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Another sign of the deconstruction of America

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  • #16
    Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
    I would think that many of them have not choice in the matter. As the non gang members who live in inner city gang areas have no choice. Where are they gonna go?

    So if we waged a war on gangs, and sent armed drones into the inner city, to take out the thugs, the collateral damage would not bother you, innocents being killed?

    We are killing innocents, as the radical kill innocents as they did on 9-11. How are we really any different, objectively? We are not different. But to justify it, some people will write what you did, which hardly justifies anything, except your own personal beliefs.

    I am all for going after those who want to kill us, and are planning to do just that. Yet if we do it in the same manner as the radicals, we are no better than they are. But with rationalization we can perhaps delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.
    It the "innocent civilians" would take out the bad guys themselves, there would be no problem. The thing is, they don't. In fact they support them either by actively aiding them or by passively not opposing them.

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    • #17
      Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
      It the "innocent civilians" would take out the bad guys themselves, there would be no problem. The thing is, they don't. In fact they support them either by actively aiding them or by passively not opposing them.
      I don't think it is that simple, or as cut and dried as you wish to believe oldman. Not every human being will place his life and the life of his family on the line, to fight against someone in their own religion, who doesn't believe as he does. I have spoken out against the good muslims not speaking out in droves against the radical murderers. But perhaps if you lived in that part of the world, you might develop a different understanding and attitude. If you had to actually risk yourself and your family, against a certain threat, as opposed to taking a chance that you will not be near by when a drone bombs a radical, you might very well do what these other muslims are doing. Choosing the uncertain, over the certain. Most humans would do this, IMO. Take the roll of the dice in place of a dead certainty. You cannot blame even muslims for doing what is logical, when it comes to their lives.

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      • #18
        Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
        It the "innocent civilians" would take out the bad guys themselves, there would be no problem. The thing is, they don't. In fact they support them either by actively aiding them or by passively not opposing them.
        Ok then how about you go out and fight crime?
        The problem with armed uprisings is they are filled with the type who will not hesitate to beat up or worse your entire family if you defy them and most people would rather not see Nan beaten to a bloody pulp.
        This may sound odd but most people just want to get on with life and go to work does that make them bad people?

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        • #19
          Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

          Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
          Ok then how about you go out and fight crime?
          The problem with armed uprisings is they are filled with the type who will not hesitate to beat up or worse your entire family if you defy them and most people would rather not see Nan beaten to a bloody pulp.
          This may sound odd but most people just want to get on with life and go to work does that make them bad people?
          First, if gang members decided to invade my neighborhood, I can assure you they would not last very long. We, collectively, would eliminate the threat one way or another. The way I see it, the people these terrorists hang around are at the least sympathizers and most are supporters.

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          • #20
            Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

            Oh really you honestly think you'd stop an armed uprising and not worry about them randomly beating people for interfering? You think the people in places like Ukraine could stop this if only they were as strong willed as you?
            It's easy to talk tough on a forum but these people have families to protect and that tends to dampen enthusiasm for heroism.

            OMD the superhero, he'll save us all.
            I love the way you think a group of old guys with however many guns could help to hold off a serious attempt to take over a nation. We are not talking about local toughs who will run at the first sign of resistance here we are talking serious people with the firepower to match against a civilian population unused to war.

            Not everyone is tough and fearless like you Dan.
            Last edited by PeterUK75; 03-02-2014, 11:46 AM.

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            • #21
              Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

              This is just another version of If you're not with us you against us that fails to take into account that a vast majority don't want to be part of either side and just get on with life.

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              • #22
                Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

                Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                You do know what the term innocent civilians means don't you Dan?
                Would you instantly move away if conflict erupted around you as it seems you think anyone who simply lives in a conflict zone is automatically helping one side or the other.
                If they are helping they are collaborators if not they are innocent civilians.

                See the difference?
                So then, why did we collectively bomb Dresden? Why did the US drop nuclear bombs on Hisroshima, and Nakasaki?

                Maybe a better question for Europeans is----------->we don't have to use nuclear bombs, but if we really want a semblance of world peace, why don't we collectively light up the Middle East? Hey guys; it isn't us bombing your subways and people movers, and it isn't you flying planes into buildings in New York, or using shoe and underwear bombers to terrorize us.

                If we fought WWII this way, most of Europe would be praying to the fuerher still, before they turned the lights out to go to bed.

                Here is the real deal for lovers-------->we support our military, Britain supports its military, in fact most if not all of Western Europe supports its military. And so, people who do not like any of us, attack us, so we will STOP supporting our military and demand a solution. Your countrymen die so as they can attempt to change public opinion.

                Who here believes that in these terrorist countries, most of the people do NOT support the terrorists against Western democracies? I didn't see people in Britain, France, Poland, dancing in the streets when our towers were attacked. Nor did I see them dancing in the streets when the London subway was attacked. But, I did see them dancing and screaming all about Allah from the Middle East.

                Civilian casualties? Better them, than us. Light them up!

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                • #23
                  Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

                  I don't believe most people in Muslim nations support terrorism any more than most Irish people supported it.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

                    Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                    I don't believe most people in Muslim nations support terrorism any more than most Irish people supported it.
                    Then, let me ask the million dollar question-------> Do you actually believe that most Germans supported the Nazi state, and if not, why did we BOTH collectively FIRE bomb Dresden and other German cities for maximum civilian effect? In fact, weren't these German manufacturing centers being populated by slave labor?

                    Now in fairness to those reading this---------->I am not a heartless person. Those who died being forced to work for the Nazi regime have my sympathies, as much as those Germans who hated Hitler. But that is not the point! What ended up saving more lives in the end? Forcing them to capitulate as fast as possible, or playing games?

                    Besides our countries Peter, who cared about the 3000 killed in towers, or the hundreds killed in the tubes in your country? You know what, not one of them fired a shot in any of these disagreements, they were civilians........and not even creating weapons of war for military to use to boot. It was all a political exercise to get people from both our countries to cease, and desist.

                    Again, no offense, but better their civilians than mine or yours. I don't like the options at all, but while I may disagree with you on many things, I want you with me when the smoke clears, instead of them......period.

                    When it is over, I am not going to slap you around and make you see it my way, or vice-versa. The same can not be said for them Peter. That is why we stand together, although in many instances, we disagree.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

                      I don't believe most Germans supported the Nazis.
                      We bombed cities as that was where the manufacturing was. If we had had smart bombs at the time we wouldn't have used saturation bombing.
                      Thinking everyone who just wants nothing to do with a conflict and just happens to live in enemy territory is the enemy by default is pure madness.

                      Again I ask was everyone in Ireland who didn't go out and hunt down terrorists from either side also a terrorist?

                      Lastly I think your doing a disservice to the other countries involved in Iraq and Afghanistan.
                      I know Canada made a large contribution considering the population of Canada and suffered many unfortunate casualties and deaths.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

                        Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                        I don't believe most people in Muslim nations support terrorism any more than most Irish people supported it.
                        I keep hearing that meme but it seem there is more and more of the bad guys every day. If these terrorists are truly a tiny minority, it shouldn't be any big deal to wipe them out. Drive them back into the mountains. The truth is, these people support the terrorists. They believe that Islam requires them to wipe out all the infidels.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Another sign of the deconstruction of America

                          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                          I keep hearing that meme but it seem there is more and more of the bad guys every day. If these terrorists are truly a tiny minority, it shouldn't be any big deal to wipe them out. Drive them back into the mountains. The truth is, these people support the terrorists. They believe that Islam requires them to wipe out all the infidels.
                          Exactly! Maybe Peter and others can tell us all, why there is such a small band of terrorists, but they keep blowing stuff up. They keep terrorizing populations? (or they think they do)

                          This is not a game called X-Box, or even PS3-4. This is real people, OUR people, dying. And you know what, most of them are unarmed civilians, who have absolutely nothing to do with a war machine.

                          And then Peter, you keep bringing up Ireland. I am not exactly privy to that whole terrible incident. All I know is that Ireland wasn't fighting a war for 1000 years, so their problem could probably be solved through politics.

                          As far as Canada, Britain, France, Australia, and anyone else who lost people in Iraq or Afghanistan................. and yes, even the USA--------> it is no longer about winning a war; thanks to people like we see sometimes on this board. Rather, it is about politics, and how the world sees OUR/YOUR war, and is it just, and are we fighting the right way.

                          Do we sacrifice our men/women in uniform from ANY country, to look good, and proper. I have a strong feeling that the mothers, wives, children, and even fathers/husbands of those lost would say no, HELL NO! Losing a battle because we put everything we had to bear upon the enemy is noble, and understandable. Saying we didn't have enough to win that battle makes those at home find peace.

                          But, to say all that could have been brought to bear on the enemy was not for political reasons of world acceptance is a joke. Who amongst you is willing to lose your son, your daughter, your father, your mother, your husband, your wife.........just so people across the globe can feel good about the war you waging? If my country goes to war, I do not care who likes it, I just want my people to come home. I am sure that goes for every country on this globe.

                          I would ask people who think like Peter, to contemplate this------------> what country would oppose our coalition for their own advancement, if we were not expected in war to be so surgical? What if the citizens of that country (ies) knew that it was a reasonably high probability, that they to would get lit up also!

                          Is it not funny that we proclaim our wish to have "fair and decent war," while our enemies do everything in their power to bring "the war" to unarmed civilians.

                          While I am not telling you that I think a great option, is to "light up" their civilian population one time. I do believe that if you want their own populace to demonstrate and be against a war, then you need to make them feel the pain we feel, when thousands of unarmed civilians die, and on television, they celebrate in the streets because of it!

                          Who/whom amongst you seen a rebuttal from the Western powers as they celebrated as our/your people died and they celebrated, right, in front, of your faces? What if that had been reversed? What would the world have thought if we/you killed thousands? This is why WE need stick together. We know that being PC doesn't work, if we love our soldiers, and yes, one another.......even across the pond.

                          Eventually, we are going to have to LIGHT THEM UP to change things, and we will have nobody else but each other, to say it was the correct thing to do, we had to do it, and we don't feel badly about it either.
                          Last edited by Imawhosure; 03-02-2014, 01:39 PM.

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