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  • #91
    Re: New revenue streams

    Originally posted by Good1 View Post
    But in this argument, portugal and the U.S. cannot be an equitable comparison because it is the relative sizes that are important, not percentages like many want to trot out when it suits their argument.

    BUT, again, as with Reality, your mind is closed like a steel trap and nothing contrary to your preconceptions will penetrate. So you can continue to focus on only those tid-bits you believe support your position and continue to disregard those that don't.
    And WHY is that? We've been asking you for a week straight now. Would you just answer the fucking question already?

    ?


    • #92
      Re: New revenue streams

      Originally posted by Good1 View Post
      It is not "reality" to insist "harm, but not as much" isn't nevertheless "harm."

      Proponents of legalized marijuana cannot argue that it doesn't cause harm. BEST point they can make is either "it's not as bad as _____________" or "it's not that bad."

      So my argument is based on the harm it does to the individual AND to society. The moral argument is subordinate to the economic argument and the physical argument.
      I can and will argue that when used by someone under the conditions that I exhort being legal (18 and over only, with regulated product that is not tainted, no DWI's allowed whether "you can handle it" or not just for safety's sake), that no harm is done.
      Your own NIDA link from earlier in the thread and my refutations of your earlier positions (the autophagy studies etc) show that clearly.

      You DO have a point, as to harm, when you are talking about UNDER AGE use. But you've yet to provide any evidence of harm beyond that other than nebulous generalizations about people staying couch locked instead of going to work. So as soon as you've got some evidence, we can talk about this.

      ?


      • #93
        Re: New revenue streams

        Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
        Same with Alcohol Good1.

        Alcohol has harmful effects, some much worse than Hemp.

        If you do a side by side comparison with alcohol and hemp I bet hemp has many more positive uses and abilities.

        INCLUDING

        Cures Cancer.

        20 Medical Studies That Prove Cannabis Can Cure Cancer | Collective-Evolution

        How Hemp Oil Cures Cancer And Why No One Knows | Alternative

        Can't say that about alcohol
        But Marijuana is not illegal because it is better or worse that alcohol. There is nothing I can personally do about alcohol being legal so the comparison to marijuana's effects is irrelevant to the argument. This is what I've tried to tell Jet and Rad.

        If I was king, I would also make alcohol (and ANY substance that has ANY harmful effects, including tobacco) illegal. But I'm not and, so, I can't; however, if one of you guys wants to start a petition to make alcohol illegal and/or a controlled substance, I'm all in and I'll sign it with you.

        my argument (which you quoted) is aimed at Jet's tacit admission that marijuana does have harmful effects on those who use it. MIGHT be only affecting teens or teens who use a lot, might be only this group or that group, but he cannot get past the obvious: IT DOES HAVE A HARMFUL IMPACT... which is why I advocate keeping it a controlled substance.

        EVEN as a controlled substance, however, it can be used medicinally (upon prescription) for those beneficial effects you note.

        ?


        • #94
          Re: New revenue streams

          Originally posted by Good1 View Post
          Statistics are also manipulated to show anything the abuser (of said statistics)wants to show so unless you're willing to go into all the reasons why Portugal's results should be expected in the United States, your lame attempt to perpetuate this argument based solely on your "command" of statistics is (still) irrelevant.
          You've yet to raise ONE cogent objection. Radcenter has explained some reasons why the CAN be compared. All you've done is say that they cannot be because our pop is bigger, disregarding the fact that some of the important demographics (youth pop etc) are quite similar. So just what is it about pop size that so changes the equation? Explain it to me as you would to a small child.

          ?


          • #95
            Re: New revenue streams

            Originally posted by reality View Post
            I can and will argue that when used by someone under the conditions that I exhort being legal (18 and over only, with regulated product that is not tainted, no DWI's allowed whether "you can handle it" or not just for safety's sake), that no harm is done.
            Your own NIDA link from earlier in the thread and my refutations of your earlier positions (the autophagy studies etc) show that clearly.

            You DO have a point, as to harm, when you are talking about UNDER AGE use. But you've yet to provide any evidence of harm beyond that other than nebulous generalizations about people staying couch locked instead of going to work. So as soon as you've got some evidence, we can talk about this.
            I provided several links that showed harm to lungs and other physical parts... that were not just limited to underage use...

            FURTHER, we can limit usage to "over 18, only" but we all know the success we've had keeping underaged kids from smoking or drinking. Setting a legal age for its use does exactly bupkis in terms of effective reality, Reality.

            ?


            • #96
              Re: New revenue streams

              Originally posted by Good1 View Post
              I don't know. My point, however, is neither do you.

              you favor the open, legal use of marijuana so when you "found" Portugal and it seemed to fit your preference, you looked no further. I'm simply not willing to accept the argument based on such a weak effort at research. You're the one claiming the comparison is equitable. It's up to you to prove your case. Of course, you don't "have to" but until you do, I'm not convinced.
              But you've been speaking from your position of authority on the subject the entire time! How could you not know but raise all these objections saying that you did know? Could it be that you've been lying this whole time so you don't have to consider the argument at all?


              Could it be that you haven't even READ the portugal link and that's why you can't come up with a cogent critique? Because I KNOW you haven't read it. Want to know how I know? Because the objection you would've made to MY position HAD you read it would've been different. Hell it could actually be a cogent objection. But then you'd never know. Why? Because you refuse to even read the article, and thus you haven't seen it a single time in the several weeks we've spent arguing this topic in this and other threads.

              I know its really too much to ask you to keep an open mind, but is it too much to ask that you actually READ the sources so you can raise cogent objections?

              ?


              • #97
                Re: New revenue streams

                Originally posted by Good1 View Post
                I provided several links that showed harm to lungs and other physical parts... that were not just limited to underage use...

                FURTHER, we can limit usage to "over 18, only" but we all know the success we've had keeping underaged kids from smoking or drinking. Setting a legal age for its use does exactly bupkis in terms of effective reality, Reality.
                And I provided several more that proved your links wrong. Of course, you ignored them and haven't read them so you can't be faulted for not knowing what's in them.

                Well we can limit it to a controlled substance too but then we all know the success we've had keeping underaged kids from smoking or drinking. Setting legalities for its use does exactly bupkis in terms of effective reality, Good_1

                ?


                • #98
                  Re: New revenue streams

                  Originally posted by Good1 View Post
                  But Marijuana is not illegal because it is better or worse that alcohol. There is nothing I can personally do about alcohol being legal so the comparison to marijuana's effects is irrelevant to the argument. This is what I've tried to tell Jet and Rad.

                  If I was king, I would also make alcohol (and ANY substance that has ANY harmful effects, including tobacco) illegal. But I'm not and, so, I can't; however, if one of you guys wants to start a petition to make alcohol illegal and/or a controlled substance, I'm all in and I'll sign it with you.

                  my argument (which you quoted) is aimed at Jet's tacit admission that marijuana does have harmful effects on those who use it. MIGHT be only affecting teens or teens who use a lot, might be only this group or that group, but he cannot get past the obvious: IT DOES HAVE A HARMFUL IMPACT... which is why I advocate keeping it a controlled substance.

                  EVEN as a controlled substance, however, it can be used medicinally (upon prescription) for those beneficial effects you note.
                  The issue in my perspective is that Alcohol was banned, what happened was many deaths by "bathtub gin", significant increase in crime, if it wasn't for Prohibition I do not think the Mafia would have become as powerful as it did or as fast. The prohibition on drugs can have the deaths of many. About 10,000 a year die to gang violence, most gangs deal in illegal drugs. I am not saying there would be no mafia or gangs but I think it is logical to believe that there would be many less deaths. Not to mention we could funnel even 10% of what we spend on the war on drugs into rehabs and do something the liberals love, give people access to free rehab and it would cost so much less than the war on drugs.

                  Another thing it would cut back on laced pot, I know a guy who nearly died because his pot was laced with heroin.

                  The war on drugs is a total failure. It has increased violence in the cities, it has increased crime. It has NOT stopped the creation and distribution of drugs.

                  Everything it is supposed to do it has done the opposite.

                  ?


                  • #99
                    Re: New revenue streams

                    I think in this thread the negative medical impacts of Marijuana use has been minimized. I add the following to the discussion.
                    • Prolonged Cannabis Use Linked To Psychosis - Medical News Today
                    • Cannabis has 4x more tar than tobacco does and it stays on lungs especially because there are no filters when you smoke joints and because you hold the smoke longer when you smoke pot. This has stronger effects on the lungs. Long term heavy pot smokers may suffer from chronic bronchitis such as coughing and wheezing and suffer from lung impairment.
                      Long term marijuana use Cannabis Addiction discussions | Emotional & Mental Health center | SteadyHealth.com
                      • Smoking three or four marijuana joints a day causes the same respiratory harm of smoking a full pack of cigarette every day.3 Each joint contains between 50 and 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than any cigarette. Marijuana also contains high levels of the enzyme known to convert hydrocarbons into malignant cells.4 Marijuana smokers inhale three to five times more tar and absorb three to five times more carbon monoxide than do tobacco smokers.5
                      • Respiratory Illnesses
                        Marijuana causes many of the same respiratory problems as tobacco. Coughing, wheezing, chest colds, and bronchitis are outward signs of more serious internal problems. Lung inflammation, obstructed airways, and impaired function of smaller air passages make breathing difficult. More concerning are the pre-cancerous abnormalities and reduction in the defensive mechanisms of the lungs. According to a Harvard paper on the medical dangers of marijuana, there are an unexpectedly large proportion of marijuana users among cases of lung cancer and cancers of the oral cavity, pharynx, and larynx.9 Deterioration in lung function and the lungs abilities to defend against harmful substances or microorganisms raises the risk of lung infections.10
                      • Immunosuppressant
                        Advocates of medical marijuana see a role for marijuana in the treatment of nausea among chemotherapy patients and loss of appetite among AIDS patients. The most glaring problem with this claim is that marijuana is an immunosuppressant that weakens natural immune mechanisms, including so called killer cells and T-cells, which are primarily responsible for fighting infection and are already deficient in persons with either of these conditions. The same Harvard paper discussing the medical dangers of marijuana use found that marijuana may in fact accelerate the progression of HIV to full-blown AIDS and increases the occurrence of infections, which are especially dangerous to patients with weakened immune systems as a result of AIDS or chemotherapy.11

                        A single joint a day can so damage the cells in the bronchial passages that they are unable to protect against inhaled microorganisms making it more difficult for immune cells in the lungs to fight fungi, bacteria, and tumor cells.12 A Columbia University study found that smoking one marijuana cigarette every other day for a year resulted in a white-blood-cell count 39 percent lower than normal.13 This significant drop is likely fatal for patients with already weakened immune systems. There is no wisdom is prescribing marijuana for patients who cannot afford another attack on their immune system.
                      • Mental Health
                        Despite claims that marijuana is less harmful than cocaine, heroin, and alcohol, it exhibits similar brain changes as each of these other substances.14 Cognitive impairment, distorted perception, memory loss, trouble with thinking and problem solving, difficulty learning, anxiety, panic attacks, depression, social withdrawal, paranoia, and hallucinations are just the beginning of the mental health complications presented by marijuana use.15 These symptoms can last as long as six weeks after the last use of the drug. Ironically, panic attacks are one of the conditions marijuana advocates are experimentally treating with the drug.

                        The American Psychiatric Association is so concerned about this aspect of mental health that the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) IV contains a complete section for mental disorders connected to marijuana use. These categories include Cannabis Intoxication (consisting of impaired motor coordination, anxiety, impaired judgment, sensation of slowed time, social withdrawal); Cannabis Intoxication Delirium (memory deficit, disorientation); Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder, Delusions; Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder, Hallucinations, and Cannabis Induced Anxiety Disorder.16 Addiction and psychiatric disorders often occur together, according to the American Society of Addiction Medicine. Research on the effect of marijuana on mental health points to the same conclusion.
                        FNC Spotlight | The Dangers of Medical Marijuana

                    • The immediate effects of taking marijuana include rapid heart beat, disorientation, lack of physical coordination, often followed by depression or sleepiness. Some users suffer panic attacks or anxiety.
                      But the problem does not end there. According to scientific studies, the active ingredient in cannabis, THC, remains in the body for weeks or longer.

                      Marijuana smoke contains 50% to 70% more cancer-causing substances than tobacco smoke. One major research study reported that a single cannabis joint could cause as much damage to the lungs as up to five regular cigarettes smoked one after another. Long-time joint smokers often suffer from bronchitis, an inflammation of the respiratory tract.

                      The drug can affect more than your physical health. Studies in Australia in 2008 linked years of heavy marijuana use to brain abnormalities. This is backed up by earlier research on the long-term effects of marijuana, which indicate changes in the brain similar to those caused by long-term abuse of other major drugs. And a number of studies have shown a connection between continued marijuana use and psychosis.

                      Marijuana changes the structure of sperm cells, deforming them. Thus even small amounts of marijuana can cause temporary sterility in men. Marijuana use can upset a womans menstrual cycle.

                      Studies show that the mental functions of people who have smoked a lot of marijuana tend to be diminished. The THC in cannabis disrupts nerve cells in the brain affecting memory.


                      Cannabis is one of the few drugs which causes abnormal cell division which leads to severe hereditary defects. A pregnant woman who regularly smokes marijuana or hashish may give birth prematurely to an undersized, underweight baby. Over the last ten years, many children of marijuana users have been born with reduced initiative and lessened abilities to concentrate and pursue life goals. Studies also suggest that prenatal (before birth) use of the drug may result in birth defects, mental abnormalities and increased risk of leukemia1 in children.
                      Immediate Effects of Marijuana and Smoking Weed | Depression, Panic Attacks and Anxiety


                    Even if we'd consider an 18 or older age limit to legal use, the problem is the negative impact of Marijuana on the developing realtively young brain.
                    The research has turned up some surprises, among them the discovery of striking changes taking place during the teen years. These findings have altered long-held assumptions about the timing of brain maturation. In key ways, the brain doesnt look like that of an adult until the early 20s.
                    NIMH The Teen Brain: Still Under Construction

                    So I'm not in favor strictly because of the health damages, because everyone else ends up paying for the Marijuana abuser's care and treatment, especially under Obamacare, as it'll be likely that the abuser will be under-performing in their work life, leading to decreased compensation.

                    Yes, yes, some will argue, quite correctly in fact, that Alcohol and other intoxicants are also damaging to health, and they'd be right. But I'd say that the damage of alcohol, or example, is probably much longer to have impact than Marijuana, and probably more easily reversible.

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                    • Re: New revenue streams

                      Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
                      I think in this thread the negative medical impacts of Marijuana use has been minimized. I add the following to the discussion.
                      • Prolonged Cannabis Use Linked To Psychosis - Medical News Today
                      • Cannabis has 4x more tar than tobacco does and it stays on lungs especially because there are no filters when you smoke joints and because you hold the smoke longer when you smoke pot. This has stronger effects on the lungs. Long term heavy pot smokers may suffer from chronic bronchitis such as coughing and wheezing and suffer from lung impairment.
                        Long term marijuana use • Cannabis Addiction discussions | Emotional & Mental Health center | SteadyHealth.com
                        • Smoking three or four marijuana joints a day causes the same respiratory harm of smoking a full pack of cigarette every day.3 Each joint contains between 50 and 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than any cigarette. Marijuana also contains high levels of the enzyme known to convert hydrocarbons into malignant cells.4 Marijuana smokers inhale three to five times more tar and absorb three to five times more carbon monoxide than do tobacco smokers.5
                        • Respiratory Illnesses
                          Marijuana causes many of the same respiratory problems as tobacco. Coughing, wheezing, chest colds, and bronchitis are outward signs of more serious internal problems. Lung inflammation, obstructed airways, and impaired function of smaller air passages make breathing difficult. More concerning are the pre-cancerous abnormalities and reduction in the defensive mechanisms of the lungs. According to a Harvard paper on the medical dangers of marijuana, there are an “unexpectedly large proportion of marijuana users among cases of lung cancer and cancers of the oral cavity, pharynx, and larynx.”9 Deterioration in lung function and the lungs’ abilities to defend against harmful substances or microorganisms raises the risk of lung infections.10
                        • Immunosuppressant
                          Advocates of “medical marijuana” see a role for marijuana in the treatment of nausea among chemotherapy patients and loss of appetite among AIDS patients. The most glaring problem with this claim is that marijuana is an immunosuppressant that weakens natural immune mechanisms, including so called “killer cells” and T-cells, which are primarily responsible for fighting infection and are already deficient in persons with either of these conditions. The same Harvard paper discussing the medical dangers of marijuana use found that marijuana may in fact “accelerate the progression of HIV to full-blown AIDS and increases the occurrence of infections,” which are especially dangerous to patients with weakened immune systems as a result of AIDS or chemotherapy.11

                          A single joint a day can so damage the cells in the bronchial passages that they are unable to protect against inhaled microorganisms making it more difficult for immune cells in the lungs to fight fungi, bacteria, and tumor cells.12 A Columbia University study found that smoking one marijuana cigarette every other day for a year resulted in a white-blood-cell count 39 percent lower than normal.13 This significant drop is likely fatal for patients with already weakened immune systems. There is no wisdom is prescribing marijuana for patients who cannot afford another attack on their immune system.
                        • Mental Health
                          Despite claims that marijuana is less harmful than cocaine, heroin, and alcohol, it exhibits similar brain changes as each of these other substances.14 Cognitive impairment, distorted perception, memory loss, trouble with thinking and problem solving, difficulty learning, anxiety, panic attacks, depression, social withdrawal, paranoia, and hallucinations are just the beginning of the mental health complications presented by marijuana use.15 These symptoms can last as long as six weeks after the last use of the drug. Ironically, panic attacks are one of the conditions marijuana advocates are experimentally treating with the drug.

                          The American Psychiatric Association is so concerned about this aspect of mental health that the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) IV contains a complete section for mental disorders connected to marijuana use. These categories include “Cannabis Intoxication (consisting of impaired motor coordination, anxiety, impaired judgment, sensation of slowed time, social withdrawal…); Cannabis Intoxication Delirium (memory deficit, disorientation); Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder, Delusions; Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder, Hallucinations, and Cannabis Induced Anxiety Disorder.”16 Addiction and psychiatric disorders often occur together, according to the American Society of Addiction Medicine. Research on the effect of marijuana on mental health points to the same conclusion.
                          FNC Spotlight | The Dangers of Medical Marijuana

                      • The immediate effects of taking marijuana include rapid heart beat, disorientation, lack of physical coordination, often followed by depression or sleepiness. Some users suffer panic attacks or anxiety.
                        But the problem does not end there. According to scientific studies, the active ingredient in cannabis, THC, remains in the body for weeks or longer.

                        Marijuana smoke contains 50% to 70% more cancer-causing substances than tobacco smoke. One major research study reported that a single cannabis joint could cause as much damage to the lungs as up to five regular cigarettes smoked one after another. Long-time joint smokers often suffer from bronchitis, an inflammation of the respiratory tract.

                        The drug can affect more than your physical health. Studies in Australia in 2008 linked years of heavy marijuana use to brain abnormalities. This is backed up by earlier research on the long-term effects of marijuana, which indicate changes in the brain similar to those caused by long-term abuse of other major drugs. And a number of studies have shown a connection between continued marijuana use and psychosis.

                        Marijuana changes the structure of sperm cells, deforming them. Thus even small amounts of marijuana can cause temporary sterility in men. Marijuana use can upset a woman’s menstrual cycle.

                        Studies show that the mental functions of people who have smoked a lot of marijuana tend to be diminished. The THC in cannabis disrupts nerve cells in the brain affecting memory.


                        Cannabis is one of the few drugs which causes abnormal cell division which leads to severe hereditary defects. A pregnant woman who regularly smokes marijuana or hashish may give birth prematurely to an undersized, underweight baby. Over the last ten years, many children of marijuana users have been born with reduced initiative and lessened abilities to concentrate and pursue life goals. Studies also suggest that prenatal (before birth) use of the drug may result in birth defects, mental abnormalities and increased risk of leukemia1 in children.
                        Immediate Effects of Marijuana and Smoking Weed | Depression, Panic Attacks and Anxiety


                      Even if we'd consider an 18 or older age limit to legal use, the problem is the negative impact of Marijuana on the developing realtively young brain.

                      NIMH • The Teen Brain: Still Under Construction

                      So I'm not in favor strictly because of the health damages, because everyone else ends up paying for the Marijuana abuser's care and treatment, especially under Obamacare, as it'll be likely that the abuser will be under-performing in their work life, leading to decreased compensation.

                      Yes, yes, some will argue, quite correctly in fact, that Alcohol and other intoxicants are also damaging to health, and they'd be right. But I'd say that the damage of alcohol, or example, is probably much longer to have impact than Marijuana, and probably more easily reversible.
                      Pot having a neuroprotective effect: Mechanisms of cannabidiol neuroprotection ... [Neuropharmacology. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

                      Your link talks about the people who are really at risk starting when they were 15 to wit "Those who had used cannabis for six years or more, and started at around 15 years of age, were twice as likely to develop a non-affective psychosis, and four times more likely to have high scores on the Peters et al Delusions Inventory than participants who reported never having used cannabis." The psychosis it speaks of? Its schizophrenia. Latent schiz can be set off by ANYTHING. If you have a history of it you shouldn't even drink caffeine. And you certainly shouldn't be smoking pot or anything else at 15.

                      I've provided links before, in this thread and others we've disucssed in, about cancer and the damage to lungs from smoking pot which goes away if you quit and doesn't exist if you eat or vaporize it. So another non-starter.
                      As to the specific amounts in your study "3 to 5 joints" is ALOT and its really the PAPER that is the danger there. For instance I'm a very very heavy pot smoker. I smoke 4 bowls in a day MAX and that's if I've got money to blow for some reason (doen'st happen). I stick around 2 bowls. The size of the tip of my thumb. I'd really prefer to vaporize, but those things are like 200 a pop and I don't feel like shelling out on something a cop could take from me.
                      Again, best way to "smoke" is not to smoke but to vape which end runs all those problems with immune systems in the lungs that you are so worried about. So those objections are quashed since vaping end runs them. Rock paper scissors.

                      O my pregnant women shouldn't smoke or imbibe psychoactives? Well I'm SHOCKED! SHOCKED!
                      THC remains in your system as a metabolite, you aren't stoned in any way shape or form after a few hours 24 to be sure.

                      The sperm cell bit wears off if you quit, but it DOES make you LESS likely to get her preggers. Keep singing its praises why don't you?
                      Yes while high you are going to be a tad forgetful. Tell me, what happens when you're drunk?

                      Your last statement. Here's what I want you to do. Do the same level of research you just did, but do it for alcohol. Don't forget to add the bit about fully half of all domestic violences start with "caregiver was drinking" and all the drunk driving etc.
                      And the all the liver disease. And all those hobos drinking listerine. And those rehabs where they have to monitor you going off the hooch SO YOU DON"T DIE.
                      Totally more easily reversible


                      If you want to kick it up from 18 to 21 then that's ok. Course I think if we want to do that we need to change selective service to 21. If they are old enough to fight and die they are old enough to get intoxicated.

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