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Trump v. China = Trade Deal?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by redrover View Post

    Being able to bribe foreign officials to get a building built in a foreign country doesn't mean you have what it takes to set trade policy for the entire country. http://www.scmp.com/news/world/unite...trade-deficits
    ARRRRNNGTT ... wrong answer. Try again. IF Trump is up to his rear end in business with China, he clearly knows SOMETHING about international business. Being able to post a link to an obscure article you think proves your point doesn't respond to the accusation.

    ?


    • #17
      Originally posted by DavidSF View Post

      ARRRRNNGTT ... wrong answer. Try again. IF Trump is up to his rear end in business with China, he clearly knows SOMETHING about international business. Being able to post a link to an obscure article you think proves your point doesn't respond to the accusation.
      How many links would it take to convince you that I am not alone in my belief that Trump doesn't have a clue. I'll spare you the lyin' Washington Post link.https://slate.com/business/2018/04/d...er-xxxiii.html

      ?


      • #18
        Originally posted by redrover View Post

        How many links would it take to convince you that I am not alone in my belief that Trump doesn't have a clue. I'll spare you the lyin' Washington Post link.https://slate.com/business/2018/04/d...er-xxxiii.html
        I'm not sure how many you have that do not have a bias against president Trump? Haven't seen any so far so I'm not yet able to answer your question. Are you able to answer mine? I only ask because you have not yet responded.

        ?


        • #19
          Originally posted by DavidSF View Post

          I'm not sure how many you have that do not have a bias against president Trump? Haven't seen any so far so I'm not yet able to answer your question. Are you able to answer mine? I only ask because you have not yet responded.
          I read back a ways and I'm not sure what the question is that you want answered. This is a couple of days old but I heard more today within republican leadership stewing over Trump's incompetence in the area of trade. http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/3...sing-trade-war

          ?


          • #20
            Originally posted by redrover View Post

            I read back a ways and I'm not sure what the question is that you want answered. This is a couple of days old but I heard more today within republican leadership stewing over Trump's incompetence in the area of trade. http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/3...sing-trade-war
            I don't have a question. You asked how many links it would take: I answered that question.

            ?


            • #21
              Originally posted by DavidSF View Post

              I don't have a question. You asked how many links it would take: I answered that question.
              I thought you were admonishing me when you wrote "
              not sure how many you have that do not have a bias against president Trump? Haven't seen any so far so I'm not yet able to answer your question. Are you able to answer mine? I only ask because you have not yet responded."
              '

              ?


              • #22
                Originally posted by redrover View Post

                I thought you were admonishing me when you wrote "
                not sure how many you have that do not have a bias against president Trump? Haven't seen any so far so I'm not yet able to answer your question. Are you able to answer mine? I only ask because you have not yet responded."
                '
                ...and still no response.

                ?


                • #23
                  Originally posted by DavidSF View Post

                  Sounds to me like a hissy fit and not so "skillfully" played, to wit:

                  The EU (and a lot of other countries/sovereignties) grew quite comfortable with the trade imbalance that disfavored the U.S.. So when a real business man comes along and wants to level the playing field, the EU screams like a spoiled child with threats of "IF YOU DO, WE'LL MAKE YOU PAY."


                  Since this has recently gotten a lot more interesting, what about a few facts ?

                  The EU is the USs largest trading partner. It is also the source of around 60 % of total foreign investment in the US ( which means an estimated 4 million american jobs at german, british, french, italian and other companies ).

                  https://blog.trade.gov/2017/04/19/eu...united-states/

                  American investment in the EU is lower than the other way around, but still around three times the amount in all of Asia combined :

                  http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/cou...united-states/


                  While the US runs a deficit in manufactured goods ( such as cars), it runs a surplus in services ( such as IT and IT related industries. Take the likes of Facebook, Amazon, Google etc. Or Hollywood movies/creative arts. Or Software). Deficits (or surpluses) per se are nothing good or bad in economics. In the case of the US that mostly reflects buying decisions of Americans ( german cars, french wine, italian suits f.e. ?) and the Dollar beeing the (still) most widely accepted reserve currency. But we will come to that later.
                  Goods and services export to the EU alone support an estimated 2,6 million american jobs :

                  Source : A. o. The office of the US trade representative :

                  https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/e...european-union

                  https://geopoliticalfutures.com/us-c...-trade-war-eu/


                  On the subject of tariffs :

                  Most trade between the US and the EU is either completely tariff -free (over 50 % of all traded stuff), or effectively tariff-free (5 % or lower). Some substantial exceptions exist, such as on cars, where the EU charges 10 % on ALL non-EU made cars (the US only 2,5 %), yet usually they are offset on other fields. Such as the US charging 25 % on EU made buses, vans and trucks. On train carriages and locomotives it is the other way around, where the US tariff stands at 14 %, while the EU one is only 1,7 %.


                  http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/doc...%20and%20custo ms%20tariffs.pdf


                  Both parties have some of their highest tariffs on certain agricultural goods and manufactured agricultural goods. The US sugar industry is f.e. among the most heavily protected, while the EU shield their farmers with tariffs on certain products.
                  Establishing total fairness in relations as complex as this is actually not easy and requires going through far more information than a tweet. But most certainly the claim of "unfair" competition is not supportable by facts. At least not to a degree that cannot be settled in talks and requires invoking claims of national security.
                  The most reasonable way to establish a level playing field would actually have been NOT to walk away from the TTIP negotiations on mutual removal of obstacles to trade. But mutual benefits is not what "America first" implies, right ?


                  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1GQ1BO


                  Trump himself has said it after all :


                  "You hear lots of people say that a great deal is when both sides win. That is a bunch of crap. In a great deal, you win not the other side. You crush the opponent and come away with something better for yourself."


                  https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...ose-negotiator



                  You shouldnt assume that other leaders assembled in Quebec havent read these lines and others. And that may work in New York real estate bargaining. Towards other countries, especially towards Allies, it is a recipe for desaster. Obviously the EU has no choice but to respond to Trumps tariffs in kind. That is political logic, especially since noone assumes that Trump has any intention to stop there ( such as "no Mercedes anymore on 5th avenue", right ?)


                  http://fortune.com/2018/05/31/trump-...erman-car-ban/




                  A trade deficit is not debt (just as a trade surplus isnt the same as having money in the bank). And perfectly balanced trade on all fields is neither achievable nor even desirable. Yes, Americans like german cars, so what ? German companies have created a shitload of american jobs and invested a shitload of money in the US after all. BMW USA is a subsidiary of BMW Germany, but it is also an american company operating under american law and with american employees. ----and the largest car exporter --from the US. Slapping sanctions on german carmakers is not exactly going to help american manufacturing :

                  https://automotivelogistics.media/ne...s-car-exporter


                  And yes, Germans are buying a lot less american cars the other way around. Mostly because they are not suitable for their needs. Too big (Germans have little need for large SUVs or Jeeps), too fuel - hungry and especially in the premium segment lacking quality compared to european competitors. Exceptions confirm the rule : Ford is making its cars for Europe -in Europe and Tesla is doing quite well on EU markets. And GM was until last year present on the old continent with its own brand Opel ( that they sold to the french Peugeot group)
                  If tariffs were the main issue that keep Americans from competing than Japanese and Koreans ( that face the same tariffs) shouldnt be very sucessful.
                  Yet Germans are also using plenty of american IT tech, they are using Google, Amazon and Facebook, they are watching Hollywood movies, use Apple Iphones and wear Levis and I flew in a Boeing just recently. For example.
                  There are issues that should and could be adressed, but well, that is the crux : Trade negotiations can drag on endlessly, easily beyond Trumps time in office, even if reelected.

                  Yet he needs fast results, since he has raised the corresponding expectations. That is why he is pulling off this "tit for tat" game about tariffs, that soberly viewed serves no useful purpose, but at least keeps "his base" aroused (as long as they dont feel negative effects).
                  The EUs own retaliatory sanctions start in July, and my wifes former employer is on the sanctions list ( a certain american motorcycle company). Luckily she has already quit that job a while ago, since the workers are now getting concerned. Just like american employees of german carmakers.
                  Last edited by Voland; 06-08-2018, 05:29 AM.

                  ?


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Voland View Post



                    Since this has recently gotten a lot more interesting, what about a few facts ?

                    The EU is the USs largest trading partner. It is also the source of around 60 % of total foreign investment in the US ( which means an estimated 4 million american jobs at german, british, french, italian and other companies ).

                    https://blog.trade.gov/2017/04/19/eu...united-states/

                    American investment in the EU is lower than the other way around, but still around three times the amount in all of Asia combined :

                    http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/cou...united-states/


                    While the US runs a deficit in manufactured goods ( such as cars), it runs a surplus in services ( such as IT and IT related industries. Take the likes of Facebook, Amazon, Google etc. Or Hollywood movies/creative arts. Or Software). Deficits (or surpluses) per se are nothing good or bad in economics. In the case of the US that mostly reflects buying decisions of Americans ( german cars, french wine, italian suits f.e. ?) and the Dollar beeing the (still) most widely accepted reserve currency. But we will come to that later.
                    Goods and services export to the EU alone support an estimated 2,6 million american jobs :

                    Source : A. o. The office of the US trade representative :

                    https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/e...european-union

                    https://geopoliticalfutures.com/us-c...-trade-war-eu/


                    On the subject of tariffs :

                    Most trade between the US and the EU is either completely tariff -free (over 50 % of all traded stuff), or effectively tariff-free (5 % or lower). Some substantial exceptions exist, such as on cars, where the EU charges 10 % on ALL non-EU made cars (the US only 2,5 %), yet usually they are offset on other fields. Such as the US charging 25 % on EU made buses, vans and trucks. On train carriages and locomotives it is the other way around, where the US tariff stands at 14 %, while the EU one is only 1,7 %.


                    http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/doc...%20and%20custo ms%20tariffs.pdf


                    Both parties have some of their highest tariffs on certain agricultural goods and manufactured agricultural goods. The US sugar industry is f.e. among the most heavily protected, while the EU shield their farmers with tariffs on certain products.
                    Establishing total fairness in relations as complex as this is actually not easy and requires going through far more information than a tweet. But most certainly the claim of "unfair" competition is not supportable by facts. At least not to a degree that cannot be settled in talks and requires invoking claims of national security.
                    The most reasonable way to establish a level playing field would actually have been NOT to walk away from the TTIP negotiations on mutual removal of obstacles to trade. But mutual benefits is not what "America first" implies, right ?


                    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1GQ1BO


                    Trump himself has said it after all :


                    "You hear lots of people say that a great deal is when both sides win. That is a bunch of crap. In a great deal, you win not the other side. You crush the opponent and come away with something better for yourself."


                    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...ose-negotiator



                    You shouldnt assume that other leaders assembled in Quebec havent read these lines and others. And that may work in New York real estate bargaining. Towards other countries, especially towards Allies, it is a recipe for desaster. Obviously the EU has no choice but to respond to Trumps tariffs in kind. That is political logic, especially since noone assumes that Trump has any intention to stop there ( such as "no Mercedes anymore on 5th avenue", right ?)


                    http://fortune.com/2018/05/31/trump-...erman-car-ban/




                    A trade deficit is not debt (just as a trade surplus isnt the same as having money in the bank). And perfectly balanced trade on all fields is neither achievable nor even desirable. Yes, Americans like german cars, so what ? German companies have created a shitload of american jobs and invested a shitload of money in the US after all. BMW USA is a subsidiary of BMW Germany, but it is also an american company operating under american law and with american employees. ----and the largest car exporter --from the US. Slapping sanctions on german carmakers is not exactly going to help american manufacturing :

                    https://automotivelogistics.media/ne...s-car-exporter


                    And yes, Germans are buying a lot less american cars the other way around. Mostly because they are not suitable for their needs. Too big (Germans have little need for large SUVs or Jeeps), too fuel - hungry and especially in the premium segment lacking quality compared to european competitors. Exceptions confirm the rule : Ford is making its cars for Europe -in Europe and Tesla is doing quite well on EU markets. And GM was until last year present on the old continent with its own brand Opel ( that they sold to the french Peugeot group)
                    If tariffs were the main issue that keep Americans from competing than Japanese and Koreans ( that face the same tariffs) shouldnt be very sucessful.
                    Yet Germans are also using plenty of american IT tech, they are using Google, Amazon and Facebook, they are watching Hollywood movies, use Apple Iphones and wear Levis and I flew in a Boeing just recently. For example.
                    There are issues that should and could be adressed, but well, that is the crux : Trade negotiations can drag on endlessly, easily beyond Trumps time in office, even if reelected.

                    Yet he needs fast results, since he has raised the corresponding expectations. That is why he is pulling off this "tit for tat" game about tariffs, that soberly viewed serves no useful purpose, but at least keeps "his base" aroused (as long as they dont feel negative effects).
                    The EUs own retaliatory sanctions start in July, and my wifes former employer is on the sanctions list ( a certain american motorcycle company). Luckily she has already quit that job a while ago, since the workers are now getting concerned. Just like american employees of german carmakers.
                    I sure wish we had a president who understood international trade as well as you do Voland. This morning I heard someone say in effect Trump is blockading our own ports.

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                    • #25
                      You hate Trump... *yawn*

                      in other news, water is wet...

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DavidSF View Post
                        You hate Trump... *yawn*

                        in other news, water is wet...
                        Why don't you create an exclusive political forum for Trump lovers only since you are bored with those of us who are not devoted to thee emperor with no clothes. You could call it Dito heads 24/ 7

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by redrover View Post
                          Why don't you create an exclusive political forum for Trump lovers only since you are bored with those of us who are not devoted to thee emperor with no clothes. You could call it Dito heads 24/ 7
                          What 's a "dito" head? Since you're the minority here, I think YOU should start a thread for trump haters. IT would be great: No one to argue with since you'd be by yourself in there.

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