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The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

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  • The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

    Koodos to Bernie Sanders who, in his first appearance on Meet The Press, called out the shadowy Koch brothers for their destructive agenda to destroy the American mide class and possibly American democracy itself.
    The Kock brothers operate in secret and there is no parallel on the left. Absolutely none. I don't even think many of the right wingers on this form would agree with their radical agenda which will destroy most of the social safety net in America.
    It's about time they started getting some main stream media attention. As long as Citizens United is in effect I'm afraid shadowy figures like these will continue to be able to destroy your country.
    In His First Appearance On Meet The Press Bernie Sanders Terrifies The Koch Brothers
    Sen. Sanders said, “Chuck, I think Citizens United will go down in history as one of the worst Supreme Court decisions ever. I think it is opening up the road to oligarchy in the United States of America, where the billionaires like the Koch brothers….left or right, but it’s mostly right let’s be clear.”

    Sanders continued, “The Koch brothers are going to spend $400 million. Do you know what their agenda is? Do you know what they believe in? Let me tell you what they believe in. This is what they told us. They want to end Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. More tax breaks for the rich and large corporations. Nobody in America wants that except the billionaire class, and yet they are now able to put hundreds of billions of dollars into the political process. This is a real danger to American democracy.”

  • #2
    Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

    Originally posted by Danny View Post
    Koodos to Bernie Sanders who, in his first appearance on Meet The Press, called out the shadowy Koch brothers for their destructive agenda to destroy the American mide class and possibly American democracy itself.
    The Kock brothers operate in secret and there is no parallel on the left. Absolutely none. I don't even think many of the right wingers on this form would agree with their radical agenda which will destroy most of the social safety net in America.
    It's about time they started getting some main stream media attention. As long as Citizens United is in effect I'm afraid shadowy figures like these will continue to be able to destroy your country.
    In His First Appearance On Meet The Press Bernie Sanders Terrifies The Koch Brothers
    Except for one thing, Danny. It's not founded in fact.


    http://blamethe1st.deviantart.com/ar...ions-259080043

    As you can see by the chart here, we have far more to fear from labor unions than the Koch brothers. Wouldn't you agree?

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

      Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
      Except for one thing, Danny. It's not founded in fact.


      http://blamethe1st.deviantart.com/ar...ions-259080043

      As you can see by the chart here, we have far more to fear from labor unions than the Koch brothers. Wouldn't you agree?
      And this picture tells you the over the counter money... The money the idiots see...

      Because of the SC decision we don't see the estimated $407 million they spent 2011-2012... This is the dark money...

      It is not all right wing money, the left are doing it too.. Both sides are playing by new rules, bad rules for everyone...

      I certain ways the Kochs are doing everyone a favour... They have shown how bad the rules are when two guys who showed their views to be extreme and only shared with a small minority can yield so much power.

      Kind of defeats the whole 'All men are created equal....'

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

        Originally posted by CowboyTed View Post
        And this picture tells you the over the counter money... The money the idiots see...

        Because of the SC decision we don't see the estimated $407 million they spent 2011-2012... This is the dark money...

        It is not all right wing money, the left are doing it too.. Both sides are playing by new rules, bad rules for everyone...

        I certain ways the Kochs are doing everyone a favour... They have shown how bad the rules are when two guys who showed their views to be extreme and only shared with a small minority can yield so much power.

        Kind of defeats the whole 'All men are created equal....'
        If you want to make those claims against the Koch brothers, then you surely can make exactly the same claims against Soros and Lewis and the rest of that.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

          Originally posted by CowboyTed View Post
          And this picture tells you the over the counter money... The money the idiots see...
          Oh, you must mean the tens of millions that George Soros spends... most of it illegally.

          No?

          Oh... you must mean the tens of millions of in-kind paid "volunteer" hours that the unions spend on Democratic GOTV.

          No?

          Oh, then you have to mean the millions spent in 'walking around money' the Democrats put out on the streets of the inter-cities to bribe errr... 'encourage' people to get out and vote.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

            Originally posted by Danny View Post
            Koodos to Bernie Sanders who, in his first appearance on Meet The Press, called out the shadowy Koch brothers for their destructive agenda to destroy the American mide class and possibly American democracy itself.
            The Kock brothers operate in secret and there is no parallel on the left. Absolutely none. I don't even think many of the right wingers on this form would agree with their radical agenda which will destroy most of the social safety net in America.
            It's about time they started getting some main stream media attention. As long as Citizens United is in effect I'm afraid shadowy figures like these will continue to be able to destroy your country.
            In His First Appearance On Meet The Press Bernie Sanders Terrifies The Koch Brothers
            Look, this class of people like the Koch brothers live an a very exclusive elite bubble. They have no clue, they cannot relate to anyone that is not of their exclusive bubble. They are detached from the lives of the majority of the people on this earth. And so their self interests many times is opposed to the self interest of most other people, yet by their power which comes from wealth and the way wealth is worshipped as almost a god, they can buy the policy that fulfills their own selfishness. And when this is done, you move from a republic by and for the people into something totally different, an oligarchy, which is fascism.

            In most cases the only way to become wealthy, especially to the degree that a billionaire is wealthy, is only through exploiting other humans. Capitalism as we know it is grounded in exploitation, for only through exploitation can anyone be wealthy. For exploitation happens when one person, or a small group eat most of the cake that they only had a part in mixing and baking. The actual labor of what it takes to make the cake is seen is far less important than what the owner contributed to the cake. Who decides the value of the owner versus the value of the laborer? If the laborer has any say so, this is immediately called a bad name like socialism, communism, or some other ism. And so ONLY the owner has a say in how much labor keeps for making the cake, and how much the guy who watched them make it keeps. This underlies what we know as capitalism, but it is exploitative in nature...and so exploitation of other human beings becomes acceptable, if you do not accept it, you are the enemy to capitalism. That it's sheer nonsense is not noticed by many people, in fact, you are not supposed to even question it, for then you are breaking some sacred code. But since the owner is the creator of the code, out of his own selfish self interest, the game becomes rigged, with all the power being in the hands of the top elite, who is now buying policy so that he can get even more richer, which means he is allowed to exploit other people ever greater. And then some of us see this is GOOD, when in fact, it has never been anything other than evil.

            We don't really know what is good and what is evil, and that is the problem. It allows people like the Koch brothers to exist. To defend great wealth is nothing more than a defense of human exploitation. You can put lipstick on it, but you are still putting lipstick on a pig, no matter how clever and cunning your rationalization is. Most things that are evil can cleverly be rationalized by a cunning brain. Some people get paid lots of money for doing this. By the time they get through, they have twisted reality around so that exploitation no longer exists, when if fact, it has always existed when it comes to divvying up the money. Of course we don't call it exploitation, but substitute a much more benign term like, "good business" .
            Last edited by Blue Doggy; 09-14-2014, 08:08 PM.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

              Originally posted by Danny View Post
              Koodos to Bernie Sanders who, in his first appearance on Meet The Press, called out the shadowy Koch brothers for their destructive agenda to destroy the American mide class and possibly American democracy itself.
              The Kock brothers operate in secret and there is no parallel on the left. Absolutely none. I don't even think many of the right wingers on this form would agree with their radical agenda which will destroy most of the social safety net in America.
              It's about time they started getting some main stream media attention. As long as Citizens United is in effect I'm afraid shadowy figures like these will continue to be able to destroy your country.
              In His First Appearance On Meet The Press Bernie Sanders Terrifies The Koch Brothers
              This should be moved to the "Dumb Things Liberals Say" thread.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

                All this proves is just that money completely dominates your system and both sides are now slaves to raising campaign funds.

                I have pointed out before that the UK can run entire general election campaigns for all parties on a tiny fraction of what either side spends even after any consideration for the size differences of out 2 countries but I'm just told it's not a problem.

                All you have to do is see just how many fundraisers the President is doing while he ahould be doing the job you pay him for to see just how bad it is now. I don't expect whoever you vote in next regardless of party will cut back as the money has to keep rolling in.

                This is not a party politics problem it's a systemic problem that needs a concerted effort to sort out and find a way to run you parties without the need to spend over a Billion dollars for each party at each election.

                You don't need that much money to run a campaign and anyone who says that a campaign that has had to raise a Billion dollars hasn't made some pretty hefty promises to get it is deluding themselves.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

                  Originally posted by Danny View Post
                  The Kock brothers operate in secret and there is no parallel on the left. Absolutely none.
                  Absolutely untrue as others have pointed out in the thread (and all over the interwebs).
                  Let's face it if their name didn't rhyme with cock so well most libs wouldn't be able to remember their name.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

                    Originally posted by tsquare View Post
                    Oh, you must mean the tens of millions that George Soros spends... most of it illegally.

                    No?

                    Oh... you must mean the tens of millions of in-kind paid "volunteer" hours that the unions spend on Democratic GOTV.

                    No?

                    Oh, then you have to mean the millions spent in 'walking around money' the Democrats put out on the streets of the inter-cities to bribe errr... 'encourage' people to get out and vote.
                    There is no difference basically between the Kochs and the man you mentioned. Neither one of these people really give a damn about anything but their own pile of gold. So gold is their god, and that is all they will ever serve. I would bet both are sociopaths, and that the number of sociopaths that are wealthy is fairly high, much greater than what occurs naturally in a population.

                    Of course when sociopaths, who are mentally ill run nations, how can you expect average people to fair well at all? If these men were to have undue influence upon a nation the "tell" would be the disparity in income, especially if it were a this level, but increased to a different level, with the benefit going to the top. I think this is obvious, and a litmus test.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

                      Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                      All this proves is just that money completely dominates your system and both sides are now slaves to raising campaign funds.

                      I have pointed out before that the UK can run entire general election campaigns for all parties on a tiny fraction of what either side spends even after any consideration for the size differences of out 2 countries but I'm just told it's not a problem.

                      All you have to do is see just how many fundraisers the President is doing while he ahould be doing the job you pay him for to see just how bad it is now. I don't expect whoever you vote in next regardless of party will cut back as the money has to keep rolling in.

                      This is not a party politics problem it's a systemic problem that needs a concerted effort to sort out and find a way to run you parties without the need to spend over a Billion dollars for each party at each election.

                      You don't need that much money to run a campaign and anyone who says that a campaign that has had to raise a Billion dollars hasn't made some pretty hefty promises to get it is deluding themselves.
                      Yes, it does indeed dominate our system, and it is what turned us from a republic into an oligarchy. Which BTW, MSM totally ignored when a study basically said that this has happened. But the big money also owns the media, so....what would one expect?

                      Washington DC runs on legal bribery, which if you did that in the private sector so brazenly, we would imprison those people. We have confused money with free speech, and couldn't intelligently discern the difference, but bribery helped out in the inability to discern.

                      Yet have not wealthy men always held the power, historically, going back to the beginning of civilization? In the US, certain men knew this and tried hard to move away from it, the Roosevelts come to mind, but even when a movement was made in such a direction, all it took was time in order for the wealthy to wrench back control, by the men who are supposed to represent the people, our elected leaders.

                      Never ever underestimate the power of human stupidity nor the power of great wealth. For both are such powerful entities, and its best that people just not recognize the truth of existence. We even have an ideology, called conservatism that goes to great measures to deny the obvious, with clever and cunning arguments, refined over a hundred years or more. And apparently the propaganda works so well that you will have average people who are not rich, drinking that elite created Kool Aid as they only recognize the kool aid drinkers from the other opposing ideological tribe.

                      That these average people buy into an ideology that is not in their own best interest is the power of human stupidity, of brain created ideals that are out of touch, disconnected from reality. I am not claiming that modern liberalism is any different, as it can be just as destructive for I see little difference between it and conservatism. There used to be a great difference between the older liberalism of the 30s and 40s, but all of this changed IMO, in 1980. The cons were already in the hands of big money, and this is when the dems joined in with them, joined in with the corporations, the bankers, the elites, and totally deserted the working American, deserted the interests of the majority of people in this nation.

                      I really have no time for either the cons or the libs. For at the deepest level they are not different, in that both have given the keys over to a small group of very rich people, corporations, bankers and operate only in the interest of those people, while still trying to maintain an illusion that the People matter, that the rule of law matters, when it fact neither are really of much consequence at all. Lip service is given of course to those principles, but only to keep the illusion alive and well, and the rich getting richer on the backs of average people who have to work for a living.

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                      • #12
                        Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

                        Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
                        Except for one thing, Danny. It's not founded in fact.


                        http://blamethe1st.deviantart.com/ar...ions-259080043

                        As you can see by the chart here, we have far more to fear from labor unions than the Koch brothers. Wouldn't you agree?


                        This is the kind of misinformation that the right puts out and that takes an order of magnitude more effort to refute.

                        CHART: Koch Spends More Than Double Top Ten Unions Combined |


                        How can these charts be so different? How can the right be so clueless as to thing that Soros is somehow on the same level. Neither the left nor the right should be a into able to dump unlimited corporate money into politics. But the right has faaaaar more ability to do so.

                        The Wall Street Journal’s Kimberley Strassel either has no understanding of campaign finance, or is willfully misleading her readers. In either case, her column today about the Koch brothers’ political spending — which parrots a meme that has bounced around conservative blogs and websites like a bad chain e-mail — gets the facts about Koch spending versus union spending completely wrong.

                        In her column, “The Really Big Money? Not the Kochs,” Strassel cites a Center for Responsive Politics list to claim that unions “collectively spent $620,873,623 more than Koch Industries” on political races. Of course, if you actually visit this page on the CRP website, the list runs below a disclaimer noting that it does not include certain Super PAC spending or most undisclosed dark money spending, the preferred route for the Koch brothers for decades. In fact, the CRP site notes that union spending might appear inflated since unions traditional PAC spending is coupled with outside Super PAC spending. For the purposes of this chart, union spending is inflated compared to the giving of companies like Koch or Super PAC donors like Sheldon Adelson.

                        For the last election, Koch PAC spent $4.9 million in disclosed contributions (figures that appear on the chart referenced by Strassel). But they also spent over $407 million on undisclosed campaign entities, which does not show up in the CRP chart.

                        Republic Report broke down the figures for the last election and found that Koch groups alone spent more than double the combined political spending (including to undisclosed group) for the top ten unions combined. The chart includes union spending on dark money Democratic groups and Koch spending on dark money groups like Americans for Prosperity.

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                        • #13
                          Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

                          Those who will hate, will hate.

                          Danny and Ted are obviously concerned that the Koch Industries will outspend Soros (et al).

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                          • #14
                            Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

                            Danny woud there be a peep out of you on this issue if it were reversed?

                            What about the huge value in NBC,ABC,CBS,PBS, and even FOX having so much programming that favors liberal ideals? Isn't that even more invisible?

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                            • #15
                              Re: The Koch Brothers and the danger they represent get called out on MTP

                              This is becoming an absurd conversation, but is showing well what happens when bad decisions are left to the Supreme Court to figure out. While all of that spending may not influence my individual vote, it is naive to suggest that all that spending has no impact on how elections turn out *and* what political payoff strings come with all of that money. One key problem is every time a Democrat, a liberal, or a supporter of gets up and mentions The Koch Brothers they are being hypocritical. We know that the Koch Brothers lean towards Libertarianism. We know that their spending tends to support the idea of less government, less cost for government, less intrusion into our lives. That is not entirely a bad political lean to have these days given where this nation is today in unfunded liabilities, the fiscal size of our government today, and the debt we run.

                              According to Forbes as of early 2014 (Q1) our unfunded liabilities is now exceeds $127 Trillion. I think the number is lower but still far greater than our Total Debt as of today. At this point we are running roughly a 3:1 ratio of those that pay into the system for every one person paid out. By 2030 we will be at less than 2:1. When we came up with these things way back when we were north of 30:1. That is a significant problem and without social safety net reforms we will bankrupt the system at some point, there is no debating that point. There is only so much the system can do with Fiat Money to handle that. At the same time our government for 2014 will spend $3.65 Trillion Dollars (21.1% of GDP,) taking in $3.01 Trillion Dollars (17.7% of GDP)... both are numerical records although the percentage of GDP are not records. BTW, that number was published right before Obama became the 4th President in a row to drop a bomb on Iraq. Thanks to a split Congress our deficits are in fact on the decline but our Total Debt is now higher than our GDP (101.9% of GDP to be exact.) We have not done that since WWII but our liberal media could not care any less about that fact. All my numbers are coming from White House Reported stats confirmed by either the Fed, or the CBO, or MarketWatch, or CNBC (or all four.)

                              The reality is there is only so much wealth a government can confiscate before causing severe economic and monetary harm. The Koch Brothers get a bad name because they tend to go after those systems that are bankrupting the nation. Those like Danny buy into the nonsense that Obama, Reid and Pelosi put forth on the suggestion that the Koch Brothers want more wealth at the expense of everyone else. The truth is the Koch Brothers stand for is Libertarianism economics, lower personal and corporate taxes for everyone (not just themselves,) a very minimal social safety net system for the actual needy, and much less economic killing industry oversight. These things would fly in the face of today's liberals that have made a hallmark of placing as many people as possible and economic models as a whole into permanent government dependence. Of course Liberals would be upset about someone mentioning the modern day system slavery their policies have created at great expense.

                              What we are seeing is what happens when we turn over to politics what "dark money" is acceptable and what it is not. Yes, the Koch Brothers spend an astronomical amount of money on our political system. But it is devoid of all reality to suggest they are going it alone, or that their political counterparts do not have their own avenues of cash that all comes with plenty of payoff strings. Not always for the good of the nation, the economy, or both. We know it is fact from Soros to Steyer to very many Unions that the left has plenty of money to play with... just as the right does. When Ried or Pelosi or Obama get up and suggests that it is the Koch Brothers trying to rig an election, that is outright fraud. All that money all over the political spectrum is an attempt to rig an election towards those ideals. Not that the typical poster would own up to that but it is *fact.*

                              Oh and by the way, this thread ends the debate on that merger of a wealth based aristocracy and a modern day government aristocracy. It is here, and any basic review of opensecrets.org will tell anyone with an IQ above their shoe size that money moves politics today... both left and right. We suspect that just for 2012 this nation spent well north of $7 Billion dollars to have an election, and that was just what was reported (or discovered.) That is absurd, and the donor demographics for 2012 suggest Democrats just slightly outspent those "dangerous" Republicans.

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