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Education In America

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  • Originally posted by redrover View Post

    I think the people who created it got exactly what they wanted. Teaching to the test and punishment for poorly performing schools. If you want to see what a successful approach to education looks like you should watch Michael Moore's movie, Where to invade next.
    NCLB didn't work for the same reason Obama's efforts - Common Core - didn't work. They both call for testing students to evaluate teachers. Teachers and their unions oppose any such efforts.

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    • Originally posted by Brexx View Post

      NCLB didn't work for the same reason Obama's efforts - Common Core - didn't work. They both call for testing students to evaluate teachers. Teachers and their unions oppose any such efforts.
      As an old physical education guy I was of the school of thought that held that the mind can only absorb as much as the rear end can endure, I used to be able to cite studies that show that students do better with an hour a day of physical education though that means less time spent on book learnin' Kind of depends on what you want real education or test scores.

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      • Originally posted by redrover View Post
        As an old physical education guy I was of the school of thought that held that the mind can only absorb as much as the rear end can endure, I used to be able to cite studies that show that students do better with an hour a day of physical education though that means less time spent on book learnin' Kind of depends on what you want real education or test scores.
        First you have to define what a real education is, then you have to test to see if you are getting it. The stats, as shown in my earlier post, show that a very large percentage of our students are not getting what anyone would consider a "real education".

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        • Originally posted by Brexx View Post

          First you have to define what a real education is, then you have to test to see if you are getting it. The stats, as shown in my earlier post, show that a very large percentage of our students are not getting what anyone would consider a "real education".
          No getting around tests, it's true. Link on a big turnaround -one of the poorest performing districts, to one doing much better:
          Sanger’s approach flies in the face of most district reform efforts. Rather than adopting new curriculum and monitoring fidelity or bringing in private vendors, top Sanger leaders set out to fundamentally change the culture of the district: • From focus on adults to focus on students • From following textbooks to diagnosing student needs • From professional isolation to collaboration and shared responsibility • From top-down to reciprocal accountability • From leaders as managers to leaders of learning...
          https://web.stanford.edu/group/suse-...2010-14-12.pdf

          OTOH, diagnosing individual student needs sounds like some cutting-edge stuff (or, as some righties might say, "feel good, kumbaya mush"). It isn't cutting edge; this was a common strategy by competent teachers in the old style "one room school house". I didn't 'get' math until I was in a class with fewer students, and the instructor had time to diagnose my problem because he grouped other students (on a faster track) into "self study" groups. Sent them up the hill to run punch cards into computers, honing their skills for entry into what would become computer science. He turned his attention to my issue, using a clock (base 12) and throwing algebra out the window for a moment. He got through, I tested better in math than in language for entrance exams to the U a year later. It seemed weird to me at the time, until I realized he was a master at his craft, who learned from all the student quirks that were thrown his way over the decades. Along with more than a few others, I got the benefit. But he probably shared a lot of tactics with "school house marms" in his use of patience, peer teaching, small class size and diagnosis.

          The objective is, to supply every student at least one teacher of that quality, in each major field of study (language, civics, math, science, physical ed and music), at least once during each level -elementary, middle school and high school. Can't find enuf gifted teachers for every class and grade, but providing one on occasion can help the student identify what works best for them, which in turn helps them learn even with mediocre teachers.

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          • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
            No getting around tests, it's true. Link on a big turnaround -one of the poorest performing districts, to one doing much better:
            https://web.stanford.edu/group/suse-...2010-14-12.pdf

            OTOH, diagnosing individual student needs sounds like some cutting-edge stuff (or, as some righties might say, "feel good, kumbaya mush"). It isn't cutting edge; this was a common strategy by competent teachers in the old style "one room school house". I didn't 'get' math until I was in a class with fewer students, and the instructor had time to diagnose my problem because he grouped other students (on a faster track) into "self study" groups. Sent them up the hill to run punch cards into computers, honing their skills for entry into what would become computer science. He turned his attention to my issue, using a clock (base 12) and throwing algebra out the window for a moment. He got through, I tested better in math than in language for entrance exams to the U a year later. It seemed weird to me at the time, until I realized he was a master at his craft, who learned from all the student quirks that were thrown his way over the decades. Along with more than a few others, I got the benefit. But he probably shared a lot of tactics with "school house marms" in his use of patience, peer teaching, small class size and diagnosis.

            The objective is, to supply every student at least one teacher of that quality, in each major field of study (language, civics, math, science, physical ed and music), at least once during each level -elementary, middle school and high school. Can't find enuf gifted teachers for every class and grade, but providing one on occasion can help the student identify what works best for them, which in turn helps them learn even with mediocre teachers.
            If it works well I like it. Smaller class sizes and more gifted teachers would obviously make a big improvement, but would require much more funding. I remember Obama putting more money into education, but it doesn't seem to have done any good.

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            • Originally posted by Brexx View Post

              If it works well I like it. Smaller class sizes and more gifted teachers would obviously make a big improvement, but would require much more funding. I remember Obama putting more money into education, but it doesn't seem to have done any good.
              I 've heard that argument before. W e tried putting money into education. Now let's see what happens if we deny funding. For years I was told to do more with less. Tell it to the teachers in Oklahoma and Arizona.

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              • Originally posted by redrover View Post

                I 've heard that argument before. W e tried putting money into education. Now let's see what happens if we deny funding. For years I was told to do more with less. Tell it to the teachers in Oklahoma and Arizona.
                I'm not arguing for less funding, but reform it first, then fund it.

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                • Originally posted by Brexx View Post

                  I'm not arguing for less funding, but reform it first, then fund it.
                  Some reforms could be done with no money, while others could only be done with additional funds. Smaller class size is one example that will cost more money. The whole issue is in need of a good audit; it might be possible to get everything done on the same budget, just re-allocate resources. One idea: Allow teachers to directly reduce their income tax by %105 of the amount they spend out of pocket for class supplies. If that reduction is split between federal and state gov't. (income or sales tax), the burden on gov't. revenue should be tolerable, with better results for students.

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                  • In fact the majority of educational funding doesn't come from the federal government. That was one of the problems of No Child Left Behind. Bush put in this new program and then never provided the money to implement it.Another unfunded mandate.

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                    • Originally posted by redrover View Post
                      In fact the majority of educational funding doesn't come from the federal government. That was one of the problems of No Child Left Behind. Bush put in this new program and then never provided the money to implement it.Another unfunded mandate.
                      IMO, the biggest issue with funding for education is how most counties/states pay for it. Rather than pool funds state-wide to ensure each student gets the same investment (=opportunity), it tends to be proportional to real estate value per school district. Wealthy fund better schools, poor get poor schools. Overall, we get poor results, with the wealthier paying extra tax to welfare and incarceration programs in the longer run. Since we didn't invest in all students equally from the start, we pay later on to keep the poorly-educated out of the way (unemployed and semi-skilled at best), in prisons or blighted neighborhoods.

                      Rather than consider this part of the issue, the right notes family dysfunction as a major reason for poverty, while ignoring the imbalance in education infrastructure. A child needs a decent education first, then we can honestly judge the impact of family dysfunction on the adolescent graduating from high school. Equal funding for each student, with the states petitioning the federal gov't. to "round up" to a minimal level, so each student gets a decent education.

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                      • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                        IMO, the biggest issue with funding for education is how most counties/states pay for it. Rather than pool funds state-wide to ensure each student gets the same investment (=opportunity), it tends to be proportional to real estate value per school district. Wealthy fund better schools, poor get poor schools. Overall, we get poor results, with the wealthier paying extra tax to welfare and incarceration programs in the longer run. Since we didn't invest in all students equally from the start, we pay later on to keep the poorly-educated out of the way (unemployed and semi-skilled at best), in prisons or blighted neighborhoods.

                        Rather than consider this part of the issue, the right notes family dysfunction as a major reason for poverty, while ignoring the imbalance in education infrastructure. A child needs a decent education first, then we can honestly judge the impact of family dysfunction on the adolescent graduating from high school. Equal funding for each student, with the states petitioning the federal gov't. to "round up" to a minimal level, so each student gets a decent education.
                        It seems wrong to me to hold the educational system accountable for these factors out of their control. At one time school was safest place in the lives of many children. Much safer than their miserable homes. Conservatives will hate this but I can't think of anything to do about the problems but throw more money at them.

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                        • I think Charter schools are the worst education trend currently sucking up public money.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVYUTkYW4u4

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                          • Originally posted by redrover View Post
                            I think Charter schools are the worst education trend currently sucking up public money.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVYUTkYW4u4
                            That video did not make a case against charter schools. Why do you think they are the worst trend in education?

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                            • Originally posted by redrover View Post

                              It seems wrong to me to hold the educational system accountable for these factors out of their control. At one time school was safest place in the lives of many children. Much safer than their miserable homes. Conservatives will hate this but I can't think of anything to do about the problems but throw more money at them.
                              IF "safety" is your concern, hire armed security: Either military reserves or off-duty police.

                              IF academic acumen is your concern, listen to those who DO NOT have a vested interest in keeping the status quo. Even our little corner of the world here, a lot of creative and, likely, effective ideas are generated but no one wants to listen.

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                              • Originally posted by Brexx View Post

                                That video did not make a case against charter schools. Why do you think they are the worst trend in education?
                                Because they divert money away from public eduvation and don't produce better results. Yes there are creative ideas and if you would like to take a risk and step outside of your bubble for a couple of hours long enough to watch this movie. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4897822/ No doubt you would hate the socialist tone but there are many educational ideas that would thrive within a capitalist system.https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4897822/

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