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No, not communism, nor socialism, but oligarchy...

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  • #16
    Thomas Sowell Argues Income Inequality And Institutional Racism Aren’t Really Problems

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/05/th...#ixzz3nhCvEwe7

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #17
      Originally posted by Slon View Post

      US companies generally set prices as high as they can sell, not based on the costs. That's just how American business works.

      And if the costs go up, or down, the price often must stay the same. That means the owners, who often get a hell of a lot of money and do very little work to justify it, either eat the increased cost or reap the increased profit.

      That is only true to a certain degree. However American manufacturers cannot make a product and sell it at a loss and still stay in business. When all of this outsourcing began, there were American made products and foreign made products available. People would not pay more for the domestically produced items and those manufacturers either went out of business or moved. That is a simple fact. The only way to compete with foreign made products is to impose tariffs on those products. That will raise the price of all products and eliminate many from the market of those products because they can't afford them.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #18
        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


        That is only true to a certain degree. However American manufacturers cannot make a product and sell it at a loss and still stay in business. When all of this outsourcing began, there were American made products and foreign made products available. People would not pay more for the domestically produced items and those manufacturers either went out of business or moved. That is a simple fact. The only way to compete with foreign made products is to impose tariffs on those products. That will raise the price of all products and eliminate many from the market of those products because they can't afford them.
        So, if you allow in goods made by really cheap labor, or you allow in, "dumping" without tariffs, will this hurt American companies making those same products, here? You bet your arse it will. And this is the reason, we used tariffs to protect the American companies and workers for most of our history. It is never perfect, as nothing is, but it is the only way to protect American jobs and standards of living. And we did that for a long, long time. And other nations did as well, and still do.

        So, WHY were tariffs dropped on cheaper made foreign goods, which cut our own throats? Why did we stop doing, what we knew had to be done to protect our companies and our workers? If you dig deeply into this, you will find out the truth. And the truth, involved big business, and what they wanted to do. It involved group of elites trying to make more profits. Afterall, we tariffed for most of our history, to not protect the American worker so much as to protect the corporations. When corporations could move offshore to exploit the poor over there, there was no need to tariff cheap labor competition, so no need for tarrifs, for now they could make goods for the same costs.


        Again, the American people must be allowed to make most of what they consume, if you do not want large welfare roles and a hollowed out middle class. And in order to do that, we must protect this by tariffs. As other nations are still protecting their own people, by tariffs, or trade barriers that do not involve tariffs, but work even more effectively than tariffs. Now, if the only concern is business and their profits, with the population of America not being important, then globalization and free trade, the neofeudalism of the 21st century, is the only way to go. But free trade hollows out nations like America, who for most of its history, allowed its citizens to have jobs by making what they consumed.


        Trade, outside of raw materials, was mainly used to foster peace between nations, but it was not allowed to hollow out a nation, as it was controlled, and only served to keep nations friendly to one another, to have trade relations. That was the main purpose of trade, as we were taught in public school in the 50s. This was the INTELLIGENT way to use trade, instead of being a tool to send wealth to the top dogs, creating instability within a society that has to have jobs for its own people. And jobs, in the private sector, always involves making what is consumed.

        This ain't rocket science, it is just very ancient good economics and common sense.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

          So, if you allow in goods made by really cheap labor, or you allow in, "dumping" without tariffs, will this hurt American companies making those same products, here? You bet your arse it will. And this is the reason, we used tariffs to protect the American companies and workers for most of our history. It is never perfect, as nothing is, but it is the only way to protect American jobs and standards of living. And we did that for a long, long time. And other nations did as well, and still do.

          So, WHY were tariffs dropped on cheaper made foreign goods, which cut our own throats? Why did we stop doing, what we knew had to be done to protect our companies and our workers? If you dig deeply into this, you will find out the truth. And the truth, involved big business, and what they wanted to do. It involved group of elites trying to make more profits. Afterall, we tariffed for most of our history, to not protect the American worker so much as to protect the corporations. When corporations could move offshore to exploit the poor over there, there was no need to tariff cheap labor competition, so no need for tarrifs, for now they could make goods for the same costs.


          Again, the American people must be allowed to make most of what they consume, if you do not want large welfare roles and a hollowed out middle class. And in order to do that, we must protect this by tariffs. As other nations are still protecting their own people, by tariffs, or trade barriers that do not involve tariffs, but work even more effectively than tariffs. Now, if the only concern is business and their profits, with the population of America not being important, then globalization and free trade, the neofeudalism of the 21st century, is the only way to go. But free trade hollows out nations like America, who for most of its history, allowed its citizens to have jobs by making what they consumed.


          Trade, outside of raw materials, was mainly used to foster peace between nations, but it was not allowed to hollow out a nation, as it was controlled, and only served to keep nations friendly to one another, to have trade relations. That was the main purpose of trade, as we were taught in public school in the 50s. This was the INTELLIGENT way to use trade, instead of being a tool to send wealth to the top dogs, creating instability within a society that has to have jobs for its own people. And jobs, in the private sector, always involves making what is consumed.

          This ain't rocket science, it is just very ancient good economics and common sense.

          I get tired of you saying we must make most of what we consume. If you pay Americans to make something, The price of that something will be too high for many Americans to afford it. There would be very few big screen TV's in this country today if they were made here. No one could afford them. Poor people in this country today have a much higher standard of living than most of the world. People in this country simply feel entitled to the same things the rich have. When we were young, that was not the case. When we were young, we were entitled to what we earned.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


            I get tired of you saying we must make most of what we consume. If you pay Americans to make something, The price of that something will be too high for many Americans to afford it. There would be very few big screen TV's in this country today if they were made here. No one could afford them. Poor people in this country today have a much higher standard of living than most of the world. People in this country simply feel entitled to the same things the rich have. When we were young, that was not the case. When we were young, we were entitled to what we earned.
            I can understand why you get tired of the mathematical certainty of what will happen to a nation's people, if they are not allowed to make what they consume, just so corporations can max out their own wealth. For, clearly, you do not give a damn about the American people, and I am a constant reminder of that fact. For this certainty, means something that is monumental, when it comes to the American people. I am one of those American people, and everyone I know personally, are also one of those, and I just happen to care, for the American people. For they are my neighbors, and we all live in this nation together, after much blood, sweat and tears, to keep her a sovereign nation. But tied in with us no longer making what we consume, so that we can employ as many of us as possible, for employment feeds us, via these free trade agreements, is a loss of sovereignty, even as the power of the people have been diminished, and given away to the banking cabal and MNCs So, it is a double whammy, this treason, that you obviously support, and do not like to be reminded of it. But it is the duty of those who have a grasp upon reality, to try to drive it through thick ideological skulls, as to the nature of that reality and the mathematical certainty involved.

            So, you are willing to have a 20 percent perpetual jobless rate, an increase in poverty, in order that you can buy a big screen tv cheaper at walmart, made in communist china? You would rather hollow out our middle class, and destroy blue collar workers making a living wage, so you can have a cheap big screen tv set, to watch your FOX propagandists on? You, and others like you, are destroying what America used to be. Over cheap tv big screen tvs.


            It is a fact, that the American people are better off, more secure, when they are paid living wages, and their consumer goods are not as cheap as they are, coming from Vietnam, who pays 56 cents an hour, poverty wages, in an already poor nation, so that MNCs can max out their own profits and wealth. The truth here is, to hell with the American people, just give me a cheap big screen tv set. What I point out, is not liberal, nor progressive, we simply used to call it common decency once upon a time.

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            • #21
              Bernie Sanders and Robert Reich Are Confused by Economics. And Government. And Reality



              http://townhall.com/columnists/seton...ality-n2061360

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                I can understand why you get tired of the mathematical certainty of what will happen to a nation's people, if they are not allowed to make what they consume, just so corporations can max out their own wealth. For, clearly, you do not give a damn about the American people, and I am a constant reminder of that fact. For this certainty, means something that is monumental, when it comes to the American people. I am one of those American people, and everyone I know personally, are also one of those, and I just happen to care, for the American people. For they are my neighbors, and we all live in this nation together, after much blood, sweat and tears, to keep her a sovereign nation. But tied in with us no longer making what we consume, so that we can employ as many of us as possible, for employment feeds us, via these free trade agreements, is a loss of sovereignty, even as the power of the people have been diminished, and given away to the banking cabal and MNCs So, it is a double whammy, this treason, that you obviously support, and do not like to be reminded of it. But it is the duty of those who have a grasp upon reality, to try to drive it through thick ideological skulls, as to the nature of that reality and the mathematical certainty involved.

                So, you are willing to have a 20 percent perpetual jobless rate, an increase in poverty, in order that you can buy a big screen tv cheaper at walmart, made in communist china? You would rather hollow out our middle class, and destroy blue collar workers making a living wage, so you can have a cheap big screen tv set, to watch your FOX propagandists on? You, and others like you, are destroying what America used to be. Over cheap tv big screen tvs.


                It is a fact, that the American people are better off, more secure, when they are paid living wages, and their consumer goods are not as cheap as they are, coming from Vietnam, who pays 56 cents an hour, poverty wages, in an already poor nation, so that MNCs can max out their own profits and wealth. The truth here is, to hell with the American people, just give me a cheap big screen tv set. What I point out, is not liberal, nor progressive, we simply used to call it common decency once upon a time.

                You can sit on your soapbox all you want, it doesn't work, and every economist worth their salt knows it.

                You say, 56 cents an hour. That is what does it, correct? Did you say ANYTHING about lower taxes? How about terrible working conditions which mean minimal investment? How about no overtime pay? How about less regulation? You have some human rights problems here, and all you talk about is 56 cents?

                Tariffs don't work, no matter how hard you try. It was like when Nixon put a wage and price freeze on. What happened? Corporations built products like crazy, because they knew when the wage and price control came off, they would make a bundle. What happened when they threatened to block Japanese steel from coming in if it was felt they were dumping? Yep, domestic steel went through the roof.

                All you are doing Blue is attempting an old Communist trick; it is called "government manipulation of the market." It worked so well, we see how the USSR and Cuba are doing/did with it. You above all other left wingers, should understand how dastardly this stuff is. Is it not you who claim this global warming crap is hokey, and us funding green technology while allowing them to raise our prices on cheaper energy so their pet green crap looks competitive, is WRONG! Well guess what, that is EXACTLY what you are suggesting we do. You want us to subsidize through an indirect tax, a transfer of wealth payment to other people.

                Now, I am NOT disagreeing with your view, or unhappiness on this issue. I am rather suggesting you come up with a different solution. The solution you put forth, we KNOW from history, does NOT work. Come up with a different method that may be more viable, and who knows; you might get the nobel prize for economics. Just let me remind you that identifying a recurring problem, does not mean you employ a failed strategy to combat said problem.

                And what is the solution? Don't ask me, it is your thread, but it is certainly NOT the failed solution that has been tried over, and over again, and has not worked yet with good consequences in this country.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Imawhosure View Post


                  You can sit on your soapbox all you want, it doesn't work, and every economist worth their salt knows it.

                  You say, 56 cents an hour. That is what does it, correct? Did you say ANYTHING about lower taxes? How about terrible working conditions which mean minimal investment? How about no overtime pay? How about less regulation? You have some human rights problems here, and all you talk about is 56 cents?

                  Tariffs don't work, no matter how hard you try. It was like when Nixon put a wage and price freeze on. What happened? Corporations built products like crazy, because they knew when the wage and price control came off, they would make a bundle. What happened when they threatened to block Japanese steel from coming in if it was felt they were dumping? Yep, domestic steel went through the roof.

                  All you are doing Blue is attempting an old Communist trick; it is called "government manipulation of the market." It worked so well, we see how the USSR and Cuba are doing/did with it. You above all other left wingers, should understand how dastardly this stuff is. Is it not you who claim this global warming crap is hokey, and us funding green technology while allowing them to raise our prices on cheaper energy so their pet green crap looks competitive, is WRONG! Well guess what, that is EXACTLY what you are suggesting we do. You want us to subsidize through an indirect tax, a transfer of wealth payment to other people.

                  Now, I am NOT disagreeing with your view, or unhappiness on this issue. I am rather suggesting you come up with a different solution. The solution you put forth, we KNOW from history, does NOT work. Come up with a different method that may be more viable, and who knows; you might get the nobel prize for economics. Just let me remind you that identifying a recurring problem, does not mean you employ a failed strategy to combat said problem.

                  And what is the solution? Don't ask me, it is your thread, but it is certainly NOT the failed solution that has been tried over, and over again, and has not worked yet with good consequences in this country.
                  Not every economist knows it. And if you think that they do, you choose to remain in your self created intellectual box. Tarriffs absolutely work, and they are used today by many nations. If they did not work, we would have never used them, and no nation would have ever used them. We used them because they worked in protecting a nations working people, and provided them with decent standards of living. For you to say this is utter absurdity.

                  Communist trick my arse. We had tariffs before communism even existed as a system. And my system is not my system, but the way this nation worked, and what we used to give our people security.


                  You have been duped is all I can say. Again, it is a mathematical certainty, that the only way any nation can employ the maximum number of its own people, is to allow them to make what they consume, in goods and services. Trade is what we did to get raw materials, if we did not have them, and to trade a little with other nations in order to foster peace. Trade was not used, to offshore American jobs to cheap labor, for that has nothing to do with trade at all.

                  We operated just fine, before these free trade agreements existed. In fact, the whole world did. The misnomer of free trade is a tool to max out profits of MNCs. But it has, and still is hollowing out America.


                  It is not a novel idea, for a nation to make what it consumes, employing its own people. For every job in the private sector involves doing just that. But if you allow corporations to still provide what we consume, but do not use our own people to make that, you will have a perpetual high unemployment rate, for jobs only exist, in making what we consume, except what we can export. But exports was always extra profits, not the primary source of profits. Yet if you export to another nation, that means that the max number of people cannot be employed in that nation, that has to buy an export for us, and import for them. So, it is essential, for the well being of every nation, to make what it consumes. Then trade takes its rightful place, and we buy French wine, because it is good wine, better than ours perhaps, and it is tariffed to protect our own wine industry, which employs our own people.


                  The very idea that you do not protect your own people, protect their jobs and living standards, is oligarchy. And that is fascism. Protecting your own people is not communism, or socialism. It is called human decency.

                  What I want, is for anyone to prove, that you can employ the maximum number of your own people and not make what we consume. We have already employ the max number by making what we consume, and we see what happens when you do not, as in today. Our actual jobless rate is not a bit over 5 percent! And you will never hear an economist talk about this mathematical certainty. They ignore it, while it is foundational, when it comes to employing your own people. One would think that the price of consumer goods is exponentially more important than a nation's people having a job which provides life for them. So the price of a damned widget is more important than people having jobs? That is utter nonsense.

                  We have allowed ignorance of fundamental truths, hollow out this nation, in order that a few at the top can create larger piles of gold for themselves, and we have lost the ability to think rationally about what an economic model should do. But when MSM runs away from it, and politicians say globalization was forced upon us by God himself, and do not question it....until Sanders and Trump came along, that is.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                    Thomas Sowell Argues Income Inequality And Institutional Racism Aren’t Really Problems

                    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/05/th...#ixzz3nhCvEwe7
                    Which nation has survived an imbalanced economic range in their population, within the capitalist era? Sowell won't go there. Stability with a very large portion of the pop in poverty can only be maintained within a feudal system. To be fair to Sowell, most other economists won't go there, either, for obvious reasons.

                    He also states there is no evidence of institutional racism. He also won't go there, because there is evidence. One link: http://www.epi.org/publication/webfe...hive_09172003/


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                      Which nation has survived an imbalanced economic range in their population, within the capitalist era? Sowell won't go there. Stability with a very large portion of the pop in poverty can only be maintained within a feudal system. To be fair to Sowell, most other economists won't go there, either, for obvious reasons.

                      He also states there is no evidence of institutional racism. He also won't go there, because there is evidence. One link: http://www.epi.org/publication/webfe...hive_09172003/


                      There is no nation that does not have an economic imbalance in their population. It is socialists in this country who will never be happy until everyone is universally poor. We are nowhere near having a large portion of our population in poverty. In fact, most of our poor are wealthy by the world's standards.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                        Not every economist knows it. And if you think that they do, you choose to remain in your self created intellectual box. Tarriffs absolutely work, and they are used today by many nations. If they did not work, we would have never used them, and no nation would have ever used them. We used them because they worked in protecting a nations working people, and provided them with decent standards of living. For you to say this is utter absurdity.

                        Communist trick my arse. We had tariffs before communism even existed as a system. And my system is not my system, but the way this nation worked, and what we used to give our people security.


                        You have been duped is all I can say. Again, it is a mathematical certainty, that the only way any nation can employ the maximum number of its own people, is to allow them to make what they consume, in goods and services. Trade is what we did to get raw materials, if we did not have them, and to trade a little with other nations in order to foster peace. Trade was not used, to offshore American jobs to cheap labor, for that has nothing to do with trade at all.

                        We operated just fine, before these free trade agreements existed. In fact, the whole world did. The misnomer of free trade is a tool to max out profits of MNCs. But it has, and still is hollowing out America.


                        It is not a novel idea, for a nation to make what it consumes, employing its own people. For every job in the private sector involves doing just that. But if you allow corporations to still provide what we consume, but do not use our own people to make that, you will have a perpetual high unemployment rate, for jobs only exist, in making what we consume, except what we can export. But exports was always extra profits, not the primary source of profits. Yet if you export to another nation, that means that the max number of people cannot be employed in that nation, that has to buy an export for us, and import for them. So, it is essential, for the well being of every nation, to make what it consumes. Then trade takes its rightful place, and we buy French wine, because it is good wine, better than ours perhaps, and it is tariffed to protect our own wine industry, which employs our own people.


                        The very idea that you do not protect your own people, protect their jobs and living standards, is oligarchy. And that is fascism. Protecting your own people is not communism, or socialism. It is called human decency.

                        What I want, is for anyone to prove, that you can employ the maximum number of your own people and not make what we consume. We have already employ the max number by making what we consume, and we see what happens when you do not, as in today. Our actual jobless rate is not a bit over 5 percent! And you will never hear an economist talk about this mathematical certainty. They ignore it, while it is foundational, when it comes to employing your own people. One would think that the price of consumer goods is exponentially more important than a nation's people having a job which provides life for them. So the price of a damned widget is more important than people having jobs? That is utter nonsense.

                        We have allowed ignorance of fundamental truths, hollow out this nation, in order that a few at the top can create larger piles of gold for themselves, and we have lost the ability to think rationally about what an economic model should do. But when MSM runs away from it, and politicians say globalization was forced upon us by God himself, and do not question it....until Sanders and Trump came along, that is.
                        You are correct, but wrong as usual in the American context.

                        You can not claim we are free, then demand the population buys what you proclaim.

                        You can't put tariffs on smiling, when the other country is going to put them back on you. In other words, you are not only going to raise the cost of products to our people, you are going to put a load of our people out of work that build exports.

                        In any case, history teaches all things, and America has "been there, done that!" We tried it your way before, and here is what MOST economists think. http://americastradepolicy.com/did-t.../#.VhWcMoKFM-U

                        Now, do I think that is the end all, be all? No I do not! But I can tell you this...................if nothing else, you will be screwing poor Americans out of cheaper prices for goods. Your way has got us stuck in this malaise executed by Obama. Now, you want to take another crapola idea, this time from a Republican administration, and institute it.

                        When you come up with a winning idea, call us!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                          There is no nation that does not have an economic imbalance in their population. It is socialists in this country who will never be happy until everyone is universally poor. We are nowhere near having a large portion of our population in poverty. In fact, most of our poor are wealthy by the world's standards.
                          There is no economist who claims that a capitalist (or mixed) economy can continue indefinitely, under the imbalanced range we are moving towards in the US. There. That's my hypothesis. Prove it wrong, OMD. Economists are universally in favor of planning, whether on the micro or macro-economic level. Venezuela morphed into a low-grade socialist state because it ignored their imbalance (20% non-poor to 80% poor) for decades; that is standard practice if free elections are held in a state with that kind of imbalance. Planning to avoid the catastrophic end of capitalism in the US would be a good thing, don't you think?

                          And who says it must be socialists who fix it? Not me. Here is just one solution:
                          To afford the fair-market price of the average U.S. two-bedroom rental Center, renters working full-time need to earn at least $15.28 per hour. That's almost three times the current federal minimum wage, and 37 percent more than renters needed to earn in 1999.6
                          http://www.thriventbuilds.com/homes/issue/simple.html ...Along with organizations like Habitat for Humanity, they put poor people into decent shelter they can afford, using their own sweat equity. Something that gov't. and for-profit companies will not (or cannot) do.

                          Standard issue Conservatives don't like a solution from this sector because it doesn't involve a crony-contract to a for-profit, large company (the "source" for all employment, according to them). Standard issue leftists don't like that Sector which Shall Not Be Named, either. It doesn't involve the government (the "source" for all just programs administered with minimal corruption, according to them).

                          Both political sides give lip service to orgs like Habitat, then studiously ignore them and hope the issue fades away. Non-profit orgs scare the shit out of both sides. Means they must be doing something right. Time to take a closer look at that sector for our solutions.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Imawhosure View Post

                            You are correct, but wrong as usual in the American context.

                            You can not claim we are free, then demand the population buys what you proclaim.

                            You can't put tariffs on smiling, when the other country is going to put them back on you. In other words, you are not only going to raise the cost of products to our people, you are going to put a load of our people out of work that build exports.

                            In any case, history teaches all things, and America has "been there, done that!" We tried it your way before, and here is what MOST economists think. http://americastradepolicy.com/did-t.../#.VhWcMoKFM-U

                            Now, do I think that is the end all, be all? No I do not! But I can tell you this...................if nothing else, you will be screwing poor Americans out of cheaper prices for goods. Your way has got us stuck in this malaise executed by Obama. Now, you want to take another crapola idea, this time from a Republican administration, and institute it.

                            When you come up with a winning idea, call us!
                            Correct but wrong as usual in the American context?

                            Look, what I am talking about has NO ROOM for OPINION. And that is the bitch here, right? It cannot be spun, it cannot be contrived, it cannot be made so complex and complicated, in order to move it over into OPINION. There are certain aspects of existence, that is like this, and those areas, are generally the ones that have to be totally ignored, for otherwise, they will slap you right back into the reality, that has no place for opinions, which are generally then, left and right.

                            So, in order for any nation to employ the max number of its own people, those people must be allowed to make what they consume. The only reason a nation would not do this, is if it hindered business from making as much as they possible could, by selling a good or a service. Yet if the gov't looked after the best interests, of its majority, that gov't would structure policy, to insure that indeed we employed our own, making what we consumed.

                            But this does not ax trade, far from it. Trade still happens, but it serves a different purpose. That is, it goes back to what it once was, as a means for particular items to be imported, that cannot be produced here, fine French wine, Moroccan handcrafted rugs, single malt scotch from Scotland, etc, and so on. Or even an exotic expensive Italian sports car. That is, you import goods that are tied to certain nations, who have a history of making these goods.

                            But if you use the concept of freedom, which allows the hollowing out, the weakening of a population of a nation, that is no different from saying one should be free to holler out, lying, that there is a fire in a big crowded venue.


                            The idea that we will ever be a nation, that instead of making what it consumes, employing the max number of its own people, will be an export nation, that employs the max number of its own people by exporting to employ our own people with living wage jobs is only just an idea, which can never, and will never happen, unless all of those goods are made by robots, to given the competitive edge essential to compete with the extremely low wages of globalization. But then there will be fewer jobs, and even higher jobless rates than today. So that is not a solution. It's fantasy, a fanciful concept that does not fit with reality.

                            I already have the winning idea, for it is grounded in a mathematical certainty. All that it requires is rationality, and moving away from maxing out profits, to wanting instead to keep your own population employed, earning enough to thrive. To even think that you can provide jobs while not making what we consume here, is utter insanity. There isn't another way to do it, period. To even entertain that there is, is the problem we have today, but that kind of thinking comes from an incoherence in thinking.

                            This idea of having the cheapest priced goods by not making what we consume gives us what you see today in America. Have you even looked? Obviously not. You are living in a bubble. You are not paying attention.

                            Tariffs did not create the crash of 29, and the great depression. We tried to use tariffs to put people back to work, but financial driven crashes and depressions are not fixed by tariffs. Tariffs, protect jobs that already exist in a normal economy and alone cannot pull one out of a financial caused depression.

                            There are economists, past and present, that are not paid economists by elite special interests groups, that will tell you real quick that having the cheapest possible consumer goods, over employing your own people is utter insanity, unless of course, you only want corporations and the banking cabal to max out their own profits. But that comes at a great cost, and that cost now can be seen all over this nation that were industrial areas since the industrial revolution. You see in it those towns, that cannot raise enough tax money from business and citizens in order to keep their infrastructure up. This is a cancer, what you and your ilk are supporting, and even the damage that it has caused and is causing, and will continue to cause makes no difference at all. You know why? Damned ideological beliefs, that are only favorable to the elites of this nation. We have loads of right side americans, white working people, that have supported this damned GOP neoliberalism, which has literally cut their own throats. Thankfully, right now, there are millions of those people who are finally waking up and seeing that neoliberalism(even if they do not know what it is, and its reason for existence) has done to the working class and middle class in this nation. Sure, they are supporting Trump on the GOP side, but he has brought up what these people are finally seeing as one of the problems, free trade that gutted America of jobs. Which until first sanders and then him, made this an issue, the Dem Party and the GOP were verboten to even speak of it, and MSM would never mention what it has done to the average American. So now, Clinton has flipped flopped and come out against this sovereign robbing, job stealing TPP, for she is starting to notice that the people are finally waking up, and understanding that the cheapest widgets guts America of jobs. And jobs is what people have to have in order to live. And unless you protect those jobs, they will go to 56 cents labor in Vietnam.


                            Last edited by Blue Doggy; 10-08-2015, 07:19 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                              There is no nation that does not have an economic imbalance in their population. It is socialists in this country who will never be happy until everyone is universally poor. We are nowhere near having a large portion of our population in poverty. In fact, most of our poor are wealthy by the world's standards.
                              You are of course factual, in that there is no nation that does not have rich people, poor people. And all nations that use capitalism have a middle class. But depending upon the kind of capitalism being practiced, determines what percentage of the population is in the middle class. Nations with a larger middle class manage their capitalism, so that it prevents too much of the wealth and income from going to the top We have seen that here, in our own nation, play out. We have seen what sort of capitalism creates a larger middle class, bringing prosperity to the greatest numbers and we have now seen, what sort of capitalism does the reverse. This reality doesn't mean much to some people. And that of course is our current problem in this nation For if you want a larger middle, rather than smaller, the socialism word is played, accusing the pro middle class people of being socialists.

                              Capitalism itself has poverty built into it, when it is practiced. And you cannot escape that. It comes from the mathematical certainty, that given the advance of machines, and other technology, ALL of a workforce is not needed in order to provide what is consumed. Those that are not needed, eventually will end up in poverty, for lack of a job. So, capitalism when used to supply goods and services, in order for it to not be challenged by real deal socialism, HAS to provide what it takes to live, for people not needed to supply goods and services. This is the BIG PICTURE, that when one looks at it, allows WISDOM to arise in the human intellect.

                              The argument you always present, about comparing our poor to the poor in Africa, does not stop social instability. It does not stop men like FDR, having to save capitalism, by policies that forced it into to providing a decent living for our people. So, you are using an argument that has zero relevance. For we do not live in Africa. We live in a society, that once had an economy that allowed the greatest number of people to thrive, by their own work. And we have now living in an economy that no longer is doing that. If you think, that this does not destabilize this nation, internally, you are not looking at the Big Picture. This nation is filled with towns that once were thriving, and now because of free trade is rotting, and the people suffering economically. They might not be like the poor in Africa, but to them, their positions may as well be the poor in Africa. The loss of hope in America reverberates through society. Again, another look at the Big Picture. I think it is time for you to WISE up. And stop defending the very thing that will make your great grandkids think that great grandpa was not a very wise man, at best, and piss on your grave, at worse. For they will be able to read your thoughts on this issue, long after you are gone, as my own, will be able to read mine.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                                Correct but wrong as usual in the American context?

                                Look, what I am talking about has NO ROOM for OPINION. And that is the bitch here, right? It cannot be spun, it cannot be contrived, it cannot be made so complex and complicated, in order to move it over into OPINION. There are certain aspects of existence, that is like this, and those areas, are generally the ones that have to be totally ignored, for otherwise, they will slap you right back into the reality, that has no place for opinions, which are generally then, left and right.

                                So, in order for any nation to employ the max number of its own people, those people must be allowed to make what they consume. The only reason a nation would not do this, is if it hindered business from making as much as they possible could, by selling a good or a service. Yet if the gov't looked after the best interests, of its majority, that gov't would structure policy, to insure that indeed we employed our own, making what we consumed.

                                But this does not ax trade, far from it. Trade still happens, but it serves a different purpose. That is, it goes back to what it once was, as a means for particular items to be imported, that cannot be produced here, fine French wine, Moroccan handcrafted rugs, single malt scotch from Scotland, etc, and so on. Or even an exotic expensive Italian sports car. That is, you import goods that are tied to certain nations, who have a history of making these goods.

                                But if you use the concept of freedom, which allows the hollowing out, the weakening of a population of a nation, that is no different from saying one should be free to holler out, lying, that there is a fire in a big crowded venue.


                                The idea that we will ever be a nation, that instead of making what it consumes, employing the max number of its own people, will be an export nation, that employs the max number of its own people by exporting to employ our own people with living wage jobs is only just an idea, which can never, and will never happen, unless all of those goods are made by robots, to given the competitive edge essential to compete with the extremely low wages of globalization. But then there will be fewer jobs, and even higher jobless rates than today. So that is not a solution. It's fantasy, a fanciful concept that does not fit with reality.

                                I already have the winning idea, for it is grounded in a mathematical certainty. All that it requires is rationality, and moving away from maxing out profits, to wanting instead to keep your own population employed, earning enough to thrive. To even think that you can provide jobs while not making what we consume here, is utter insanity. There isn't another way to do it, period. To even entertain that there is, is the problem we have today, but that kind of thinking comes from an incoherence in thinking.

                                This idea of having the cheapest priced goods by not making what we consume gives us what you see today in America. Have you even looked? Obviously not. You are living in a bubble. You are not paying attention.

                                Tariffs did not create the crash of 29, and the great depression. We tried to use tariffs to put people back to work, but financial driven crashes and depressions are not fixed by tariffs. Tariffs, protect jobs that already exist in a normal economy and alone cannot pull one out of a financial caused depression.

                                There are economists, past and present, that are not paid economists by elite special interests groups, that will tell you real quick that having the cheapest possible consumer goods, over employing your own people is utter insanity, unless of course, you only want corporations and the banking cabal to max out their own profits. But that comes at a great cost, and that cost now can be seen all over this nation that were industrial areas since the industrial revolution. You see in it those towns, that cannot raise enough tax money from business and citizens in order to keep their infrastructure up. This is a cancer, what you and your ilk are supporting, and even the damage that it has caused and is causing, and will continue to cause makes no difference at all. You know why? Damned ideological beliefs, that are only favorable to the elites of this nation. We have loads of right side americans, white working people, that have supported this damned GOP neoliberalism, which has literally cut their own throats. Thankfully, right now, there are millions of those people who are finally waking up and seeing that neoliberalism(even if they do not know what it is, and its reason for existence) has done to the working class and middle class in this nation. Sure, they are supporting Trump on the GOP side, but he has brought up what these people are finally seeing as one of the problems, free trade that gutted America of jobs. Which until first sanders and then him, made this an issue, the Dem Party and the GOP were verboten to even speak of it, and MSM would never mention what it has done to the average American. So now, Clinton has flipped flopped and come out against this sovereign robbing, job stealing TPP, for she is starting to notice that the people are finally waking up, and understanding that the cheapest widgets guts America of jobs. And jobs is what people have to have in order to live. And unless you protect those jobs, they will go to 56 cents labor in Vietnam.


                                Then you are incompetent, and here is why..........................are you going to follow this, or go into your socialist diatribe............... under the CURRENT method, I have 100 dollars. I spend 100 dollars, find the best prices I can, and live as well as I can for 100 dollars.

                                BLUE DOGGY SOCIALIST WAY.....................I, the almighty know all, see all, feel all Blue Doggy, decree that you can no longer spend your 100 dollars to live as well as you can, because I, the know all-see all, have just raised tariffs so that Americans can go to work. Now give me your applause underlings!

                                Wait, wait; what do you mean you need some government assistance to live now, you can still spend your 100 dollars?!?!?!?!?! Oh my, I didn't realize as the mighty Blue Doggy, that now prices have risen, and your 100 dollars will now not go any where near as far.

                                Oh, oh. Now the workers are screaming at me too. Don't they know I am the all knowing, all seeing Blue Doggy with a socialist plan! They are screaming at me, the mighty Blue, because they are getting laid off when I promised them a good job, because now everybodys 100 bucks doesn't go near as far at these prices; so they can't afford all the goods they once could. Geeze, I thought we would just build everything we needed with our own people, and it would work out perfectly. Wait, thought. I mean I knew, I am the mighty Blue Doggy!

                                Hmmmm, same things are happening, I the mighty Blue Doggy; must come up with MORE government planning to solve the problem. Since I am the know all, see all socialist, should be no problem.

                                I have it! I will RAISE taxes significantly on the workers that I gave a raise to that now build our American goods, and TRANSFER THE WEALTH to those who only made 100 bucks. I am Blue Doggy the GENIUS, and I have just proved it!!!!!! Now, the 100 dollar people will live like they did before. Time for my golf game!

                                Ring-ring. Yes, this is the know all see all Blue Doggy, how can I help you? What do you mean the illegal immigrants want a job, or get transfer of wealth to match the 100 dollar people. And what? They want free Blue Doggycare too!!!!!!!!! And OMG, my American workers are threatening to join a union and want a 13% raise causing inflation, the 100 dollar people are claiming income inequality, and the occupy Wall Street people are pooping all over my back yard while they are sitting in singing, "Blue I'm Blue, Heartache on Heartache!"

                                If it wasn't for me getting a chance to get my know all-see all face on MT Rushmore, I would just have let the conservative win in the 1st place and fix it!

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