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This Is What Globalization Was All About

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  • #16
    Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
    Why is it, that the origination of this is of no import to you? That sir, is surreal, at least to this mind.

    Perhaps I am cursed with the lessons taught growing up on a farm, where clear observation was important for your crops coming in, in abundance. Which makes me seek the roots, the causes, the origination of a particular thing that would forever change my nation's economic model. For if I know from when this insanity arose, I would never vote for one of those insane men again. Perhaps this is the motivation of those here who simply refuse to acknowledge the obvious? I don't know, but something strange is going on here, with you guys. For if the republican party and big business, and let's not leave out banking, is the originator, and you don't like globalization, you could never vote for one ever again. So, we must trick our own minds, into not accepting facts. Is that it? Is that why this is going on, even to the point of oldman trying to blame this on the socialists in the democratic party?

    In my book, (and its an easy to read book) the originator of nafta is of great importance, regardless of how many dems had to have their arms twisted to side with this free trade deal. That the dems conceded and voted yes is an issue too, but it does not distract from the point I have made in regards to the origination of nafta.

    The best course, and the most honest course is simply to say that it was a big business, banking, republican scheme, which Clinton believed in to the degree that he had to change democratic minds in order for it to get out of congress. That is what the facts say. And Perot correctly knew damn well what it would do to our employment, and what it would do to our social safety net spending. The trouble is, americans were too stupid to see the common sense obvious conclusion of what this would do to average americans and their ability to take care of themselves by the way of a job.

    The republican voters obviously agreed to the sound of jobs leaving for mexico, and the democrats, many of them probably thought a democrat would never sell out average working americans, and so the rest is history.

    But here is the deal. I voted for Perot, eventhough most people were making fun of his nasally voice, his eccentricities, because what he said was simple common sense> I knew what he said would transpire, if we went that route, and it is even worse than I imagined it could be. So what he said, and what I thought would happen, happened. I was right about that, and I am right about this argument on the origin of free trade, as concocted under a republican admin, who intended on signing it once other republicans introduced it into congress to be voted on.

    This is the "what is good for business, is good for America" attitude, is clearly a republican thing. But you guys won't admit it.
    So did you or did you not vote for Clinton, whom you say is the reason NAFTA passed?

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #17
      Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
      I know the lefties here want to make globalization into some kind of business bashing scheme dreamed up by the evil Capitalists but the truth is, it was started by lefties back in the late 60's as an effort to spread the wealth around the world. They were on continual rants about how much of the world's resources the U.S. used compared to the rest of the world and how we lived so much better than third world countries. This was seen by them as abusive and as something that needed to be addressed by government. Well, they can celebrate now as this is the result:

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]15050[/ATTACH]

      Chart of the greatest and most remarkable achievement in human history, and one you probably never heard about | AEIdeas

      This was their goal. This is what they pushed and marched for. Now that it has resulted in a decline in the standard of living of this country,(one of their goals) they want to blame it on evil corporations who are taking advantage of the poor to line their pockets with wealth. Once the global track was decided upon, by government, there was no going back. Businesses had to accommodate or go under. The businesses in this country were not pushing for this, Ross Perot warned against it and yet the progressives got it passed. It may eventually be a good thing but people need to understand that it was not the efforts of big business that got this ball rolling.

      Just as CRA created the housing bubble snowball, the progressives with government help, created this one. If they want to take credit for the improvement in world poverty rates, they need to take the blame for the decline here.
      From that link:

      It turns out that between 1970 and 2010 the worst poverty in the world – people who live on one dollar a day or less – that has decreased by 80 percent (see chart above). You never hear about that.

      It’s the greatest achievement in human history, and you never hear about it.

      80 percent of the world’s worst poverty has been eradicated in less than 40 years. That has never, ever happened before.

      So what did that? What accounts for that? United Nations? US foreign aid? The International Monetary Fund? Central planning? No.

      It was globalization, free trade, the boom in international entrepreneurship. In short, it was the free enterprise system, American style, which is our gift to the world.

      I will state, assert and defend the statement that if you love the poor, if you are a good Samaritan, you must stand for the free enterprise system, and you must defend it, not just for ourselves but for people around the world. It is the best anti-poverty measure ever invented.
      He said it's the free enterprise system that is responsible for eradicating the world's worst poverty in less than 40 years. He didn't say anything about the conspiracy you describe.

      You do seem to be defending this system.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #18
        Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

        Ok Blue; who really, really, REALLY saved the Big Three? Would you think that pro-union type President, Mr. Bill Clinstone? Good guess, but that would be a resounding NO!

        So then, how about we put our illustrious hero, President Barack, Millhouse, Obysmal in the mix? Well no, they would not have been around if a President before them hadn't saved those good paying jobs.

        Hmmm, musta been Carter then, right? You are kidding, aren't you! Carter was almost as useless as Obysmal!

        So then, who was it? Ronald Reagan on Free Trade That's who did it! That's right! And every one in the country damn well knew it, which was why when push came to shove, those damn Reagan democrats gave him everything he wanted, which is also why our progressive friends keep re-writing history to make him look as bad as possible. If they don't re-write history, your next President would be Ted Cruz in a landslide victory to fix, what the progressives, and rinos screwed up.

        That lousy, good for nothing Reagan, saved my plant, my job, and my company. He also saved GM and Chrysler, giving them time on the clock to retool, leading the American auto industry into some of its best years. Hell of a job for such an anti union President, don't you think!

        And guess what! He did it without giving them a friggin nickel. He told them, "I will give you this much time to fix what is broken, and that is it." It was NOT an open ended policy.

        Isn't it funny how America responds when challenged and told NOT what to do, but rather a time frame to fix themselves? That is the difference between progressives and conservatives. May I suggest you pay attention.
        Last edited by Imawhosure; 01-06-2014, 02:34 PM.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #19
          Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

          Originally posted by tsquare View Post
          You start out so well... almost.



          The change to the low skill/high pay economic model was driven by automation and computerization.

          Say it with me... 2 out of 3 jobs lost have been due to automation and computerization.

          I show you that, in your own glorious manufacturing plant, it now only takes 500 people to make one million tires a year. You completely ignore it.

          I go on to prove to you that even if you brought 1,000 similar plants and opened them in the US, only 500,000 people would get jobs... about .4% of the unemployed. You completely ignore it.
          People were and are being replaced by automation. But you are trying to use that as you ignore that communists are doing what amercans did for all of hour history, making what we consume. These factories cleaned out in America and sent to first mexico and then communist china were filled with human beings, running machines. Which is exactly what those Chinese are doing today.

          Automation did not send millions of middle class jobIf s to china sir, the ability to exploit the poor by 80 cents an hour labor is what displaced americans. Seems to me you are intent on fogging this issue up, along with others here anytime this comes up.


          If this was the democrats that devised NAFTA in secret, I would be going after them just as hard as I go after these pro business republicans.

          I cannot honestly recall Clinton's stance on NAFTA while he was running for office. I recall the republican stance and Perot's stance. I didn't vote democratic that time ,so he must have not been against it, as Perot was.

          I have a hard time believing that Clinton actually thought that this great change in how America does business was going to benefit the middle class, and provide more ladders up from poverty, as making what you consume had provided for our entire history. Common sense tells you if you offshore millions of jobs, living wage jobs, and you don't have a new sector primed and ready to hire, you are going to see lower standards of living. There was no sector in place, or even plans of one, that these displaced factory workers were qualified for, which could hire them. This gutting left a vacuum in so far as living wage jobs are concerned. That this would inevitably happen is basic common sense.

          The majority in America are not benefitting from free trade and globalization, but a few are. Coincidental? Hardly.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #20
            Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

            To be fair, the advent of globalization did not happen until Reagan and Mulroney signed the first Canada-Us trade deal, the precursor to NAFTA. That frightened the status quo, Mexico with it cheap labor force, the US with its technology and Canada with its resources was an international powerhouse, when viewed from the outside.

            I know, here at least, the socialists opposed it, vehemently, simply because it came from A) the US and B) the ever evil Ronald Reagan.

            What is interesting is that eventually everything comes full circle in both politics and economics, What was an ideology driven wealth distribution concept turned out to make sense, with the advent also of containerization, huge ships, and super technology to track cargoes. Which is when the ideological forgot it was a good idea.

            Frankly, I am astonished the US signed NAFTA. Even dolts could see that in the long term, Mexico would benefit the most, Canada less so, and the US would lose jobs but gain assets and market share. It does not look like a good trade for America today

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #21
              Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

              Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
              I cannot honestly recall Clinton's stance on NAFTA...
              You don't have to I gave you the quote... all sourced out and everything.

              So, now faced with your fevered GOP massive conspiracy, and the facts of automation, computerization and vastly cheaper shipping, (as much as 80% less) as the root causes of globalization... you're sticking with your fevered GOP massive conspiracy.

              You and Obama have much in common.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #22
                Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                People were and are being replaced by automation. But you are trying to use that as you ignore that communists are doing what amercans did for all of hour history, making what we consume. These factories cleaned out in America and sent to first mexico and then communist china were filled with human beings, running machines. Which is exactly what those Chinese are doing today.

                Automation did not send millions of middle class jobIf s to china sir, the ability to exploit the poor by 80 cents an hour labor is what displaced americans. Seems to me you are intent on fogging this issue up, along with others here anytime this comes up.


                If this was the democrats that devised NAFTA in secret, I would be going after them just as hard as I go after these pro business republicans.

                I cannot honestly recall Clinton's stance on NAFTA while he was running for office. I recall the republican stance and Perot's stance. I didn't vote democratic that time ,so he must have not been against it, as Perot was.

                I have a hard time believing that Clinton actually thought that this great change in how America does business was going to benefit the middle class, and provide more ladders up from poverty, as making what you consume had provided for our entire history. Common sense tells you if you offshore millions of jobs, living wage jobs, and you don't have a new sector primed and ready to hire, you are going to see lower standards of living. There was no sector in place, or even plans of one, that these displaced factory workers were qualified for, which could hire them. This gutting left a vacuum in so far as living wage jobs are concerned. That this would inevitably happen is basic common sense.

                The majority in America are not benefitting from free trade and globalization, but a few are. Coincidental? Hardly.
                The global majority aren't benefitting either. NAFTA was not designed to benefit the people, it was more like a Corporate Bill of Rights kindof thing.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #23
                  Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                  Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                  People were and are being replaced by automation. But you are trying to use that as you ignore that communists are doing what amercans did for all of hour history, making what we consume. These factories cleaned out in America and sent to first mexico and then communist china were filled with human beings, running machines. Which is exactly what those Chinese are doing today.

                  Automation did not send millions of middle class jobIf s to china sir, the ability to exploit the poor by 80 cents an hour labor is what displaced americans. Seems to me you are intent on fogging this issue up, along with others here anytime this comes up.


                  If this was the democrats that devised NAFTA in secret, I would be going after them just as hard as I go after these pro business republicans.

                  I cannot honestly recall Clinton's stance on NAFTA while he was running for office. I recall the republican stance and Perot's stance. I didn't vote democratic that time ,so he must have not been against it, as Perot was.

                  I have a hard time believing that Clinton actually thought that this great change in how America does business was going to benefit the middle class, and provide more ladders up from poverty, as making what you consume had provided for our entire history. Common sense tells you if you offshore millions of jobs, living wage jobs, and you don't have a new sector primed and ready to hire, you are going to see lower standards of living. There was no sector in place, or even plans of one, that these displaced factory workers were qualified for, which could hire them. This gutting left a vacuum in so far as living wage jobs are concerned. That this would inevitably happen is basic common sense.

                  The majority in America are not benefitting from free trade and globalization, but a few are. Coincidental? Hardly.
                  There are far more Mexicans in this country doing what our people did for many years than there are Communists doing what our people did. I'm not sure where you get that millions of middle class jobs number shipped to China. It just is not so. We wouldn't need to consort with China at all if we didn't owe them so much money. All because Democrats are buying votes with money borrowed from China.

                  I was not a fan of NAFTA at the time but it was not the fault of big business. It was politicians. It was government. Government in this country was being pushed by the liberals in this country and the liberals in the U.N. to share the wealth. The United States was being pressured by the left around the world for being too rich and using too many of the world's resources. This is the result.

                  Bush Sr. was not a Conservative, any more than Bush Jr. was. They were both Progressive Republicans.

                  As far as who is benefiting, the same people are benefiting from foreign trade as benefited from business in this country. Those who invest in and run businesses. Those who invest their own money to make more. These statistics about how the rich hold all the wealth are misleading at best. There are far more rich today than there were 50 years ago. There are many more millionaires than there were 50 years ago. Many of the middle class have moved to the rich class.

                  U.S. Has Record Number of Millionaires - The Wealth Report - WSJ

                  US (and Booming Market) Adds 300,000 New Millionaires

                  So all your ranting about how globalism has hurt this country, it has also helped a lot of people.

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                  • #24
                    Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                    Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                    I know the lefties here want to make globalization into some kind of business bashing scheme dreamed up by the evil Capitalists but the truth is, it was started by lefties back in the late 60's as an effort to spread the wealth around the world. They were on continual rants about how much of the world's resources the U.S. used compared to the rest of the world and how we lived so much better than third world countries. This was seen by them as abusive and as something that needed to be addressed by government. Well, they can celebrate now as this is the result:

                    This was their goal. This is what they pushed and marched for. Now that it has resulted in a decline in the standard of living of this country,(one of their goals) they want to blame it on evil corporations who are taking advantage of the poor to line their pockets with wealth. Once the global track was decided upon, by government, there was no going back. Businesses had to accommodate or go under. The businesses in this country were not pushing for this, Ross Perot warned against it and yet the progressives got it passed. It may eventually be a good thing but people need to understand that it was not the efforts of big business that got this ball rolling.

                    Just as CRA created the housing bubble snowball, the progressives with government help, created this one. If they want to take credit for the improvement in world poverty rates, they need to take the blame for the decline here.
                    You don't name these lefties you're ranting about, Dan, but I will: the Rockefellers -- most notably, Nelson.

                    Also, it's inaccurrate to blame the housing bubble on CRA because at any time Greenspan could have offset it by raising interest rates.

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                    • #25
                      Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                      Originally posted by Pogo View Post
                      You don't name these lefties you're ranting about, Dan, but I will: the Rockefellers -- most notably, Nelson.
                      It's difficult to find internet resources back in the 60's but I remember the demonstrations and the rhetoric. The same is still going on.

                      It is people like these.

                      Consumption by the United States: Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy.

                      and these:

                      America should share its wealth

                      People like John Kerry here:

                      Morning Bell: Harmful U.N. Sea Treaty Stalls in Senate | The Foundry: Conservative Policy News Blog from The Heritage Foundation

                      And Sheila Jackson Lee here:

                      Marxist Sheila Jackson-Lee - America needs to be great, not for itself but to share with the world

                      Also, it's inaccurrate to blame the housing bubble on CRA because at any time Greenspan could have offset it by raising interest rates.
                      When the government (i.e. Bill Clinton, Janet Reno, and Jamie Gorelic) come to your bank and tell you that all of your future plans will be disapproved and you will be charged with discrimination under the Community Reinvestment Act, if you don't increase the number of loans in certain neighborhoods, it makes no difference what the interest rates are. You make those loans. And then you do something to get out from under the liability for those loans you know are bad.

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                      • #26
                        Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                        None of those groups/people shape or dictate US foreign policy: the two think tanks that have and do to the greatest extent are the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission. The first has been, and still is, greatly influenced by the Rockefellers, and the second was started by David Rockefeller.

                        Like central banking, "foreign aid" is a scam. The "aid" is directed to nations according to the geopolitical interests of the internationalists.


                        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                        When the government (i.e. Bill Clinton, Janet Reno, and Jamie Gorelic) come to your bank and tell you that all of your future plans will be disapproved and you will be charged with discrimination under the Community Reinvestment Act, if you don't increase the number of loans in certain neighborhoods, it makes no difference what the interest rates are. You make those loans. And then you do something to get out from under the liability for those loans you know are bad.
                        Clinton was indeed a shakedown artist but if he had tried that with any of the banks that constitute the Federal Reserve System he would have quickly regretted it.

                        He's an egomaniac and a pig, but not a fool.

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                        • #27
                          Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                          Originally posted by Pogo View Post
                          None of those groups/people shape or dictate US foreign policy: the two think tanks that have and do to the greatest extent are the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission. The first has been, and still is, greatly influenced by the Rockefellers, and the second was started by David Rockefeller.

                          Like central banking, "foreign aid" is a scam. The "aid" is directed to nations according to the geopolitical interests of the internationalists.
                          And you don't think those people are influenced by international pressures? They react and are responsive to international demonstrations and pressures. It effects their businesses.

                          Clinton was indeed a shakedown artist but if he had tried that with any of the banks that constitute the Federal Reserve System he would have quickly regretted it.

                          He's an egomaniac and a pig, but not a fool.
                          Here's How The Community Reinvestment Act Led To The Housing Bubble's Lax Lending - Business Insider

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                          • #28
                            Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                            Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                            I'm not sure where you get that millions of middle class jobs number shipped to China. It just is not so.
                            We did ship millions of jobs to China OldmanDan:

                            Here's a graph of our manufacturing jobs. Notice that around the end of 2000, it begins the largest ever drop in the recorded history (like that global warming touch?...):


                            Source:
                            All Employees: Manufacturing (MANEMP) - FRED - St. Louis Fed



                            I can post a number of articles that mention millions of jobs being off-shored since 2000 but instead, how about a picture of China's plant and tree food emissions that happen to take a turn upward shortly after we signed PNTR:


                            Sources:
                            2013 Preliminary CO2 Figures Coming Out – China Wins! | sunshine hours
                            http://www.pbl.nl/sites/default/file...eport-1148.pdf

                            As far as I'm concerned, Clinton and the Republican house and senate royally fucked the US over with PNTR. But for different reasons.

                            I remembering reading news articles that had Republicans saying that they were concerned that American manufacturers would not be able to compete against China's imports unless they had access to their labor.

                            Clinton and the DNC received illegal contributions from the communist Chinese government and as such, I believe he pushed for passage of PNTR as payback. And he also probably had a furrow up his leg for the communists.



                            (I wonder how many of our politicians are receiving contributions from foreign countries to push for us to reduce our emissions and resource use? I bet quite a bit...)

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                            • #29
                              Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                              And you don't think those people are influenced by international pressures? They react and are responsive to international demonstrations and pressures. It effects their businesses.
                              Globalization has generated an unprecedented volume of international protests and demonstrations, which have thus far failed to bring about any significant changes.

                              The Vietnam protests put a considerable amount of pressure on the Nixon administration, which was coming to the realization that exterminating the rural population might not be such a good idea, but the primary reason for the war's end was it's astronomical cost.


                              A good read but it doesn't counter my point that Greenspan could have put the brakes on and averted the same outcome he'd recently achieved with the dot.com bubble. In fact, it doesn't even assert that CRA *caused* the housing bubble; rather, it correctly states that CRA helped bring about laxer lending standards. The Federal Reserve System, however, has brought about something far, far worse: moral hazard.

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                              • #30
                                Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                                Originally posted by FearandLoathing View Post
                                To be fair, the advent of globalization did not happen until Reagan and Mulroney signed the first Canada-Us trade deal, the precursor to NAFTA. That frightened the status quo, Mexico with it cheap labor force, the US with its technology and Canada with its resources was an international powerhouse, when viewed from the outside.

                                I know, here at least, the socialists opposed it, vehemently, simply because it came from A) the US and B) the ever evil Ronald Reagan.

                                What is interesting is that eventually everything comes full circle in both politics and economics, What was an ideology driven wealth distribution concept turned out to make sense, with the advent also of containerization, huge ships, and super technology to track cargoes. Which is when the ideological forgot it was a good idea.

                                Frankly, I am astonished the US signed NAFTA. Even dolts could see that in the long term, Mexico would benefit the most, Canada less so, and the US would lose jobs but gain assets and market share. It does not look like a good trade for America today

                                Personally, I'd put globalization well before Reagan had any national clout. I remember in the 70's and 80's how Japan was going to buy out the US (with dire warnings I find amusingly similar to what we hear today). None of the toys were made in the US anymore, they all came from Taiwan (what can I say, I was a kid), and all the cheap novelty items came from Pakistan.

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