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The return of the greek crisis

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  • The return of the greek crisis

    The greek crisis is back, and worse than before : Only days after greek PM Tsipras walked out of negotiations with the countrys creditors and announced a referendum on the strings attached to further payments ( after stonewalling for five/six months) Greece had banks closed, capital controls, a withdrawal limit at ATMs of 60 Euros per day imposed, defaulted on its debt to the IMF and the ECB (European Central Bank) putting a lid on liquidity aid to the crisis countrys banks (in case someone was doubting the creditors seriousness).
    Since the greek referendum delivered a pretty resounding „no“ ( to conditions, such as spending cuts/structure reforms like of the bancrupt pension system etc.) it is now less the creditors ( the other 18 nations of the Eurozone), but the Greeks themselves that have a problem. Since Greece almost simultaneously applied for a new (third) bailout. And while german chancellor Merkel is by far not the only european leader that would face a revolt in parliament if Greeces request would be presented to their MPs in its current form it is Greece that has the real problem. Banks in the country will stay closed for an unclear amount of time, cash machines are said to run out of Euro bancnotes soon (probably by the weekend), and import shortages loom ( Greece imports a vast amount of consumer goods, including most foods, drugs and petrol). Additionally tourism ( the countrys by far most important industry) has taken a hit. Partially due to tourists beeing scared off by the political and financial uncertainty, and partially because especially Germans increasingly prefer other holiday destinations ( once Greeces largest source of visitors, yet the governements often pretty aggressively anti-german rethoric (blaming them for „austerity“ etc.) has taken an obvious toll).
    Yesterday, after the new greek minister of finance Tsakalotos ( his predecessor Gianis Varoufakis had just resigned the day before and accused the countrys creditors of „ fiscal terrorism“ against his country. His boss meanwhile is on the record for comparing austerity to the Holocaust. Or for linking allegedly unpaid german WW II reparations to the Eurocrisis) had shown up in Brussels empty-handed, without any new proposals, yet confirmed his countrys bailout requests Greece was given an ultimatum in unusually clear language ( by EU standards). Unless the governement in Athens manages to come up with a clear and credible plan outlining reforms (corruption, tax evasion, bureaucracy, public service etc.) and improving fiscal revenues, that the creditor nations can hope to get passed in their parliaments, there will be „game over“ as far as the single currency is concerned. Probably as soon as Sunday, when the heads of the EUs governements meet again in Brussels. Angela Merkel said she was "not optimistic". :


    Quote : / The Greeks who gave the "No" side its win on Sunday did not seem to grasp how their vote would be perceived in the rest of Europe. Dancing and partying late into the night in public squares across the country, Syriza supporters spoke of a "victory of democracy" that would create a new Europe of solidarity. Meanwhile in Germany, Sigmar Gabriel, the leader of the centre-left Social Democratic party (coalition partner to the Christian Democrats of chancellor Angela Merkel), said that Mr Tsipras had "torn down the last bridges" between Greece and Europe and that further negotiations were "almost unthinkable". The majority of Germans have long favoured a Greek exit from the euro, according to polls. For most northern Europeans, the rejection of the bail-out terms signified a demand that Greece continue to set the conditions even as it is supported by other countries' taxpayers. Mr Tsipras may claim a democratic mandate to demand a new deal, but the democratic pressures on other EU leaders might make it impossible for them to give him one even if they were so inclined.



    http://www.economist.com/news/europe...6d37c30b6f1709
    Last edited by Voland; 07-08-2015, 02:57 AM.

  • #2
    I'm afraid we are headed in the same direction. Every Presidential election, those who are on the dole elect the leader and he puts more and more on the dole.

    ?


    • #3
      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
      I'm afraid we are headed in the same direction. Every Presidential election, those who are on the dole elect the leader and he puts more and more on the dole.
      Yeah, if neoliberal economics of the GOP and joined in by the dems, the hollowing out of America that kept working people off the dole, we would not be having more and more put on the dole. So the kind of economy you have does matter. For if it does not provide living wages to the greatest number of people, then it's the dole.

      So vote out your GOP politicians, and your democrats, or nothing will change.

      ?


      • #4
        In other news, 3 out of 5 crack addicts agree, what they really need is more crack.

        ?


        • #5
          Yes, we need to cut welfare rolls, so people can be motivated to get jobs. Like at Wal-Mart, which just recently raised wages, (imo) to improve their image as paying so low that employees qualified for welfare. Just in case someone's paycheck doesn't pay the rent for the lowest-priced apartment, I'm sure the owner will lower the monthly to meet demand. Unless "demand" means there are too many people in a given urban area, chasing wage rates into the ground. I'm sure conservatives have a solution for this.

          Seems like there is plenty of crack to go all around.

          ?


          • #6
            Originally posted by radcentr View Post
            Yes, we need to cut welfare rolls, so people can be motivated to get jobs. Like at Wal-Mart, which just recently raised wages, (imo) to improve their image as paying so low that employees qualified for welfare. Just in case someone's paycheck doesn't pay the rent for the lowest-priced apartment, I'm sure the owner will lower the monthly to meet demand. Unless "demand" means there are too many people in a given urban area, chasing wage rates into the ground. I'm sure conservatives have a solution for this.

            Seems like there is plenty of crack to go all around.
            Yeah, we have so many people on welfare that jobs that need to be filled just cannot find anyone to fill them. And to fill these jobs supply and demand is driving up the wages for those jobs. LOL. Yet that is not what the stats say, that wages are rising, unless some city votes in to raise their min. wage.

            There is a disconnect here. We have sent so many jobs so corporations can max out profits, to china, soon to be Vietnam, and have allowed 10s of millions of illegal workers in, so business that cannot leave can get that cheap labor too, which has put more americans on welfare, and the GOP wants to solve that problem by kicking people off of welfare. These GOPers seem to want to cure the headache of a horse by cutting his head off.

            We saw the same thing, from their incoherent thinking when there was only 2 jobs for every 5 unemployed, and the GOP's way of addressing this was to kick them off of unemployment so they would all go out and get jobs that did not exist. What this actually means is that the GOP really does not care about working people, but that isn't new, is it? The GOP does not think that demand for goods and services is what adds new jobs, they think tax breaks creates jobs. Yet I never added a single job because of a tax break. I only added a new person when the demand dictated it. These guys have an incoherent idea of what actually creates jobs in the real world. No businessman says, great, I got a tax break so I can add another worker, and spend that tax break on an employee, that I do not need in order to meet demand for my product. LOL It's funny, if not for the fact that it solves nothing when it comes to jobs.

            ?


            • #7
              Originally posted by radcentr View Post
              Yes, we need to cut welfare rolls, so people can be motivated to get jobs. Like at Wal-Mart, which just recently raised wages, (imo) to improve their image as paying so low that employees qualified for welfare. Just in case someone's paycheck doesn't pay the rent for the lowest-priced apartment, I'm sure the owner will lower the monthly to meet demand. Unless "demand" means there are too many people in a given urban area, chasing wage rates into the ground. I'm sure conservatives have a solution for this.

              Seems like there is plenty of crack to go all around.
              If Greeces main problem was just debt, a solution would already have been found. And issues with corruption, tax evasion ( or lack of tax collection) and bureaucracy have also been (sucessfully) dealth with by other nations. Greeces main problem however ( and that is what most american commentators who treat this as a purely financial issue, keep ignoring) is the clientelistic and nepotistic nature of its political and economical system , and a state that for the last couple of decades ( since joining the EU) pretty much focused on spending money, not raising it ( and thereby sought „letigimacy“). That may work if you are sitting on Saudi Arabias oil reserves or have a political hegemon that is footing your bills ( China/North Korea), it does most certainly not work for eternity as a member of Europes monetary union. That is what the current spat between Greece and ALL 18 members of the Eurozone ( not just Germany) is basically about.
              And the real challenge for Greece isnt „austerity“, but to develop a political vision where patronage is divorced from political allegiance and governement spending.
              Greece has now been given a last deadline till Sunday to come up with something convincing. But the mood in Europe is, to echoe the german chancellor, "„not optimistic"“.



              http://www.greekdefaultwatch.com/201...political.html

              ?


              • #8
                Originally posted by Voland View Post

                If Greeces main problem was just debt, a solution would already have been found. And issues with corruption, tax evasion ( or lack of tax collection) and bureaucracy have also been (sucessfully) dealth with by other nations. Greeces main problem however ( and that is what most american commentators who treat this as a purely financial issue, keep ignoring) is the clientelistic and nepotistic nature of its political and economical system , and a state that for the last couple of decades ( since joining the EU) pretty much focused on spending money, not raising it ( and thereby sought „letigimacy“). That may work if you are sitting on Saudi Arabias oil reserves or have a political hegemon that is footing your bills ( China/North Korea), it does most certainly not work for eternity as a member of Europes monetary union. That is what the current spat between Greece and ALL 18 members of the Eurozone ( not just Germany) is basically about.
                And the real challenge for Greece isnt „austerity“, but to develop a political vision where patronage is divorced from political allegiance and governement spending.
                Greece has now been given a last deadline till Sunday to come up with something convincing. But the mood in Europe is, to echoe the german chancellor, "„not optimistic"“.



                http://www.greekdefaultwatch.com/201...political.html
                So it isn't their socialism that is to blame, for we would then be calling out the Nordic states who have managed to incorporate a mix system which is working out well for their people, and who do not have the problems of Greece. Simply said, it is the culture of Greece that will not pay income tax, from the street vendor up to their rich elites. So the beast is being starved, and what you see in Greece is the conclusion of what happens when a culture will not finance their own standards of living.

                We might take a lesson from the attitude of the greeks, from top to bottom when it comes to being responsible and paying your taxes. Afterall we have 1 out of four corporations that pay zero income tax, and we have corporations and rich elites offshoring their profits in safe havens so as not to pay their taxes.

                So it looks like to me that the greek culture is the problem, not socialism. Of course we also know that the forced austerity decreased the gdp of Greece by 27 percent, which removes more of the tax revenue that they need in order to pay their bills.

                The best thing for Greece and its people is for them to go it alone, drop out of the EU, and NATO. If spain and Italy followed suit, including dropping out of NATO, NATO which is a waste of treasure, and nothing more than a device to poke a finger in Putin's eye, might make this a much less dangerous world. For the US with our idiots in DC will not stop until they goad Russia into a real war, where there are no winners. NATO was devised to keep the old USSR in check. The Ussr is long gone, and all that is left is Russia. That we still have NATO shows that we will not get rid of anchronisms, when that anachronism is the military arms of the oligarchy that is ruling the world more and more each year.

                Greece will have to learn how to be fiscally responsible on their own, and through suffering. They will have to pay their taxes, and stop trying to copy the rich the world over.

                ?


                • #9
                  I understand Greece's problem, at least on a superficial level. Why pay taxes if much of those revenues disappear into politicians pockets? How can the gov't. pay for programs (if they have an honest one), if too few people pay taxes?
                  -In short, who blinks first.

                  That dilemma is not limited to Greece because of their culture. It happens to countries that have too little experience with a representative democracy on both ends. One end (the gov't. official) has to learn there is a minimum requirement of competence for the gov't. to function well and earn respect. Too many incompetent nephews dipping into the till, there will be too little work done and fewer funds to execute public functions. This end of the corruption circle can exist in a dictatorship, so it has little to do with representative democracy.

                  The other end (the citizen) has to hold gov't. officials responsible, which means they pay attention to the work required, then reward good officials and punish bad ones. That was not possible in a established dictatorships. Uppity citizens are the first to go away, if we understand the nature of dictatorships. This can be resolved with a mostly boring application of public auditors, independent from political pressure. Attach a good public relations staff to the auditors, a decent feed to the afflicted nation's press, and we have liftoff. A game of "who stole what" played on TV can proceed to ruin entire political families (assuming a few well placed prison sentences), which in turn opens up positions to pubic employees who are less corrupt.

                  That last part, the citizen's end, is most critical to a cleanly run (therefore long lived) representative democracy. If we don't pay attention, it all disappears into the pockets of the average politician -after all a human being that needs to be kept honest.

                  ?


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                    So it isn't their socialism that is to blame, for we would then be calling out the Nordic states who have managed to incorporate a mix system which is working out well for their people, and who do not have the problems of Greece. Simply said, it is the culture of Greece that will not pay income tax, from the street vendor up to their rich elites. So the beast is being starved, and what you see in Greece is the conclusion of what happens when a culture will not finance their own standards of living.

                    We might take a lesson from the attitude of the greeks, from top to bottom when it comes to being responsible and paying your taxes. Afterall we have 1 out of four corporations that pay zero income tax, and we have corporations and rich elites offshoring their profits in safe havens so as not to pay their taxes.

                    So it looks like to me that the greek culture is the problem, not socialism. Of course we also know that the forced austerity decreased the gdp of Greece by 27 percent, which removes more of the tax revenue that they need in order to pay their bills.

                    The best thing for Greece and its people is for them to go it alone, drop out of the EU, and NATO. If spain and Italy followed suit, including dropping out of NATO, NATO which is a waste of treasure, and nothing more than a device to poke a finger in Putin's eye, might make this a much less dangerous world. For the US with our idiots in DC will not stop until they goad Russia into a real war, where there are no winners. NATO was devised to keep the old USSR in check. The Ussr is long gone, and all that is left is Russia. That we still have NATO shows that we will not get rid of anchronisms, when that anachronism is the military arms of the oligarchy that is ruling the world more and more each year.

                    Greece will have to learn how to be fiscally responsible on their own, and through suffering. They will have to pay their taxes, and stop trying to copy the rich the world over.


                    Austerity ? Well, if an economy breaks down by 27 % just because it has to live within the fiscal constraints of its own budget without external borrowing ( because creditors have shut off easy credit), than its fundamental issue isnt austerity, but "bubblenomics". And economic bubbles WILL pop sooner or later ( the Spanish and the Irish know a thing or two about that). The only question is wether in a controlled or an uncontrolled manner. One could as well argue that the financial crisis has merely exposed the greek economy for what it really is. More easy credit thrown at them without fundamental reform of the countrys political economy would have changed little about that. And that is a point that most anglo/american commentators ignore : Various governements in Athens have implemented austerity measures ( mostly for those that had little anyway, of course), true, yet what largely hasnt been touched are issues like tax evasion or lax tax collection ( worst in Europe), corruption ( Transparency International puts Greece closer to countries like Yemen or the Philippines than the rest of Europe on that), clientelist networks in the public sector ( since that is where politicians best buddies sit), miserable labour productivity and excessive bureaucracy. Like that, streamlining the budget while not cutting endemic waste, fraud, privileges and patronage (with the purpose of increasing revenues) it is no surprise that things havent quite worked out. And that is why the creditor nations demand more than vague promises this time (and in pretty sharp language).
                    It is more instructive to take a good close look at Greece prior to the introduction of the Euro ( which explains why voters are not at all interested in a return of the Drachma, not even now). It is furthermore easily forgotten that Greece has been a net taker of EU financial transfers since membership (1981) and the recipient of the largest wealth transfer of that kind in history ( debt cut 2012, worth multiple Marshall plans). It now requests another debt cut and another 50 billion on top (without wanting the commitments supposed to come along with it (referendum).
                    And lastly : Neither Greece, nor Spain, nor Italy will drop out of the EU, even if Greece was kicked out of the single currency zone. Not going too happen.
                    Last edited by Voland; 07-10-2015, 02:27 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Voland View Post



                      Austerity ? Well, if an economy breaks down by 27 % just because it has to live within the fiscal constraints of its own budget without external borrowing ( because creditors have shut off easy credit), than its fundamental issue isnt austerity, but "bubblenomics". And economic bubbles WILL pop sooner or later ( the Spanish and the Irish know a thing or two about that). The only question is wether in a controlled or an uncontrolled manner. One could as well argue that the financial crisis has merely exposed the greek economy for what it really is. More easy credit thrown at them without fundamental reform of the countrys political economy would have changed little about that. And that is a point that most anglo/american commentators ignore : Various governements in Athens have implemented austerity measures ( mostly for those that had little anyway, of course), true, yet what largely hasnt been touched are issues like tax evasion or lax tax collection ( worst in Europe), corruption ( Transparency International puts Greece closer to countries like Yemen or the Philippines than the rest of Europe on that), clientelist networks in the public sector ( since that is where politicians best buddies sit), miserable labour productivity and excessive bureaucracy. Like that, streamlining the budget while not cutting endemic waste, fraud, privileges and patronage (with the purpose of increasing revenues) it is no surprise that things havent quite worked out. And that is why the creditor nations demand more than vague promises this time (and in pretty sharp language).
                      It is more instructive to take a good close look at Greece prior to the introduction of the Euro ( which explains why voters are not at all interested in a return of the Drachma, not even now). It is furthermore easily forgotten that Greece has been a net taker of EU financial transfers since membership (1981) and the recipient of the largest wealth transfer of that kind in history ( debt cut 2012, worth multiple Marshall plans). It now requests another debt cut and another 50 billion on top (without wanting the commitments supposed to come along with it (referendum).
                      And lastly : Neither Greece, nor Spain, nor Italy will drop out of the EU, even if Greece was kicked out of the single currency zone. Not going too happen.
                      Here is a different perspective...

                      Greece And The EU Situation
                      Paul Craig Roberts
                      I doubt that there will be a Greek exit.
                      The Greek referendum, in which the Greek governments position easily prevailed, tells the troika (EU Commission, European Central Bank, IMF, with of course Washington as the puppet master) that the Greek people support their governments position that the years of austerity to which Greece has been subjected have seriously worsened the debt problem. The Greek government has been trying to turn the austerity approach into reforms that would lessen the debt burden via a rise in employment, GDP, and tax revenues.
                      The first response of most EU politicians to the Greek referendum outcome was to bluster about Greece exiting Europe. Washington is not prepared for this to happen and has told its vassals to give the Greeks a deal that they can accept that will keep them within the EU.
                      Washington has a higher interest than the interests of the US financial interests who purchased discounted sovereign debt with a view toward profiting from a deal that pays 100 cents on the dollar. Washington also has higher interest than the interests of the European One Percent intent on using Greeces indebtedness to loot the country of its national assets. Washingtons higher interest is the protection of the unity of the EU and, thereby, NATO, Washingtons mechanism for bringing conflict to Russia.
                      If the inflexible Germans were to have Greece booted from the EU, Greeces turn to Russia and financial rescue would put the same idea in the heads of Italy and Spain and perhaps ultimately France. NATO would unravel as Southern Europe became members of Russias Eurasian trade bloc, and American power would unravel with NATO.
                      This is simply unacceptable to Washington.
                      If reports are correct, Victoria Nuland has already paid a visit to the Greek prime minister and explained to him that he is neither to leave the EU or cozy up to the Russians or there will be consequences, polite language for overthrow or assassination. Indeed, the Greek prime minister probably knows this without need of a visit.
                      I conclude that the Greek debt crisis is now contained. The IMF has already adopted the Greek governments position with the release of the IMF report that it was a mistake from the beginning to impose austerity on Greece. Pressured by this report and by Washington, the EU Commission and European Central Bank will now work with the Greek government to come up with a plan acceptable to Greece.
                      This means that Italy, Spain, and Portugal can also expect more lenient treatment.
                      The losers are the looters who intended to use austerity measures to force these countries to transfer national assets into private hands. I am not implying that they are completely deterred, only that the extent of the plunder has been reduced.
                      As I have previously written, the Greek debt crisis was an orchestration from the beginning. The European Central Bank is printing 60 billion euros per month, and at any time during the crisis the ECB could have guaranteed the solvency of any remaining creditor banks by purchasing their holdings of Greek debt, just as the Federal Reserve purchased the troubled mortgage backed securities held by the banks too big to fail. This easy solution was not taken.
                      The orchestration was a benefit to Western financial interests in general by enabling enormous speculations on the euro and gambling with derivative bets on sovereign debt and everything connected to it. Each successive crisis, such as Sundays No vote, became cover for an attack on oil or other commodities. The rigging and manipulation of markets can be hidden by pointing fingers at the latest crisis.
                      John Perkins in his book, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, describes the process by which Western financial interests intentionally over-lend to weaker countries and then use the pressure of the debt to force the transfer of the countries wealth, and often sovereignty, to the West. The IMF and its austerity programs have long played a role in the looting.
                      In exchange for reducing euro debt on Greeces books, Greece was to turn over to private interests its water companies, ports, and protected islands. Unless the One Percent can purchase the current Greek government as it purchased previous governments (for example, with payoffs to borrow money with which to purchase submarines), the referendum has frustrated the looters.
                      In my book, The Failure of Laissez Faire Capitalism, I explained that the Greek debt crisis had two other purposes. One was to get rid of the practice of restructuring a countrys debt by writing it down to a level the country could afford and to establish in its place the new principle that people of a country are responsible for the mistakes of creditors who over-lend. The write-down is no longer to occur on the balance sheet of the creditors but instead becomes a write-down of pensions, social services, and employment. This, too, is a process of looting.
                      The other purpose, as Jean-Claude Trichet, the previous head of the European Central Bank, made explicitly clear, was to further reduce the sovereignty of member states of the EU by transferring authority over fiscal policy (tax and spend decisions) from national governments to the EU in Brussels.
                      Washington favors this centralization of political power in Europe, and Washington favors the One Percent over the people. However, above all Washington favors its own power and has acted to prevent a Greek exit, which could begin the unraveling of NATO.
                      Russia and China have missed an opportunity to begin the unraveling of NATO by assisting Greeces departure from the EU. Whatever the cost, it would be tiny in comparison to the military buildup that Washington is forcing on both countries. Russia and China might have decided that Washington could no more accept Greeces alignment with Russia than Russia can accept Ukraine becoming a member of NATO.
                      If the Greek situation and the waiting Italian and Spanish situations are now resolved along the lines that this article suggests, it means that the NATO mechanism for Washingtons pressure on Russia remains intact and that the conflict that Washington has created will continue. This is the bad news and the downside of Greeces victory over the looters
                      http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015...craig-roberts/

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                        Here is a different perspective...



                        http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015...craig-roberts/
                        The author is right about one thing, yet merely one ( who seriously doesnt understand why the ECB, the Central Bank of the ENTIRE Eurozone, doesnt just print the money (independence/narrow mandate about price stability/union of nations, yet not one nation ?) hasnt understood the first thing about the topic. And who seriously speculates about Italy and Spain moving into Russias open arms has almost certainly never set foot on these countries soil.)
                        Yet where the author is correct is that the US have indeed expressed concerns about a humilated Greece, booted out of the Eurozone ( not the EU, that is neither on the cards nor has been demanded by anyone), turning eastwards for new buddies. Yet this speculation ignores several points : Not only has the greek electorate shown no signs to back such a move, Putin himself has ruled out financial aid for Greece ( and that is what it comes down to). He is himself a bit cash-strapped currently, and Greece is a costly „friend“ to have (as the Europeans can confirm). And on top : Recent greek governements have done little to appear like sticking to agreements and trustworthy. And that is a point that most American and British observers persistently ignore. Angela Merkel was dead serious when she told journalists in Brussels the other day that solving the greek crisis was neither about money nor will, but trust. The issue with the referendum isnt democracy. Americans are familiar with the saying „Your rights end at my nose“, correct ? In the same way Germans have no problem with the Greeks voting on whatever they like, JUST AS LONG as that doesnt interfere with THEIR democratic rights ( greek democracy ends at Greeces borders. Greeks voting against strings attached to fiscal transfers that they request ( or against „austerity“) does not oblige other democracies to play along in any way, shape or form, since all 18 other governements have their mandates from their voters as well). The greek governement has broken off negotiations with its creditors (the other 18 Euro states), called a referendum, lobbied for a rejection of the strings that creditors demanded ( that they recieved accordingly ), and when Greeks had rejected the terms of the creditors, turned around and claimed to accept ( most of ) the terms that their voters had just thrown out of the window, yet in return for a (third) bailout ( around 80 billion) and debt forgiveness (from previous bailouts) on top (more or less). That is why the deal that was agreed in Brussels today has been much harsher than what was on offer one/two weeks ago. Since european governements also have electorates at home that are increasingly sceptical why Greeces leadership should be trusted to reform their economy and stick to commitments this time after playing games and insulting the creditors in pretty foul language „("terrorists“, fiscal waterboarding“" etc. (in return for the money that is almost certain not to come back anyway) while consistently NOT coming up with previously agreed reforms . Those hardest to convince are not fiscally conservative Germans by the way but nations like the baltic states, Slovakia or Slovenia. Nations that have struggled hard on their own to transform their economies after the end of communism, have struggled hard again in the financial crisis and who continue to be poorer than Greece. And they are not the only ones that might still let the new bailout deal fail :


                        http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...athens-bailout
                        Last edited by Voland; 07-13-2015, 12:03 PM.

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