use of the services by others, distribute material that contains viruses, spyware or any other malicious code or harmful programs. This includes interfering with the working of the network, attempts to gain unauthorized access to a service or other computer systems that are part of the site or any other site, by use of the available services.

13. Discussion of moderation actions in public and/or private forums is not permitted. Moderation actions include warnings, suspensions and the editing or deletion of posts. If a member has a concern about a moderation action, he or she is invited to address it with the board staff via Private Message. This rule exists to protect the privacy of all posters with regards to disciplinary action. The moderator team will never publicly discuss the warnings/suspensions of any posters, and we ask that you return the favor, whether about yourself or another poster. Posting about moderation actions in the public forums constitutes a violation. You are free to discuss a moderation action via Private Message with the moderator involved, but you may not harass or abuse the moderators (as already specified in the forum rules). In practical terms, this means that once a moderator tells you his or her decision is final, no further PMs about that moderation action are permitted. If you have a concern about a moderation action, you are free to appeal to a Forum Administrator via Private Message. You may only discuss moderator activities or discussion of moderation with staff member if you chose to private message and are not under any circumstances allowed to use the PM function to forward or promote moderator discussion in regards to specific forum action, amongst other regular members. Administrators do reserve the right to read said PMs and may do so ; if that results in discovery of messaging between posters of such moderator discussion then it will lead to the same violation being received for discussing said moderator actions on the forum. If you receive a message to the effect of having been given moderator information, please report it to a member of staff. Engaging back in that discussion with the original violator will earn you just as stiff a sanction.

14. Do not ignore moderators or administrators. Do not repost something a moderator or administrator has deleted. You cannot have moderators or administrators on your ignore list.

15. Only post in English. Short passages in foreign languages may be acceptable if its use seems helpful for the ongoing discussion and when there is no indication of a potential violation of the forum rules. Always provide a translation into English in such cases. In case of doubt, the incident will be regarded as a violation, no matter of the actual meaning of the foreign language text.

16. The use of words/comments etc. written by other posters, without approval of the poster in your personal signature is not allowed nor are references, by name, to other posters allowed.

17. Please pay attention to announcements by Forum staff that will be found in the "Welcome! / News & Announcements" forum from time to time.

18. Use of "liar", "lies", "lying", etc. Accusing someone of being a "liar" or similar accusations towards other posters will generally be regarded as implying an insult and therewith as a violation of the forum rules. "I question the validity of your statement because...", "That's not the truth" or "you are wrong about that" are sufficient for any decent discussion if you want to disagree with somebody's assertions.

19. Thread opening restriction for new members. In order to control SPAM, new members must have moderator approval to start their own threads.

20. Thread titles must relate to the discussion within. Do not make misleading titles, or titles such as "Guess what..." or "You'll never believe this...". Members need to be able to identify the general gist of the thread via the title. Profanity in thread titles is not permitted.

21. Forum members are instructed to use forum tools and abilities for their intended purposes and no other. If members identify a forum glitch or weakness of any kind that allows you to see or do something you know you shouldn't, please report it. Being aware of any unintended access to the Forum and failing to take appropriate steps to notify staff of said access issues, will create a presumption of seeking to take advantage of the issue, will result in either account suspension, or banishment.

22. Any link to a site that contains graphic content, must contain a warning describing what a person might reasonably expect to view if they click on said link. No graphic pictures are to be posted on the Forum.

23. Threats or advocations of violence toward a public figure, or member of the Forum, will not be tolerated. Conversation about revolution or the like is not prohibited by this rule; directly calling for violence is, eg “It's time to kill every <redacted> that voted for the bill,” is not permitted.

24. Accounts with no posts will be deleted after 30 days. Inactive accounts with low post histories may be deleted after one year.

25. Private forums are something offered to members that decide to contribute directly to this site via donations. These donations help immensely in keeping this site up and running. Private forums are designed to allow the contributing member discuss whatever he/she wants to and to have the power to direct that discussion in whatever way he/she chose. They were not designed nor are they intended for simply talking trash about members that don't have access to the forum. While the targeted members cannot see the forum or the comments, it creates a negative atmosphere that really isn't necessary. If you want to totally rip apart ideas, ideologies, political parties, etc. that is fine. We simply ask that you don't use the private forums as a means to attack other members that aren't privy to such comments. It is difficult enough to have a political discussion forum because the discussion of politics is inherently heated as people are so passionate about their beliefs...the ones that take the time to come to such a site in the first place at least. The idea of private forums is so people of similar political persuasions can discuss whatever they want without fear of being attacked. Nonetheless, we hope that a certain level of maturity would foster itself within such an arena and not simply lend itself to a bashing forum.

Private Forums are governed by all of the above Forum rules. In addition:
  • Private forums that essentially become abandoned homes will be subject to deletion, donation or reorganization. Just like elsewhere in life, clubs sometimes lose their vitality and purpose for a myriad of reasons. If it becomes clear that a private forum has clearly lost its vitality and nobody is going to really use it anymore, owners are advised to consider whether to reuse the forum for something new and productive rather than let them linger or notify the Administration that the forum should be rearranged for other purposes, closed, merged with other compatible private forums, donated to others for new purposes, etc. Do not be concerned that your forum must be a membership and post count race with others to avoid falling under this policy; the question is whether your forum has actual vitality instead of being 'brain dead.'
  • Additionally, private forums may only be owned by subscribed members in the Platinum or Diamond categories.
  • Should the owner of a private forum be banned, quit USPOL or otherwise abandon the forum the PF will be transferred to another owner or closed.
  • Propriety of private forums. Administration staff will determine the desirability of a proposed private forum and enact any conditions upon it to ensure its purpose is productive.
  • Any and all instances of sharing accounts by allowing someone else to log in under their own account so they can see into private forums for which they are otherwise not permitted to access, will be deemed violation of the double account rule and all caught doing so will be permanently banned.
  • Relaying private forum posts and information to other posters who are not members of the particular private forum for any negative or destructive purpose (eg mean-spirited gossip, fueling interpersonal disputes, etc), is not permitted, and will constitute a violation of the Forum rules.
  • For purposes of monitoring USPOL Terms of Service Administrative staff (not Moderators) will have access to Private Forums.
  • All Private Forums must have at least one active Administrator as a member for purposes of handling issues which cannot be addressed through moderation permissions.
  • Discussion of moderation activities is prohibited on the open site and is likewise prohibited in Private Forums.

26. The administrators and moderators reserve the right to edit and/or delete a post,and/or close a thread, and/or delete a thread at any time if of the opinion that the post is too obscene, inappropriate, or the discussion has run its course.

27. 'Back seat moderating' is not allowed. If you take issue with another poster's contribution to the forum, you're welcome to report any posts you think are out of line, but you should not bring it up publicly within the forum.

28. Images in posts (whether embedded or hot linked) must be reasonable in size. 800x800 should be considered a good rule of thumb. Excessively large images make it difficult for users on mobile devices to load pages. If necessary please simply link to very large images using the URL tags. In addition, the following images are not permitted (including, but not limited to pages with images or videos containing):
  • Strategically covered nudity
  • Sheer or see-through clothing
  • Lewd or provocative poses
  • Close-ups of breasts, buttocks, or crotches

29. Any solicitation or communication involving sports betting / gambling / online casinos / bookies and or internet based card or slot machine systems or sites will lead to all said content being physically removed from the site and server, and will lead to any and or all parties involved being permanently removed and banned from the site to the farthest extent possible. This includes any links to any form of bookmaker, casino, any type of game or match or event where money transfers on the outcome or link of any sort to wire act violations and or anything in violation of either the Internet Gambling Regulation, Consumer Protection, and Enforcement Act, Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006, or the Federal wire Act. This applies not only to the open forum but all and or any chat rooms, articles, private messages and or private forums. All content that violates this rule will be deleted, without notice.

CONSEQUENCES

Failure to comply with any of the forum rules may result in your posts being edited or deleted and/or your account being temporarily or permanently banned from the forums. U.S. Politics Online uses a warning system that generates an automated Private Message to members when they are in violation of Forum rules. The decision to issue a warning is left to the discretion of the moderator or administrator handling the violation. If a member does not agree with an action taken by a moderator, they can appeal to an administrator after seeking clarification from the moderator who issued the warning/infraction and appealing to them in the first instance. Members MAY NOT harass a moderator or administrator by sending excessive PMs when they are discussing an appeal.

Violations are assigned a point value. Points are valid for 30 days. When a members earns 10 points, their account will be automatically suspended: five (5) days for a first suspension; ten (10) days for a second suspension; and twenty (20) days for a third suspension. If a member incurs an additional 10 points after having served three periods of suspension, then they will be permanently banned from the Forum.

Point values are as follows:
Zero (0) points – Warning
Two (2) points - Minor infraction / Non post infraction (minor) / Off topic posts / spamming
Four (4) points - Academic dishonesty / Baiting / Discussing moderator or administrator actions / Implying an insult / Minor insults / Moderate infraction / Non-post infraction (moderate) / Thread dumping
Six (6) points - Direct insult at another member / major infraction / Non-post infraction (major)
Ten (10) points - Act of criminality, or advocating thereof

The administrators and moderators also bear the right to issue warnings, temporarily suspend or ban posters for continued trolling or other serious misconduct (eg. professional spamming) even if the poster has not yet reached the maximum warning points or suspensions level. Other options if the above consequences do not seem adequate include placing the member in a moderation queue, which means all posts will have to be approved before they are posted to the board.

PRIVACY POLICY

All information obtained by the end user via the registration process is for internal purposes only and will not be sold to or shared with any third parties. However, if the end user participates in illegal activities and a court of proper jurisdiction orders U.S. Politics Online to release certain information about said user then we will act according to the law. Furthermore, no information will be released on threat of a lawsuit, attempted or actual intimidation, or due to any other reason except as notated in the first sentence of this paragraph. Nonetheless, keep in mind that the information we do have is very limited and generally only consists of the IP address a member uses.

SUBSCRIPTIONS

U.S. Politics Online offers several subscription plans to help cover the operational costs of the site. As a thank you for your donation, you will receive special added benefits meant to enhance your U.S. Politics Online experience. Plans vary in price, starting at only $0.05/day, and benefits vary with the price. Benefits include ability to go straight to new posts, to search the forum, larger avatar, private forums, invisible mode, photo gallery, email, web hosting, and no advertisement banners. Please, click here for more details.
See more
See less

Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

    The way the question is worded it is impossible to tell if 4 and 6 bags both satisfy the stipulated requirements. And if both 4 and 6 bags do satisfy the requirements it is impossible to tell if they are the only two which satisfy them. And anyone taking the test is going to waste at least some time wondering about such other missing information as number of friends, the number of stickers available, and whether each bag contains the the same number of stickers.

    Such ambiguity is not acceptable for an exam question at any level.

    After spending a ridiculous amount of time pondering the question it occurs to me that if 4 and 6 bags are the only two satisfactory choices then the number of stickers must be 12 because any other common multiple of 4 and 6 would introduce one or more additional satisfactory numbers of bags. For example, 8 bags would also be a choice if 24 stickers were used.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #62
      Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

      Originally posted by USViking View Post
      The way the question is worded it is impossible to tell if 4 and 6 bags both satisfy the stipulated requirements. And if both 4 and 6 bags do satisfy the requirements it is impossible to tell if they are the only two which satisfy them. And anyone taking the test is going to waste at least some time wondering about such other missing information as number of friends, the number of stickers available, and whether each bag contains the the same number of stickers.

      Such ambiguity is not acceptable for an exam question at any level.

      After spending a ridiculous amount of time pondering the question it occurs to me that if 4 and 6 bags are the only two satisfactory choices then the number of stickers must be 12 because any other common multiple of 4 and 6 would introduce one or more additional satisfactory numbers of bags. For example, 8 bags would also be a choice if 24 stickers were used.
      I don't think that way of reasoning is correct. If all factors were listed then 2 and 3 (and 1?) should have been mentioned also, and they aren't. In my view it is no problem that 24 or 36 happen to have other factors. We have 4 or 6 bags, not 8: that's the information given, no alternatives possible.

      And wondering about the implications of the given information is kind of the point, I don't see that at all as "wasted time".

      As I said, I don't think the question is overly ambiguous. Perhaps get rid of the friends/bags confusion, though it was pretty clear for mean on first glance that Nbags = Nfriends is a good assumption to start with.

      That each bag contains the same number of stickers is a requirement when you assume that Nbags = Nfriends: when you want to distribute 4 or 6 bags to an equal amount of friends, you have no choice but to put the same number in each bag.
      Even when you don't assume that Nbags = Nfriends, but instead assume that each friends get the same amount of bags, you are still left with the worst cases of 4 and 6 friends, which again leads you to multiples of 12.



      So I'll give the opponents in this thread one point, caused by the bags/friends confusion: the question leaves open options where friends recieve a different amount of bags. For example she has 5 friends and gives 4 friends each 1 bag with 2 stickers and the last friend 2 bags with each 1 sticker, making a total of 10 stickers in 6 bags. This is a minor point though, because then it's no longer a question about factoring but about permutations. This entire test is about factoring, and the student will be working in that paradigm by question 15.

      A question to the opponents: if it said "each friend gets the same number of bags", would it then become a good question?
      Last edited by erikvv; 12-17-2013, 06:05 AM.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #63
        Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

        Originally posted by erikvv View Post
        A question to the opponents: if it said "4 or 6 friends" instead of "4 or 6 bags", would it be a good question?
        The question was fine as is, we are overthinking this problem, and the solution is not all that difficult. We picked the wrong math word problem to debate here when trying to illustrate that Common Core is problematic at best.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #64
          Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

          Here's the thing about students figuring out how to answer a quiz based on the setup of the quiz: online materials for quizes can be built by the teacher or even parents from a core of questions. Each question has to stand on its own as teachers and parents can build the quizes from the supply of questions and may deviate from the lesson plan. A crap question is a crap question.
          The language used in the juanita sticker question is the problem (it isn't fine).
          Should the children be learning math or how to pass a common core test?

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #65
            Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

            jarvis: factoring and recognizing prime numbers isn't math? So you're saying it IS witchcraft and sorcery?

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #66
              Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

              Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
              Here's the thing about students figuring out how to answer a quiz based on the setup of the quiz: online materials for quizes can be built by the teacher or even parents from a core of questions. Each question has to stand on its own as teachers and parents can build the quizes from the supply of questions and may deviate from the lesson plan. A crap question is a crap question.
              The language used in the juanita sticker question is the problem (it isn't fine).
              Should the children be learning math or how to pass a common core test?
              Those are different subjects, at least I think.

              If you really look at the question there is no other logical answer than "any factor of 12." The nature of the question tells us that of course the wording could be better, but there seems to be far worse out there when talking about what Common Core really does.

              Your question is a good one. But in context is just an evolution from another system. We just came off what can only be described as a decade experiment with No Child Left Behind. This sort of nonsense of teaching the test and not the subject existed then as well. Now we have the next evolution of the carrot from the Department of Education over the states to deal with. We already know that Common Core will result in teaching that is exclusive to passing the associated standard tests. There is no expectation that it can be otherwise given what we know NCLB to end up being educationally.

              Yes, they should be learning the subject. But more critically they should be learning key concepts like critical thought. The math word problem subject to this thread is a bad example of why Common Core will result in little, just as NCLB resulted in little. We already know why.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #67
                Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

                Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                Those are different subjects, at least I think.

                If you really look at the question there is no other logical answer than "any factor of 12." The nature of the question tells us that of course the wording could be better, but there seems to be far worse out there when talking about what Common Core really does.

                Your question is a good one. But in context is just an evolution from another system. We just came off what can only be described as a decade experiment with No Child Left Behind. This sort of nonsense of teaching the test and not the subject existed then as well. Now we have the next evolution of the carrot from the Department of Education over the states to deal with. We already know that Common Core will result in teaching that is exclusive to passing the associated standard tests. There is no expectation that it can be otherwise given what we know NCLB to end up being educationally.

                Yes, they should be learning the subject. But more critically they should be learning key concepts like critical thought. The math word problem subject to this thread is a bad example of why Common Core will result in little, just as NCLB resulted in little. We already know why.
                Having taken the taks and taas tests I can say that this common core test was MUCH better than those. I actually had to use a modicum of my brain on the test dan linked (granted I was baked and a little drunk but if that doesn't bring you down to the level of a 5th grader nothing will) and the only question that really stuck was the stickers question. But then I do philosophy not witchcraft :p
                Taken in context of a chapter test I don't see the problem with it. Of course the chapter test has the material from the chapter in it. IDK how else you can teach someone other than going by the numbers and slowly building a foundation. Granted there shoulda been more questions from other chapters to keep the knowledge fresh, but this seems more like a quiz than true test. Its only what 20 questions or so? That's a little low methinks.

                The problem with NCLB CC or any standardized test is it HAS to be standardized for the lowest common acceptable denominator. if say a c student is that, then the test is geared toward them. It would be difficult for that person, hard enough for them to miss 30% of the questions. WHich makes it childishly simple for someone who is an A student. Thems the breaks.
                I don't really see a way to provide a standard to test people against so you can say "this person has passed X grade/class" and that to mean the same thing nationwide. If you let the teachers have too much free rein you're going to get those who go easy to pad their average or because they are empathic etc. If you don't you end up with a test geared toward c students (sadly D students now I hear).
                What is the solution then?

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #68
                  Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

                  Originally posted by reality View Post
                  Having taken the taks and taas tests I can say that this common core test was MUCH better than those. I actually had to use a modicum of my brain on the test dan linked (granted I was baked and a little drunk but if that doesn't bring you down to the level of a 5th grader nothing will) and the only question that really stuck was the stickers question. But then I do philosophy not witchcraft :p
                  Taken in context of a chapter test I don't see the problem with it. Of course the chapter test has the material from the chapter in it. IDK how else you can teach someone other than going by the numbers and slowly building a foundation. Granted there shoulda been more questions from other chapters to keep the knowledge fresh, but this seems more like a quiz than true test. Its only what 20 questions or so? That's a little low methinks.
                  Perhaps so, I guess we could say Common Core is young enough to still effect change. I tend to agree with you that the question really only takes you to one plausible answer, but with this much discussion I feel we have no choice but to look for better phrasing of the math word problem here. In the context of what I was talking about foundation building in education is not that different in teaching the subject, or teaching the test. It is just the output ability of the student may suffer with a system designed around testing.

                  Originally posted by reality View Post
                  The problem with NCLB CC or any standardized test is it HAS to be standardized for the lowest common acceptable denominator. if say a c student is that, then the test is geared toward them. It would be difficult for that person, hard enough for them to miss 30% of the questions. WHich makes it childishly simple for someone who is an A student. Thems the breaks.
                  I don't really see a way to provide a standard to test people against so you can say "this person has passed X grade/class" and that to mean the same thing nationwide. If you let the teachers have too much free rein you're going to get those who go easy to pad their average or because they are empathic etc. If you don't you end up with a test geared toward c students (sadly D students now I hear).
                  What is the solution then?
                  This is another issue entirely. If you can make the argument that both NCLB and Common Core just educate our kids to the point of standardized tests... and you if you can argue we test to the lowest common acceptable denominator.... then you have to conclude all NCLB and Common Core did was educate to the lowest common denominator. Fan-fucking-tasitc!

                  But I do get the point, the solution that stands out is a system of education that it not designed around the standard for all, but the standard of education level by course and aptitude of the student. This might get complicated so bear with me. You could say all of these systems educate to a predetermined point that everyone should achieve at a minimum (lowest common accepted denominator) and at an age (or a grade level.) I say educate based on ability to other predetermined points. Say, based on subject curriculum and depth of study in them. The benefit is we could very early on separate low achievers from high achievers (perhaps even have 3 or more groups) and then educate those groups based on those differences. The overall expectation that each will finish education at different points. Perhaps better said at different depths of knowledge. The obvious negative to the whole thing is it will be difficult to move up that ladder if a child falls into the low achiever category early on. And of course there will be people screaming about rights for those with less scholastic aptitude. But the design would mean the lowest acceptable common denominator for both (or more) groups will be different than if they were weight averaged together as the entire group. We sort of do this now with advanced placement classes, but the standardization efforts of NCLB and Common Core are adversarial to what we have in place.

                  I think the Germans do this, where the hell is Voland when we need him?

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #69
                    Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

                    Originally posted by reality View Post
                    jarvis: factoring and recognizing prime numbers isn't math? So you're saying it IS witchcraft and sorcery?
                    Par4don me? When did I say that? Please cut the idiocy please. I worked in educational publishing myself for 20 plus years, specializing in matth and science (Ialso studied early common core standards). The question is malformed and incomplete.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #70
                      Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

                      Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                      Perhaps so, I guess we could say Common Core is young enough to still effect change. I tend to agree with you that the question really only takes you to one plausible answer, but with this much discussion I feel we have no choice but to look for better phrasing of the math word problem here. In the context of what I was talking about foundation building in education is not that different in teaching the subject, or teaching the test. It is just the output ability of the student may suffer with a system designed around testing.



                      This is another issue entirely. If you can make the argument that both NCLB and Common Core just educate our kids to the point of standardized tests... and you if you can argue we test to the lowest common acceptable denominator.... then you have to conclude all NCLB and Common Core did was educate to the lowest common denominator. Fan-fucking-tasitc!

                      But I do get the point, the solution that stands out is a system of education that it not designed around the standard for all, but the standard of education level by course and aptitude of the student. This might get complicated so bear with me. You could say all of these systems educate to a predetermined point that everyone should achieve at a minimum (lowest common accepted denominator) and at an age (or a grade level.) I say educate based on ability to other predetermined points. Say, based on subject curriculum and depth of study in them. The benefit is we could very early on separate low achievers from high achievers (perhaps even have 3 or more groups) and then educate those groups based on those differences. The overall expectation that each will finish education at different points. Perhaps better said at different depths of knowledge. The obvious negative to the whole thing is it will be difficult to move up that ladder if a child falls into the low achiever category early on. And of course there will be people screaming about rights for those with less scholastic aptitude. But the design would mean the lowest acceptable common denominator for both (or more) groups will be different than if they were weight averaged together as the entire group. We sort of do this now with advanced placement classes, but the standardization efforts of NCLB and Common Core are adversarial to what we have in place.

                      I think the Germans do this, where the hell is Voland when we need him?
                      IF what youre saying is sort them into groups then have different tests for each group AND raise the standards for said test to say 80% instead of 60% I agree.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #71
                        Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

                        Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                        Here's the thing about students figuring out how to answer a quiz based on the setup of the quiz: online materials for quizes can be built by the teacher or even parents from a core of questions. Each question has to stand on its own as teachers and parents can build the quizes from the supply of questions and may deviate from the lesson plan. A crap question is a crap question.
                        The language used in the juanita sticker question is the problem (it isn't fine).
                        Should the children be learning math or how to pass a common core test?
                        Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                        Par4don me? When did I say that? Please cut the idiocy please. I worked in educational publishing myself for 20 plus years, specializing in matth and science (Ialso studied early common core standards). The question is malformed and incomplete.
                        The bolded was a false dichotomy sorry I like to poke fun at stuff like that. They can learn math and the test especially since that is just a simple chapter test, which while not perfect is not the end of the world either, and not the final for the course.
                        We've discussed that one question could be better phrased but is still not unanswerable. That doesn't equate to everything you're talking about. If you've got more evidence please post it. I'd be interested to see every chapter test and the final.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #72
                          Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

                          Now I have spent an additional ridiculous amount of time on this problem. I am not sure how much longer I can stand to go on.

                          Originally posted by erikvv View Post
                          I don't think that way of reasoning is correct. If all factors were listed then 2 and 3 (and 1?) [not 1: the problem specifies plural friendS- USV] should have been mentioned also, and they aren't. In my view it is no problem that 24 or 36 happen to have other factors. We have 4 or 6 bags, not 8: that's the information given, no alternatives possible.
                          I believe my reasoning is sound if only bags and stickers are considered and I cannot think of a better way to express it.

                          However, your mentioning the factor 2 makes me realize my analysis was faulty because the number of friends must be considered.

                          If 4 and 6 are in an abstract mathematical sense the only possible numbers of bags, then the number of friends must be a common factor of 4 and 6. The only common factor of 4 and 6 is 2, so there are 2 friends. But 2 is a factor of all even numbers, so 4 and 6 cannot after all be the only possible numbers of bags, and we have arrived at a contradiction. The problem is incoherent if 4 and 6 are in an abstract mathematical sense presented as the only possible numbers of bags.

                          Now, what if the limit on the number of bags is physical and economic? What if the bags are available for purchase at only 4 to a box or 6 to a box, and Juanita has the money for no more than one box of 6. Since it does not matter if any bags are left over 2, 3 or 4 friends may be accommodated by 4 or 6 bags, and the correct number of stickers must be a multiple of 2, 3 and 4. That would be our familiar number 12 again, and the problem may be considered rescued. Sort of. I guess. Should a 5th grader really be expected to wade through all these mental gyrations?



                          Originally posted by erikvv View Post
                          And wondering about the implications of the given information is kind of the point, I don't see that at all as "wasted time".
                          “Implications” should be tailored to grade level. The test-takers are only ~10-11 years old, and I think it is fair to say the question with all its implications is adult-level.



                          Originally posted by erikvv View Post
                          As I said, I don't think the question is overly ambiguous. Perhaps get rid of the friends/bags confusion, though it was pretty clear for mean on first glance that Nbags = Nfriends is a good assumption to start with.
                          It is unstated and not inevitably deductible, hence not clear at all that Nbags=Nfriends. It is also questionable because the problem states that Juanita is “not sure if she needs four bags or six bags of stickers” and even a stupid 5th grader may be expected to realize that if she has 6 friends then 4 bags is not a possible choice.

                          Also, if Nbags = Nfriends then there are two answers: (1) 4N and (2)6N rather than 12N.



                          Originally posted by erikvv View Post
                          That each bag contains the same number of stickers is a requirement when you assume that Nbags = Nfriends: when you want to distribute 4 or 6 bags to an equal amount of friends, you have no choice but to put the same number in each bag.
                          OK.



                          Originally posted by erikvv View Post
                          Even when you don't assume that Nbags = Nfriends, but instead assume that each friends get the same amount of bags, you are still left with the worst cases of 4 and 6 friends, which again leads you to multiples of 12.
                          OK, but although the problem stipulates that the stickers must be divided evenly, there is no requirement that the bags be divided evenly, and if the bags are not divided evenly then 12N would be an incorrect answer because there are values other than 12 which will satisfy the requirements.



                          Originally posted by erikvv View Post
                          So I'll give the opponents in this thread one point, caused by the bags/friends confusion: the question leaves open options where friends recieve a different amount of bags. For example she has 5 friends and gives 4 friends each 1 bag with 2 stickers and the last friend 2 bags with each 1 sticker, making a total of 10 stickers in 6 bags. This is a minor point though, because then it's no longer a question about factoring but about permutations. This entire test is about factoring, and the student will be working in that paradigm by question 15.
                          No, the entire test is not about factoring. And even if it was the student does not deserve to be led astray by ambiguously questions.



                          Originally posted by erikvv View Post
                          A question to the opponents: if it said "each friend gets the same number of bags", would it then become a good question?
                          No, no need to even mention friends.

                          This would be a reasonable question:

                          Serena wants enough stickers to put an equal number in four bags or to put an equal number in six bags. How many stickers should she buy so either requirement can be met with no stickers left over?

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #73
                            Re: Common Core Math: Do you have the answer?

                            I think you're overthinking it.

                            It clearly states she needs either 4 or 6 bags and that she is dividing equally. so the common factor of 4 and 6 that divides equally (12 total stickers 3 for 4, and 2 for 6).
                            Perhaps she has not received all the RSVPs yet but knows either 4 or 6 will come (perhaps 2 of her friends are siblings? Twins shall we say?) there done no more thought necessary.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?

                            Working...
                            X