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This Is What Globalization Was All About

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  • #46
    Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

    Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
    Do you consider it a patriotic duty for a company to lose money just so it can hire Americans? Companies that manufacture things in China would still manufacture them here if they could make a profit. In fact, they would make things in both places if it meant a profit. Businesses move to china because they need to compete with imports. Many businesses like electronics manufacturers held on here as long as they could but Japanese imports put them out of business or made them move.

    We wouldn't have to worry about cheap imports if we had tariffs.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #47
      Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

      Originally posted by Pogo View Post
      It runs ads and has recruiters on college campuses in every state.
      When it sends people into combat, asking generally isn't part of the process.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #48
        Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
        Do you consider it a patriotic duty for a company to lose money just so it can hire Americans?
        When you have a gov't that caters to special interests, the general interest -- which is everyone's interest -- goes unserved. That said, I think patriotic duty would be served by working to establish a gov't that serves the general interest.



        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
        Companies that manufacture things in China would still manufacture them here if they could make a profit. In fact, they would make things in both places if it meant a profit. Businesses move to china because they need to compete with imports. Many businesses like electronics manufacturers held on here as long as they could but Japanese imports put them out of business or made them move.
        Capitalism is inherently meritocratic, whereas the American socio-economic model is not, and it is for this reason that America lost it's technological edge and has a gov't that can best be described as an abomination.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #49
          Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

          Originally posted by 9aces View Post
          When it sends people into combat, asking generally isn't part of the process.
          I'm talking about the part where it suckers people into signing up by invoking "patriotism".

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #50
            Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

            Originally posted by Pogo View Post
            That doesn't answer my question.

            It answers your question to my satisfaction.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #51
              Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

              Originally posted by CYDdharta View Post
              It answers your question to my satisfaction.
              Living in China might also be to your satisfaction. With it's less-regulated business environment, perhaps you'd have a greater sense of patriotic duty.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #52
                Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                Do you consider it a patriotic duty for a company to lose money just so it can hire Americans? Companies that manufacture things in China would still manufacture them here if they could make a profit. In fact, they would make things in both places if it meant a profit. Businesses move to china because they need to compete with imports. Many businesses like electronics manufacturers held on here as long as they could but Japanese imports put them out of business or made them move.

                Well, usually these things are more complex than that :


                Old World Tiger: How Germany Became the China of Europe - TIME


                There is no particularly special technology needed to make a chainsaw. It's really just plastic and metal parts screwed together with old-fashioned nuts and bolts. The Chinese already make chainsaws. But that hasn't stopped German power-tool manufacturer Stihl from selling its made-in-Germany chainsaws around the world, even though its top-end models are among the priciest on the market. In fact, 86% of the products Stihl makes in its high-cost German factories are exported. How Stihl manages that says a lot about the impact a revived German economy is having on Europe and the world — both good and bad.

                The family-owned firm, based near Stuttgart in Germany's south, could shift more production to its lower-wage factories in China and Brazil, but management is committed to manufacturing many of its most advanced products at home. In contrast to the American habit of outsourcing as much as possible, about half the parts in a German-made chainsaw — from the chain to the crankshaft — are produced in Stihl factories, and many of them are made in Germany. And instead of laying off staff during the Great Recession, as so many U.S. firms did, Stihl locked in highly trained talent by offering full-time workers an employment guarantee until 2015. Stihl even added specialists to its product-development team during the downturn. The result is high-quality products that command price tags big enough — professional Stihl chainsaws cost as much as $2,300 in Germany — to make manufacturing profitable even with the nation's high wages. U.S. companies "don't try hard enough to keep production inside the country," says Stihl chairman Bertram Kandziora.






                http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn....%99s-too-late/


                In fact, the United States’ precipitous drop in manufacturing is actually atypical. Indeed, the manufacturing employment, output and market share of many other comparable countries has actually been stable in recent years. Between 1997 and 2010, U.S. manufacturing job growth was the worst among a group of ten OECD countries while Germany’s was the best.....It must be because wages in Germany are much lower than in the United States, right? Hardly. In fact, German industrial workers actually make about 40% more than their U.S. counterparts. Well then, it is because of the onerous regulatory burdens companies operating in the United States must shoulder. Wrong again. Germany takes environmental stewardship, worker health and safety and other matters just as seriously as the United States, if not more so. Even when it comes to tax rates, Germany and the U.S. are nearly identical, each with relatively high effective rates of around 28%. In addition, both countries face similar macroeconomic challenges.
                So why has Germany emerged from the recession in relatively robust economic health, poised for continued job growth and enhanced competitiveness? One key reason is that Germany has put in place a strategic, well-funded industry research institute that forges partnerships in applied research in key areas. In other words, while the United States focuses most of its R&D investment on mission-oriented research (e.g., defense and health) or basic research, Germany focuses on industrially-relevant applied research that gives their manufacturers and technology firms a leg up in global competition......Not only does Germany focus on applied industrially relevant research, they invest a lot in it. As ITIF noted in International Benchmarking of Countries’ Policies and Programs Supporting SME Manufacturers, which looked at national efforts to harness and encourage innovation in small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs), Germany invests about 20 times more as a share of GDP in industrially relevant research than the United States does.
                One key way the Germans help their manufacturers and tech companies compete is through the Fraunhofer system, made up of 60 research institutes and 18,000 employees working with universities, private companies and government agencies throughout Germany in fields as diverse as life sciences, microelectronics and materials and components. And while the U.S. federal government has been cutting investments in research, Germany has been expanding these investments. The Fraunhofer system alone has a budget of over $2 billion and Germany’s expenditures on R&D, now at 2.8%, are at their highest levels since unification 20 years ago. While combined U.S. public and private R&D levels are comparable, the critical difference is Germany’s focus on applied research in key sectors.
                With the largest government investment in R&D in the country’s history and a commitment to reforming and redesigning its innovation ecosystem, Germany has declared its intention to be the most research-friendly nation in the world by 2020.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #53
                  Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                  Originally posted by Voland View Post
                  Well, usually these things are more complex than that :


                  Old World Tiger: How Germany Became the China of Europe - TIME


                  There is no particularly special technology needed to make a chainsaw. It's really just plastic and metal parts screwed together with old-fashioned nuts and bolts. The Chinese already make chainsaws. But that hasn't stopped German power-tool manufacturer Stihl from selling its made-in-Germany chainsaws around the world, even though its top-end models are among the priciest on the market. In fact, 86% of the products Stihl makes in its high-cost German factories are exported. How Stihl manages that says a lot about the impact a revived German economy is having on Europe and the world — both good and bad.

                  The family-owned firm, based near Stuttgart in Germany's south, could shift more production to its lower-wage factories in China and Brazil, but management is committed to manufacturing many of its most advanced products at home. In contrast to the American habit of outsourcing as much as possible, about half the parts in a German-made chainsaw — from the chain to the crankshaft — are produced in Stihl factories, and many of them are made in Germany. And instead of laying off staff during the Great Recession, as so many U.S. firms did, Stihl locked in highly trained talent by offering full-time workers an employment guarantee until 2015. Stihl even added specialists to its product-development team during the downturn. The result is high-quality products that command price tags big enough — professional Stihl chainsaws cost as much as $2,300 in Germany — to make manufacturing profitable even with the nation's high wages. U.S. companies "don't try hard enough to keep production inside the country," says Stihl chairman Bertram Kandziora.






                  America must learn from Germany – before it


                  In fact, the United States’ precipitous drop in manufacturing is actually atypical. Indeed, the manufacturing employment, output and market share of many other comparable countries has actually been stable in recent years. Between 1997 and 2010, U.S. manufacturing job growth was the worst among a group of ten OECD countries while Germany’s was the best.....It must be because wages in Germany are much lower than in the United States, right? Hardly. In fact, German industrial workers actually make about 40% more than their U.S. counterparts. Well then, it is because of the onerous regulatory burdens companies operating in the United States must shoulder. Wrong again. Germany takes environmental stewardship, worker health and safety and other matters just as seriously as the United States, if not more so. Even when it comes to tax rates, Germany and the U.S. are nearly identical, each with relatively high effective rates of around 28%. In addition, both countries face similar macroeconomic challenges.
                  So why has Germany emerged from the recession in relatively robust economic health, poised for continued job growth and enhanced competitiveness? One key reason is that Germany has put in place a strategic, well-funded industry research institute that forges partnerships in applied research in key areas. In other words, while the United States focuses most of its R&D investment on mission-oriented research (e.g., defense and health) or basic research, Germany focuses on industrially-relevant applied research that gives their manufacturers and technology firms a leg up in global competition......Not only does Germany focus on applied industrially relevant research, they invest a lot in it. As ITIF noted in International Benchmarking of Countries’ Policies and Programs Supporting SME Manufacturers, which looked at national efforts to harness and encourage innovation in small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs), Germany invests about 20 times more as a share of GDP in industrially relevant research than the United States does.
                  One key way the Germans help their manufacturers and tech companies compete is through the Fraunhofer system, made up of 60 research institutes and 18,000 employees working with universities, private companies and government agencies throughout Germany in fields as diverse as life sciences, microelectronics and materials and components. And while the U.S. federal government has been cutting investments in research, Germany has been expanding these investments. The Fraunhofer system alone has a budget of over $2 billion and Germany’s expenditures on R&D, now at 2.8%, are at their highest levels since unification 20 years ago. While combined U.S. public and private R&D levels are comparable, the critical difference is Germany’s focus on applied research in key sectors.
                  With the largest government investment in R&D in the country’s history and a commitment to reforming and redesigning its innovation ecosystem, Germany has declared its intention to be the most research-friendly nation in the world by 2020.
                  I own two Stihl chainsaws. Neither cost anywhere near $2300 but I agree that they are the best chainsaws on the market. I do believe that the U.S. is missing out on the manufacture of high end products. It seems we would rather cater to quantity than to quality. There is a market in this country for high end products even at a premium price but it seems to be ignored by U.S. manufacturers. Even retail caters to the lowest common denominator. Costco is a success over many of the big box retailers because it offers higher end products at higher prices.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #54
                    Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                    Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                    I own two Stihl chainsaws. Neither cost anywhere near $2300 but I agree that they are the best chainsaws on the market. I do believe that the U.S. is missing out on the manufacture of high end products. It seems we would rather cater to quantity than to quality. There is a market in this country for high end products even at a premium price but it seems to be ignored by U.S. manufacturers. Even retail caters to the lowest common denominator. Costco is a success over many of the big box retailers because it offers higher end products at higher prices.
                    Agreed. Seems like the quality of US good and the quality of their design has fallen in recent years, much to anyone's dismay had they experienced the previous levels of quality.

                    A simple anecdote from personal experience.

                    I used to have a Craftsman single stage snowblower. It wasn't even the premium 'red' brand, but rather the lesser 'green' brand. Single cylinder gas engine with a 21" wide track. That snowblower could throw pretty much anything (heavy wet snow, almost slush), and while the chute would get clogged up from time to time, it was rare. unfortunately, I put the wrong oil in it (synthetic when it wanted dino oil), and it burned through the rod end (how do I know, the end of the rod was thrown against the engine case, and cracked it).

                    So I had to buy a replacement. End of the season sale, brand new floor display model 1/2 off. Same sort of machine, single cylinder 12" single stage.

                    Except now, unless the snow is the lightest, fluffiest dry snow, the cute clogs and the thing turn into a snow pusher rather than a snow thrower. Pain in the ass. The supposed better premium machine does worse than it's previous generation middle brand machine. I'd call that a step backwards. I'd say that the people that designed this thing didn't bother to test it under less than ideal conditions.

                    So now I'm thinking of a 2 stage machine which is twice as expensive, because the new machine just can't hack it. Definitely not a Craftsman, perhaps a Toro or a Troy Built.

                    That's BS. If I could, I'd want my first green machine back again, but it's long gone.

                    Similar stories are all over the product ranges in nearly ever facet of everything that we buy. Cheaped out beyond all belief. It used to be that US manufactured goods were well capable beyond what you'd expect, and if called on for heavy duty use, performed them without breaking.

                    I think the problem is that the accountants have taken over corporate America, and not the engineers. One can only hope that GM is setting a new trend (and in more ways than one) GM names Mary Barra as new CEO - Dec. 10, 2013 (She's an engineer and has come up through the ranks and earned her rep. - all new to the what's been going on previously - AFAIK)

                    Ahh, yes. The good old days. I guess I've just graduated to an old fart.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #55
                      Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                      Originally posted by Voland View Post
                      Well, usually these things are more complex than that :

                      Old World Tiger: How Germany Became the China of Europe - TIME


                      "U.S. companies "don't try hard enough to keep production inside the country," says Stihl chairman Bertram Kandziora."
                      I think part of the problem is US companies & US governments don't see the long term benefit of partnering with the people, & it's short sighted. The people are not only part of the equation, I would say they are the biggest component in a Country's long term success.

                      American 'exceptionalism' can only go so far. 'Might is Right' can only go so far.

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                      • #56
                        Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                        Originally posted by 9aces View Post
                        Quite true. But when you don't make it worthwhile for a company to produce things in your country.....they won't.

                        So you kinda do have to be aware of what's in companies best interests, when they're perfectly free to move.
                        Ok then, we could decide to give 70 cents an hour instead of the 80cents an hour being paid to communists by our MNCs and charge 0 in corporate tax.

                        Unless you can drop wages below what is being paid the communists, you won't entice big business back. They left because of the cheap labor being offered by communist china, in exchange for communist made goods being sold tariff free here in the US, the world's largest consumer market.

                        Unless something has changed, the biggest thing china buys from us is scrap metal.

                        I am simply amazed at the cons here who actually believe the labor costs in first mexico and then china didn't drive the deindustrialization of America. I don't think the political and economic ideology allows for objective observation. For some reason, you guys just won't admit that big business wanted to exploit the poor for their labor, as we would not allow them to do that here. So you spend great time and energy in trying to say labor costs if a factor, wasn't the driving fact. And you would be wrong.

                        If its good for business, hell, it is good for America. The republican party in a nutshell.

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                        • #57
                          Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                          Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                          ...

                          I am simply amazed at the cons here who actually believe the labor costs in first mexico and then china didn't drive the deindustrialization of America. I don't think the political and economic ideology allows for objective observation. For some reason, you guys just won't admit that big business wanted to exploit the poor for their labor, as we would not allow them to do that here. So you spend great time and energy in trying to say labor costs if a factor, wasn't the driving fact. And you would be wrong.

                          If its good for business, hell, it is good for America. The republican party in a nutshell.
                          These types of ideologies have not only succeeded in deindustrialization, they have succeeded in dehumanization. Starting from the false premise that 'Corporations are people,' & all of the baggage this entails allows this. It's a con game. People are being used by the tools. It really doesn't have to be this way. We could decide or choose something different. I would say the time is ripe.

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                          • #58
                            Re: This Is What Globalization Was All About

                            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                            Ok then, we could decide to give 70 cents an hour instead of the 80cents an hour being paid to communists by our MNCs and charge 0 in corporate tax.
                            It would probably help your argument a lot if you had the least clue concerning difficulties shipping goods overseas....or the costs involved.


                            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                            Unless you can drop wages below what is being paid the communists, you won't entice big business back. They left because of the cheap labor being offered by communist china, in exchange for communist made goods being sold tariff free here in the US, the world's largest consumer market.
                            Labor involving unskilled labor isn't exactly something you're going to value, or should in any case.

                            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                            Unless something has changed, the biggest thing china buys from us is scrap metal.
                            Something has apparently changed in the times since you last looked...which was probably never. The US exports more to China than they do to Russia, Germany, and England....combined.

                            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                            I am simply amazed at the cons here who actually believe the labor costs in first mexico and then china didn't drive the deindustrialization of America. I don't think the political and economic ideology allows for objective observation. For some reason, you guys just won't admit that big business wanted to exploit the poor for their labor, as we would not allow them to do that here. So you spend great time and energy in trying to say labor costs if a factor, wasn't the driving fact. And you would be wrong.

                            If its good for business, hell, it is good for America. The republican party in a nutshell.
                            There's more manufacturing jobs in the US now, than when NAFTA went in.

                            Facts...pesky things.

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