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No, not communism, nor socialism, but oligarchy...

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

    I think you're about 98 % right. But there's something that doesn't quite fit - something missing. I'm not sure exactly what it is.

    Maybe it's just man-kinds corrupt nature in general - greed, lust .. all the rest. . I don't know ?
    What is missing is I didn't rant on about our economic model being changed, to mostly benefit those at the top. And of course, sociopathic greed, which is worse than your normal run of the mill greed, is found there, as it has always been found in the people that get rich and stay rich, piling the gold higher and higher.

    If we ever figure out a way, of keeping sociopaths from governing, and exploiting the rest of humanity, in the interest of this sociopathic greed, we might actually start making the world a better place. But we have been on this same path, since the rise of civilization...

    Christ said the meek will inherit the earth...but one wonders about that. LOL Man, as we know him, will not inherit anything but the grave. And we used to bury his gold with him, but now, we pass it on to his kids, so they can get out of working, the way the rest of humanity has to do. Of course, many of those gold laden tombs were robbed, later on, and probably by the his lazy kids, who were the original "gold diggers"... You know, to get what was rightfully theres...the old entitlement mentality.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #47
      Originally posted by radcentr View Post
      Median income for individuals would be significant. For households, we would need the a number of people per household to compare. Median income per person within each household, for instance. Mentioned in BD's post. That's an improved effort all the same, OMD. Median income adjusted for inflation is a better measure than average, for number of people in poverty. An actual portion of the population in poverty measured over the last few decades would be a better way to see a trend, however.

      OTOH, you failed to answer the other question. I'll re-phrase it:
      -What would conservatives do, knowing that capitalism is generally not designed to handle issues causing poverty?
      I could tell you what they would do, if one uses conservative talk radio, the hosts, the callers, solution. These poor just need to get off their lazy arses. For all that stops them from being rich, like the other 300 million is a lack of motivation, and the fact they are just lazy.

      Of course, the fact is, capitalism has poverty built into it, so, poverty under capitalism will always exist. Now, the degree of it, is determined by the kind of capitalism being exercised. Our current neoliberal model, creates much more of it, than other models Capitalism, left alone, creates a small middle class, and many working poor. It can be managed, to create a large middle class and less in poverty. That is, it would inhibit as much going to the top dogs, and be structured to spread that out better, in the form of wages. By gov't policy and then of course unions.

      This of course is deemed socialism by some, yet capitalism is still the economic model. So if you allow capitalism to be dictated by human nature, you get one thing, if you do not allow that, but use it as a way to make the greatest number to thrive, even if you still are using capitalism, the right side start hollering socialism. It is the damn-dest thing, that way of thinking.

      I like the way some northern European nations have used capitalism, as a means to benefit the greatest number in their population. They have a different idea of an economy. They actually think it should benefit the greatest number of people, for afterall, it is what feeds the people, and gives the standard of living. This is the intelligent way to operate. It really is not intelligent at all, to structure capitalism to send too much income and wealth to the top few, for it always creates, and will always create such problems within the society that allows it. We know this historically, yet the belief in an ideology, that always fails, makes no difference to those that have bought into it, and believe in it, almost to the level of a religious faith. So we know what a great disparity in income leads to, and yet some will still support allowing that to happen. I will never really completely understand it. Unless I just chalk it up to ignorance of thousands of years of history. That and the power of a "belief".

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #48
        It is amazing to see people arguing so passionately that the super rich would somehow lose all motivation if they were paid even slightly less.
        I don't think Bill Gates would have become a despondent recluse if he'd only earned 5% of what he has now.
        I think he could get by with a measly $2 billion in the bank but conservatives honestly think the rich should always get richer no matter how much of the nation's wealth they hoover up.

        They don't see the simple fact that if a company pays the people at the top vastly inflated wages they have less to pay everyone else.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #49
          Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
          It is amazing to see people arguing so passionately that the super rich would somehow lose all motivation if they were paid even slightly less.
          I don't think Bill Gates would have become a despondent recluse if he'd only earned 5% of what he has now.
          I think he could get by with a measly $2 billion in the bank but conservatives honestly think the rich should always get richer no matter how much of the nation's wealth they hoover up.

          They don't see the simple fact that if a company pays the people at the top vastly inflated wages they have less to pay everyone else.

          What drives the people who become rich, will not be affected, if being rich is having 100 grand in assets, or 100 billion in assets. And that is WHY we had less rich people, that is, their degree of wealth was less than it is now, when we had a thriving and growing middle class. Wealth is relative. As long as these people can have exponentially more than others, that is all that matters. So, if the income and wealth was more fairly distributed between the owners and the workers, and you only had millionaires in the low millions, while you had a large prosperous middle class, this would not cause those millionaires to just give up, and lose all motivation. But much of conservatives beliefs, are not grounded in reality, so they always will make mistakes, in what they choose to believe.

          Another belief that conservatives seem to have, is this false belief that anyone, if not lazy, is motivated, can be rich. As if that is the only thing it takes. But then, WHO would do the work, for all of these rich people, that allowed them to keep a larger portion of the income pie for themselves? So, reality says, only a small number of people can ever be rich, for they require hordes of other people, who are not rich, but in need, in order to create the wealth in the first place. Yet these people, those who create the actual wealth, are rather insignificant when it comes to the conservative mind.

          So if one sees this reality, then the only question is, how much of the income pie, should go to the workers? Since only a few can be rich. Should we trust a free market, that does not exist in reality, but is always rigged in favor of the owners? Or should we allow workers to bargain for higher wages? Most cons, say unions are bad, and that workers should take the crumbs the greed driven toss at them. So, again they do not value workers, but only the owners, the rich. For they fear, if you do not allow a man to keep a billion of the income created by others, but only a few million, that he will get pissed off, and live the life of a pauper. LOL. It really is funny, if so many working people did not suffer because of such a silly belief.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #50
            Germany has done one better by showing what prosperity results, with proper balance between socialist and capitalist economic factors. Link:
            If the top 1% actually created more jobs as they became wealthier, then ordinary people would be surrounded by employment opportunities in both the US and the UK. Instead, it is in Germany, where the wealthiest 1% receives in pay and bonuses half as much as their counterparts in the US, that unemployment is at a 20-year low. In countries that keep their top 1% in check, the highest earners work more effectively for the good of all, or at the very least create a little less misery.
            http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...cts-inequality

            The reason the wealthy don't do as well in countries they completely dominate, is because of that domination. Communist countries fail in large part because the lower income groups consistently dominate policy decisions. Fascists fail because the wealthy are -by default- in the driver's seat. People complete the failure because they place their faith in a political class, which pretends to answer to the dominant class. We have seen what happens in "push comes to shove" situations: Dictators make people "disappear" within the dominant class, while the 'enemy' class is frequently disposed of in public. Proof (sarcasm) that the fearless leader is keeping the dominant ones "safe". The Republic, OTOH, triangulates power to ensure that no one can dominate the other without resistance. The working poor dominate and squeeze too much from the wealthy, innovators (wealthy job creators) leave or do not produce. Economy stagnates, socialist-leaning politicians take the blame and are voted out (Spain, former Soviet Union, etc.) OTOH, wealth-dominated leaders are unable to produce employment due to economic imbalance, which crashes against growing population, resulting in revolution (French, Bolshevik/Russian). Extremes in political and economic solutions are unnecessary, but only when people pay attention and use solutions from mixed market economies that have done well over time.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #51
              Originally posted by radcentr View Post
              Germany has done one better by showing what prosperity results, with proper balance between socialist and capitalist economic factors. Link:

              http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...cts-inequality

              The reason the wealthy don't do as well in countries they completely dominate, is because of that domination. Communist countries fail in large part because the lower income groups consistently dominate policy decisions. Fascists fail because the wealthy are -by default- in the driver's seat. People complete the failure because they place their faith in a political class, which pretends to answer to the dominant class. We have seen what happens in "push comes to shove" situations: Dictators make people "disappear" within the dominant class, while the 'enemy' class is frequently disposed of in public. Proof (sarcasm) that the fearless leader is keeping the dominant ones "safe". The Republic, OTOH, triangulates power to ensure that no one can dominate the other without resistance. The working poor dominate and squeeze too much from the wealthy, innovators (wealthy job creators) leave or do not produce. Economy stagnates, socialist-leaning politicians take the blame and are voted out (Spain, former Soviet Union, etc.) OTOH, wealth-dominated leaders are unable to produce employment due to economic imbalance, which crashes against growing population, resulting in revolution (French, Bolshevik/Russian). Extremes in political and economic solutions are unnecessary, but only when people pay attention and use solutions from mixed market economies that have done well over time.
              All of this is just common sense to me. We have examples of these economies today, we have ours, we have Germany's and northern European nations who are using a mixed model, and we have the numbers to show what each yields. So we can know, what works out the best for the greatest number of people in a nation. And that is how we should look at an economy, and emulate those that do a better job than ours. In the interest of the People. What keeps it from happening, are ideological beliefs, which obviously are much more important than the health and welfare of a People. It really is insanity, basic insanity.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #52
                I think you're forgetting that "USA, USA, USA" and how US conservatives know better than mere facts about tiny Northern European nations and how they run their puny economies. It may work in Germany but it can never work in the mighty USA.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #53
                  Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                  I think you're forgetting that "USA, USA, USA" and how US conservatives know better than mere facts about tiny Northern European nations and how they run their puny economies. It may work in Germany but it can never work in the mighty USA.
                  I do recognize it would have to be tweaked, but we are the richest nation, in the history of humanity, but of course, with much of that being vested into the hands of around 158 families. But the basic principles are valid, and much more moral than our immorality. But we cannot say it's immoral, for we allow our capitalists the luxury of being outside of morality, we exempt them from it, while holding everyone else to it. So, you can sell drugs, and get 30 years in prison, but you can sell out the nation, on wall street, crash the world economies, and get a bonus. If you raise hell about this, you are given that old saw, "America, love it or leave it."

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #54
                    You may be the richest now but the richest in the whole of history?

                    I think the Roman Empire at its height would like a word as compared to everyone else at the time they were much further ahead than the US is to say, China now.

                    They were so far ahead we even named the few hundred years after them the dark ages and I don't think the eventual toppling of the US as number 1 economy will have anywhere near the same impact.

                    Sorry for the off topic ramble I just have a soft spot for the Roman Empire.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                      You may be the richest now but the richest in the whole of history?

                      I think the Roman Empire at its height would like a word as compared to everyone else at the time they were much further ahead than the US is to say, China now.

                      They were so far ahead we even named the few hundred years after them the dark ages and I don't think the eventual toppling of the US as number 1 economy will have anywhere near the same impact.

                      Sorry for the off topic ramble I just have a soft spot for the Roman Empire.

                      Yeah, I think the richest in the history of the world. In so far as an empire. Some people say, that there isn't an American Empire, but Empires in the 21st century would be different than the old empires. I mean, we have 1400 military bases in 120 odd nations. We circle the globe. If we do not want a leader of another nation to be in power, we break international law, that other more intelligent americans helped to write, and we remove them. If not by outright invasion, then by covert CIA operations. We assassinate, we do all of those things the Dark Empire in Stars Wars did. And we even have a political party that not only supports it, but cheers it on. It is a helluva thing.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #56
                        Size matters? That has it's limitations. Bigger arrives at a point where it becomes a disadvantage (dinosaurs being the more common example). The US prospered mostly because it was a Republic, first. Not because we became the most efficient ass-kickers of the modern era.

                        Think about it for a minute. We came to be a world power after our civil war, not before. That arms experiment paid off in addition to the practice of advanced warfare, by the time we took over the larger piece of the decaying Spanish empire in 1898-9. But we changed the world way before that; the French Revolution, which started a chain reaction ending in the Bolshevik Revolution. For good or bad, that is why the US is a world power.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                          Size matters? That has it's limitations. Bigger arrives at a point where it becomes a disadvantage (dinosaurs being the more common example). The US prospered mostly because it was a Republic, first. Not because we became the most efficient ass-kickers of the modern era.

                          Think about it for a minute. We came to be a world power after our civil war, not before. That arms experiment paid off in addition to the practice of advanced warfare, by the time we took over the larger piece of the decaying Spanish empire in 1898-9. But we changed the world way before that; the French Revolution, which started a chain reaction ending in the Bolshevik Revolution. For good or bad, that is why the US is a world power.
                          Aw heck, and I wuz thinkin' it was because God was on our side....

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                            Size matters? That has it's limitations. Bigger arrives at a point where it becomes a disadvantage (dinosaurs being the more common example). The US prospered mostly because it was a Republic, first. Not because we became the most efficient ass-kickers of the modern era.

                            Think about it for a minute. We came to be a world power after our civil war, not before. That arms experiment paid off in addition to the practice of advanced warfare, by the time we took over the larger piece of the decaying Spanish empire in 1898-9. But we changed the world way before that; the French Revolution, which started a chain reaction ending in the Bolshevik Revolution. For good or bad, that is why the US is a world power.

                            The US became a world power by way of several steps, but the final one would be WWII which was won by US superior industrial capacity.
                            Capitalism made the US the supreme world power.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Brexx View Post


                              The US became a world power by way of several steps, but the final one would be WWII which was won by US superior industrial capacity.
                              Capitalism made the US the supreme world power.
                              That America no longer exists, thanks to globalization. We, in a long term large scale conventional world war, do not have the industrial capacity to win it. If China cut off her supply line, they could clothe their own soldiers, ours would be running around naked, at some point. We would have to surrender when winter time arrived.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                                That America no longer exists, thanks to globalization. We, in a long term large scale conventional world war, do not have the industrial capacity to win it. If China cut off her supply line, they could clothe their own soldiers, ours would be running around naked, at some point. We would have to surrender when winter time arrived.

                                If China cut off their supply lines to the U.S., it would go broke in weeks. It would be nothing but good for this country.

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