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The great middle class is in trouble...

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  • #91
    Re: Hey, Boss, We Elected Somebody Else in Your Place Because You Think Only GUBMINTS Rule

    Originally posted by Marcus1124 View Post
    "Living wage" is one of those stupid liberal terms that substitutes for actual thinking. If all those people are not making a "living wage" how is it they do not have near 100% turnover in staff as those peolple must be dying.

    And again, YOUR preference (as stated) would be that those people receive NO WAGES.

    Here is a fact, if the worker is not being paid the value of his labor, then he would have absolutely NO trouble going and getting work from someone who will pay him what it is worth. If there is nobody willing to pay him, then he is free to work for himself.

    Here is a question for you, do you believe that fast food workers in this country are 'underpaid for the value of their work?" If so, why haven't they all just opened their own fast food places as employee owners and reaped the full reward of their labors?

    You just keep making statements which demonstrates your perception of the world is 180 degrees off. Here is a question for you, is buying a lottery ticket an act of immorality and greed?

    As for your example of an ugly man married to a sexy, beautiful woman didn't want that sort of woman to marry is perplexing and shows how shallow you are in your thinking. Why would it matter whether than man is ugly or not? Ugly or handsome, only the most shallow thinking person (both in their values and their intellectual scope) would conclude that the only conceivable reason that such a person would end up with a sexy, beautiful woman was because that was their goal. Has it ever occured to you that this person's goal was to find the person that made them happiest, a friend, a companion with similar interests and values, and that the looks were incidental?

    When did Sam Walton go from being an entrepreneur to being immoral and greedy? Was it when he built his second store? Third, fourty seventh? Unless you can give an objective answer, than you are really just rationalizing your own jealousy and fixation on others who have more than you.

    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
    I was not greedy and this caused me to pay my employees more than industry average for wages in my sector. My competitors were greedy little beings who would never pay their employees these wages, and they would often use the excuse of, " we are paying the industry average, and if you go elsewhere, the pay will be basically unchanged". I always got some of their best employees over the decades, which grew my business, and allowed me to retire early while I could still enjoy retirement. The cost? I am much less wealthy than I could have been. But I was not driven by greed, and a need to show others that I had arrived. My competitors indeed were caught up in such childish games. And their workers suffered and still suffer due to the greed of these owners. I like using real world examples, because it isn't theoretical, but actuality. And I like staying grounded in the way things really are, as opposed to some ideal created by a creative, selfish brain. And that is why I have little time for the defenders of the greedy elites. Greed is indefensible but that doesn't stop your team from defending it, or simply saying it doesn't exist in the wealthy. What else could you do, if you support the rich elites? LOL

    Originally posted by Marcus1124 View Post
    So, why didn't those people all come to work for you? Why couldn't you hire all of them? And ask yourself this, suppose you paid your employees the same as your competitors, and realized greater profit because of it. What would you have done with that extra money? You could have given it to a charity devoted to helping the truly less fortunate. Instead, Here is a question for you, do you believe that fast food workers in this country are 'underpaid for the value of their work?" If so, why haven't they all just opened their own fast food places as employee owners and reaped the full reward of their laborsyou thoughtlessly paid one group of people more than their labors were worth in the marketplace at the expense of being able to help those who had far less than either you or your workers.

    And another BIZARRO ass-backwards understanding of reality. How does hiring more workers grow your business, because if this is true, rather than some irrational example of post hoc ergo propter hoc, then every business in the world would go out and start hiring more employees because guess what world! Blue Doggy has figured out the secret to growing a business...just start hiring more people.

    Hell, I have a small business on the side (started as a hobby) Who knew that the only thing standing between me and wealth was immorality, greed, and not being smart enough to just start hiring lots of workers...because hiring workers will cause my business to grow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Let me pull out a few of your points and address them...

    Here is a question for you, do you believe that fast food workers in this country are 'underpaid for the value of their work?" If so, why haven't they all just opened their own fast food places as employee owners and reaped the full reward of their labors
    Having managed a McD's for a couple years when I was still young, yes, they are underpaid. Underpaid because if you own a couple franchises, you can live in far above the average guy, big unnecessary, pretentious house, his and her Mercedes and vacations in all of the posh locations, worthy of envy by the lessor among us. I know some of these franchise owners, and the income was so lucrative for owning a McD's franchise that you had to know someone in the McD corporation to get one of those. I know, I tried after college. And this was back when it took twice as many employees to run a shift at a McD's. These days they only need half as many because so much of their faire comes pre cooked and assembled. Was the savings in labor costs passed on to the employees? LOL. Should I have even asked such a silly question?

    Is buying a lottery ticket driven by a greed to be like the folks the cons worship immoral? If the act is driven by greed, you bet your butt it is. Is gambling immoral when you know humans are starving to death? Most certainly. But look, the morality of this society is immorality. And just as prevalent on the right as the left.

    You are not only responsible for yourself, but for others. Or you can choose NOT to be your brother's keeper as Cain chose. Your individualism is basically void of being your brother's keeper. And so your individualism itself is an immoral thing. Pretty simple stuff here, unless your head is filled with the ideas of other brains and can't actually look yourself at the simplicity of it all.

    In regards to the ugly female versus the beautiful one, have you ever known a man who would never settle for a plain or ugly looking woman? Surely you have, with your wide experience in life. He wasn't looking for just any companion, but one that society particularly liked, especially other males. Why? Because he defines himself with his property, his position, his property, even in how his wife looks. This the the ego at work, and it defines itself with the material things, including beautiful females. He is proud, he is haughty and his very existence is proof of that. If one can look without the ideological blinders in place.

    You want me to give you an answer as to when Walton became greedy, and if I don't then all that I say is rubbish? I don't like your parameters, especially when it is impossible to know when this happened since I have never spent one second in his company. I don't know him personally. And so when it happened is just a guess. When did Obama feel the need for power as to run for his first political office? You can guess, but it's a guess. But the knowledge that greed is generally present prior to creating and hoarding great wealth can be seen within the each of us, in our own self centered consciousness. I felt it at one time in my life, and most men do. If one is neurotically driven by it, they don't much care who they step on in achieving the goal of getting rich and hoarding it. Greed doesn't care about anything but the futile attempt made to satiate it. But it can never be satiated by the same consciousness that is a victim to it.

    So then you ask why all of my competitors employees didn't come to work for me? LOL. Some of them did, the great ones I kept in my back pocket to call on when needed. And those very experienced and skillfull men make me and themselves a good bit of money over the years. They made my job so much easier. No turnover, no call ins when they just didn't feel like coming to work, and they knew their efficiency meant a larger quarterly bonus. They actually felt as if they were a very important part of this company, and by god they were. And I treated them as such. Slapping a guy on the back for a job well done and with an extra pay check to illustrate I really believed that instead of pointing out his errors worked better for me. Morale in my business was always optimum. Why? Because I am not a greed driven human being. And didn't run my business and treat
    others as if I were.

    I could not run a mom and pops burger stand with the way I ran my manufacturing business. And so I would never open a business that didn't pay a living wage to my employees. And I feel those that do are whale shit. I will never exploit another human being for their labor so that I might be rich and then hoard that wealth. And I detest those that do, and I detest those that think it is perfectly fine to do a basic immoral act. Only an immoral society could ever see this as acceptable. And of course conservatives.

    If you actually think and believe that capitalism has to be immoral, you are delusional. The men of my youth who owned their own business, that I knew personally, never exploited the poor for their wages. Every single one of them paid a living wage, and felt compelled morally to do that. But they died out and the greedy took over and have no problem in not paying a man enough to support himself, even in an austere fashion. Anyone who doesn't pay a man enough to live on has no business being in business. He is an exploiter of other people. Which makes him highly immoral, no matter how much you may look up to them.
    Last edited by OldmanDan; 11-08-2013, 07:18 PM.


    • #92
      Re: The great middle class is in trouble...

      Even as a kid, when I read about people who were rich, not actors, but people who owned and ran companies.

      I didn't say, wow I deserve what they have so they must have it taken and given to me.

      I said, damn, I am going to bust my ass and become one of them through my own actions.

      I may not be 1% but if the deal I just had presented to me goes through, I will jump into something like the 4%. Not because I sat there whining about how some CEO makes millions but because I busted my ass and strove to improve myself through hard work and occasionally working for others.

      Got to love getting MS certified, Novell Certified, Red Hat Certified, IBM, Dell, HP etc etc etc certified ALL on the dime of the companies I worked for before actually opening my own. It is like going to college and having the company reimburse you for those classes that you pass. Additionally some of my coworkers have moved to management of the companies I worked for because they took those certs and college degrees and used them to move up the corporate ladder.

      People who did not sit there and whine about what someone else has, envy, but actually worked to get their piece of the pie the old fashioned way, through hard work and effort.


      • #93
        Re: Hey, Boss, We Elected Somebody Else in Your Place Because You Think Only GUBMINTS Rule

        Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
        I could not run a mom and pops burger stand with the way I ran my manufacturing business. And so I would never open a business that didn't pay a living wage to my employees. And I feel those that do are whale shit. I will never exploit another human being for their labor so that I might be rich and then hoard that wealth. And I detest those that do, and I detest those that think it is perfectly fine to do a basic immoral act. Only an immoral society could ever see this as acceptable. And of course conservatives.
        Do you eat pizza? Doughnuts? Have yo bought anything from a non-corporate business?

        What you don't realize is that people like me who own mom and pop businesses, IE Small local businesses, work hard. We are not some corporate CEO that has a contract to run a big business. You just shit on most of america with that statement.

        Go to Wal Mart, McDonalds, Pizza Hut we local business people don't want your business. I wonder if the local store where you buy something would say about you calling them whale shit.

        BD you really are less than what you call us small business owners. As far as I am concerned you insulted me directly with that statement and I have every right to respond in kind but that would be against TOS, you slid it by and I am quite sure no one other then me will say you are less than what you called me or call you to task for it.

        I hope when you buy a pizza or burger from a local store they spit in it.


        • #94
          Re: The great middle class is in trouble...

          Seems that Blue is oblivious to the business challenges that these small local business people are facing in these challenging environment.

          It seems that he believes there's an infinite amount of money to be fleeced from customers so that local businesses can over pay for the value that their employees bring.

          I already know that he doesn't believe that here is such a thing as a job market with determines the compensation rate for every role that an employee can fill, and that there is a compensation rate that is essentially self-managing.

          He's fallen into the liberal / progressive mental trap that all these things don't matter; that businesses should go out of business trying to deliver on his mandate (and then get a government bailout?), namely a living wage for every working person. Seems a rather socialistic and / or communistic point of view, in that regard. The market determines this compensation far, far more effectively than one person's or government's edict. It just doesn't work that way.

          Yes, I've discussed this a number of times with Blue, and he's unwilling to go there; unwilling to accept the reality of the situation. Kinda surprising, really, as I somehow got the impression that the was mentally flexible to accept and accommodate new information. But I've been wrong before.