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Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

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  • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

    Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
    Jet57, I guess lets consider this another way.

    If taxes do not limit freedom then why not just take it all and call it a collective environment of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need?" Are we not hinting at classic interpretation of Marxism with the assumption of taxes do not harm economic freedom? If so, why do you not advocate taking it all?
    Originally posted by Quinn View Post
    Having a family limits an individual's freedom, having a job limits an individual's freedom, having a moral compass limits an individual's freedom ... (I could go on but I think you get the picture?). Why does an individual make any of these choices?
    Where I am at is understanding the limit. We are talking about economic function here and if there is no economic freedom issues with taxation then Jet should be advocating for taking it all (assuming the whole demand from the populace thing he was going on about before.)

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

      Originally posted by Quinn View Post
      The constitution of the United States clearly allows taxation. Article I, Section 8, states:

      "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States."
      I can understand rational debates about how the money is spent, et cetera. I can understand wanting better government. It's the 'all or nothing' debates that aren't at all helpful. Be reasonable.
      And it's that little phrase "general welfare", that limits the purpose and usage of those tax dollars. Or at least it used too...

      US vs. Butler

      The clause confers a power separate and distinct from those later enumerated [,] is not restricted in meaning by the grant of them, and Congress consequently has a substantive power to tax and to appropriate, limited only by the requirement that it shall be exercised to provide for the general welfare of the United States. … It results that the power of Congress to authorize expenditure of public moneys for public purposes is not limited by the direct grants of legislative power found in the Constitution.
      The Constitution is like your underwear, if you persist in stretching it passed its intended purpose, it will no longer perform it's intended function, to the embareassment of us all.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

        Originally posted by Commodore View Post
        And it's that little phrase "general welfare", that limits the purpose and usage of those tax dollars. Or at least it used too...

        US vs. Butler



        The Constitution is like your underwear, if you persist in stretching it passed its intended purpose, it will no longer perform it's intended function, to the embareassment of us all.
        How would you define 'general welfare'? I mean personally & present day reality.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

          Originally posted by Quinn View Post
          How would you define 'general welfare'? I mean personally & present day reality.
          Anything that serves the jurisdiction as whole, instead of the individual.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

            Originally posted by Quinn View Post
            Having a family limits an individual's freedom, having a job limits an individual's freedom, having a moral compass limits an individual's freedom ... (I could go on but I think you get the picture?). Why does an individual make any of these choices?
            Because he/she makes the choices.....they choose. The more options you have in life, the more free you are.

            In the other case..........somebody else chooses for you. Understand that there are many things our government does that irritates all of us in different ways. I may not like one or 10 things, you might not like something else, or 10 something elses. But here is the problem in a nutshell----------->if you take the human equation out of it, we can all sit down and discuss where money should go, where it should not, or what percentage we conclude each thing should get.

            Not so when you add the human equation. Why? Because the human equation can vote......in this country anyway..........and so you have the proponents of such things, allying with the receivers of such things, and that is a huge block. That doesn't make the policy correct, moral, or the best; it just allows it to pass.

            Once the tipping point of over 50% is reached, anyone who works is DOA. I would ask this question, and no offense to OMD as I am using him as an example.....or maybe TSQUARE to, so you to gentlemen, please forgive me for invoking your names--------------> I have been no where near as successful as these 2 gentlemen have, if their posts are accurate. And yet, I am comfortable with what I have, and I live much better than most people across our globe. I will not go into my holdings or toys........but if the I am comfortable with where I am, if the government can supply me the way to live this lifestyle by taking from them, then why would I want to get up at 4 or 5AM and go to work? Why not just demand they give me more of their stuff?

            And if I have the majority of the vote because more than 50% receives gifts from Washington.....should OMD and TSQUARE be unable to provide me more, then maybe I should start looking at all of you. Heck, I can't lose, I have the numbers, and I obviously have no idea or care about economics. I am not stupid, I am not lazy, I am just comfortable............and I am sure everyone who receives gifts thanks you for your support, and if you don't give us gifts yet....you will when more of the well runs dry.

            It really is our country. How you want it run is up to you. If the right way, was the easy way, then no countries would be in the mess they find themselves in. Anyone, who pays attention to any media, has been warned repeatedly. No EXCUSES are acceptable any longer. You either want to fix and save it, or go along with the status quo.

            Not one progressive, not O-N-E can tell you where the money will come from to continue on with there grand ideas. So before you choose sides, at least make them explain how they are going to finance their grand ideas. The answer they give you, if completely honest, will more than likey having you fleeing from their side of the debate.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

              Originally posted by Commodore View Post
              Anything that serves the jurisdiction as whole, instead of the individual.
              Things like defense, public roads, publicly funded infrastructure & maintenance, publicly funded communication infrastructure, publicly educated citizens, publicly funded electricity, water, gas, & other utilities, publicly funded information, technology, research & development, & publicly funded social insurance & investment.

              What if you don't use one or more of these? Does paying for something you don't agree with impact your freedom?

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

                Originally posted by Quinn View Post
                The constitution of the United States clearly allows taxation. Article I, Section 8, states:


                & the 16th Amendment states:



                Taxation is not theft. & the contract that allows taxation is a social contract between the people & the people's government.

                I can understand rational debates about how the money is spent, et cetera. I can understand wanting better government. It's the 'all or nothing' debates that aren't at all helpful. Be reasonable.
                Again, a diversion. I didn't say taxes weren't necessary. I didn't say the government didn't have the right to tax. What I said is that taxes take away freedoms and that taxes are used to control behavior.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

                  Originally posted by Quinn View Post
                  If this Country was like a Condominium Association, people who didn't want to pay for the commons wouldn't last long. Those folks paying their common fees would start to resent those who refused to pay because they would have to pony up to make up the difference.

                  The analogy might be faulty however I think most people are reasonable. & this is still a good Country.
                  We have that right now. I pay for the commons but there are millions out there who pay nothing. In fact, they get money from people like me. And yes, we resent those who pay nothing and actually get money back after paying nothing in.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

                    Originally posted by Quinn View Post
                    Things like defense, public roads, publicly funded infrastructure & maintenance, publicly funded communication infrastructure, publicly educated citizens, publicly funded electricity, water, gas, & other utilities, publicly funded information, technology, research & development, & publicly funded social insurance & investment.

                    What if you don't use one or more of these? Does paying for something you don't agree with impact your freedom?
                    Most of what you mentioned are available for all and thus for the general welfare. Unemployment, SNAP, welfare, housing subsidies, EITC, Obamaphones, etc. are for the welfare of the individual, not for the welfare of all. These are used to buy votes.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

                      Originally posted by Quinn View Post
                      Things like defense, public roads, publicly funded infrastructure & maintenance, publicly funded communication infrastructure, publicly educated citizens, publicly funded electricity, water, gas, & other utilities, publicly funded information, technology, research & development, & publicly funded social insurance & investment.

                      What if you don't use one or more of these? Does paying for something you don't agree with impact your freedom?
                      Lets pick that list apart for a minute, because even if a government operation in envisioned for the general welfare, that doesn't automatically mean it functions in that way.

                      Defense is something everybody uses, but we still have an expectation that those resources be used most effectively. Since the end of the Cold War the military has been systematically striped of its ability to support itself logistically, reducing responsiveness and greatly increasing the cost of operations. Whats the point of having a military if you have to cut another giant check to politically connected private contractors just to deploy it. But both parties have allowed it to happen so they can simultaneously allocate the construction of sexy weapons systems in as many districts as possible, while also making it as difficult as possible to deploy our forces in a manner morally consistent with the principles we are suppose to stand for as a nation.

                      Public infrastructure enables the free movement of ideas goods and services, but again, that money has to be used as effectively as possible. Unfortunately, anything attached to the public employees unions it going to be loaded with graft and corruption. Anytime it becomes the DOT's best interest to intentionally build an inferior road so that they have to do it again in a couple of years, then the public is being abused. The same could be said of any other public infrastructure.

                      Education in another area where public unions have run amok. But that problem takes an additional and insidious turn when state instituted curriculum requires a uniform approach to teaching that effectively teaches fewer and fewer children. Any community would be well served by a public school in the sense that it can serve as a place for young and old to learn and congregate, but we have to break the monopoly of the public teachers unions and allow parents to pick the style and delivery of content of education so that it kids can apply it to their lives. Otherwise its just a waste. So build the building, but leave the teaching to the parents and the teachers.

                      Medical spending is another area that the wide scale application of tax payer dollars does more harm than good. Don't get me wrong, the public has an interest in health care, an unchecked communicable outbreak would cut civilization off at the knees. But federal Medicaid and Medicare funding has inflated the cost of healthcare, and then the government tries to slap a band aid on this cancer with Obamacare. Instead of competing to reduce costs, providers are instead forced to try to charge as much as they can to get as much of the pot of tax payers dollars as they can, before the office down the street does. Infrastructure is again the answer. You can use public funds to build a a public hospital, a clinic, a testing facility, you can even have a pill factory, but the patient has to pay for the doctors time, and the supplies they use. That is the only way its ever going to be sustainable.

                      The so called "social safety nets", pensions, or entitlement are nothing more than a diabolical trap. When the program was initiated, very few ever reached the age to collect, but most immediately thereafter population growth exploded after World War II, and then immediately plummeted with the sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll generation, and has yet to recover, guaranteeing a collapse in the decades to come. Companies and municipalities that offer retirement programs struggle to support multiple generations of employees. The smart people saw this coming and developed private investment strategies, making the managers very wealthy but also driving every segment of the economy to the lowest common denominator while gambling with everyone's financial future. The solution is once again infrastructure, this time, a personal one. Instead working for a nest-egg of fiat currency, why are we not working to build for ourselves, every person and family, a durable life support system that provided for their physical needs. Such systems devised to support astronauts in space, or on the surface of another world would be more than able to sustain-ably support life on Earth. That will be more worthwhile and beneficial than artificially inflating a fiat currency.

                      It's not merely what it is spent on, but how it is spent.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

                        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                        Again, a diversion. I didn't say taxes weren't necessary. I didn't say the government didn't have the right to tax. What I said is that taxes take away freedoms and that taxes are used to control behavior.
                        I agree with much of what you say here. I think taxes are necessary & the government has the right to tax. Taxes may take away some freedoms however many see this as the price one pays for living in a more civilized community. Paying a tax to have your garbage removed may be worthwhile for many because the price seems reasonable & it may give you the freedom to do something preferable in the time it would take you to do it yourself. & the fact that one uses services implies a consent to be taxed although it also implies a control especially because you can't pick & choose which services to pay for. Even when you choose not to use a service, like using private education rather than public, you are still required to pay for public education.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

                          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                          Most of what you mentioned are available for all and thus for the general welfare. Unemployment, SNAP, welfare, housing subsidies, EITC, Obamaphones, etc. are for the welfare of the individual, not for the welfare of all. These are used to buy votes.
                          Do the republicans also buy votes? Of course it wouldn't the votes of the poor....

                          You only get the moral high ground if your party isn't doing what you accuse the dems of doing. Giving something back if elected. Those that lobby congress are actually involved in vote buying. Do as they want, and they will not only vote for you, but will contribute great sums to get you elected. When the congressmen open their doors to special interest money, they are buying votes. See how this works?

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

                            Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                            Do the republicans also buy votes? Of course it wouldn't the votes of the poor....

                            You only get the moral high ground if your party isn't doing what you accuse the dems of doing. Giving something back if elected. Those that lobby congress are actually involved in vote buying. Do as they want, and they will not only vote for you, but will contribute great sums to get you elected. When the congressmen open their doors to special interest money, they are buying votes. See how this works?
                            Of course Republicans do. Politics today boils down to votes in exchange for more from the 'till, less contribution to the 'till, or some terrible combination of the two. Speaks volumes as to why taxes are in fact limitations on economic freedom and why government tends to ignore economic condition when formulating economic and fiscal policy (thus runs deficits regardless of economic condition.)

                            Game... set... and match, taxes and government spending today are all about controls and by definition limitations on economic freedoms.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

                              Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                              Of course Republicans do. Politics today boils down to votes in exchange for more from the 'till, less contribution to the 'till, or some terrible combination of the two. Speaks volumes as to why taxes are in fact limitations on economic freedom and why government tends to ignore economic condition when formulating economic and fiscal policy (thus runs deficits regardless of economic condition.)

                              Game... set... and match, taxes and government spending today are all about controls and by definition limitations on economic freedoms.
                              What Sluggo said is true. And, not a one of us is supporting either party buying votes with taxpayer funds. Why do you think when one of you guys comes up something that a republican does that is crooked, most of us agree with you..........then the thread goes away. We aren't trying to do "gotchas" with just progressives, we want to hose all the crooks. If could all agree that is a good idea, we might get somewhere in fixing/cleaning out Washington.

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                              • Re: Taxes Limit Your Freedom?

                                Of course taxes limit freedom. That's why companies are moving to low tax areas.

                                XCOR is expanding to Texas.

                                http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/tech/XCOR...161936175.html

                                SpaceX is considering a spaceport in TX, FL, or Puerto Rico.

                                http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Spa...196278321.html

                                It looks like gun companies aren't the only companies trying to escape high taxes.

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