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World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

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  • #46
    Re: World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
    You know, in the past, this would have been an act of war. We had basically done something similar to japan, which was used by japan as a justification to attack us. When you mess with a nation's economy, you are causing their people to suffer. I don't believe in this, unless you want to go to war, but then I don't believe in war except in purely self defense generally speaking.

    The longer I live, the more convinced I am that human beings are the worst of all animals, and really don't deserve to exist, as we are now. I know that sounds horrible, but that is the way I feel. Unlike other animals, we are largely insane, as that is a fact, a hard fact.
    It is a sad feeling that you have and I too often have that feeling. It is often beyond my comprehension when I see and hear of the atrocities that humans commit against their fellow man and other living creatures, but to be able to survive without going completely insane I have to keep the thought that there are many like you and me, and pray that they will one day prevail. As likely as it is not it would hard to live in this world without that hope.

    ?


    • #47
      Re: World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

      Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
      And Putin won't be killed for straying outside u.s. interests which translates as the oligarchy interests.
      It only translates as the Oligarchy interests if it is against what the people of his country want. Unless you view his entire country as the few.

      ?


      • #48
        Re: World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

        Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
        But you are talking as if we are something other than a oligarchy. You have to actually change the view of this nation, that us older folks were conditioned with. We are now an oligarchy, and these wars are oligarchy driven, no matter how it is tried to be covered up with patriotism, etc.

        This republic is a sham, it is only that in name only. Someone else is controlling this nation, the important parts of it that involves making money.
        Yes I agree, many in power throughout time have turned our republic into a sham. But it didn't start out that way and feel though the possibility is small that we could again become the country we once were. The only other option is giving up and allowing another less compassionate country rule the world and control economy. I do not see any positive outcome for the US or any less domineering countries around the globe, to prosper if we were to have the US dollar decline.
        Last edited by msc; 08-02-2014, 09:09 AM.

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        • #49
          Re: World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

          Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
          Close and clever, but no. I mean Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and numerous others. We will support them when they fight who we need them to, then eventually they become problems for someone else to deal with. In that, we often end up supporting today who become tomorrow's problems. That hypocrisy has many levels including who we support today in contrast to those we claim are a problem today.
          Perfect example! Boy did that training and assistance give Bin Laden and his men, the tools to accomplish the destruction he did against the US.

          ?


          • #50
            Re: World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

            Originally posted by fishjoel View Post
            You mean like the ending credits of Rambo III?

            [ATTACH]15361[/ATTACH]
            Hey, don't mock Rambo. I'm a big fan.. In many movies regardless of there genre, I find a little comment or line that is quite relevant and am impressed at the foresight of the person who thought of them.

            ?


            • #51
              Re: World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

              Originally posted by radcentr View Post
              I still don't see how Germany factors in to one (IMF/Dollar) or the other (BRIC alternative).

              Germany on its own has very little interest in stirring up financial market unrest over currency issues. Top trading nations and exporters actually very much rely on stable outlooks and planning horizons. You can add to the list why they wont cause or support any major shakeups points like deeply enshrined political and cultural preferences for stability, methodic long-term planning and fiscal conservatism. But also because Germans understand very well that they ALONE are lacking the size and the ressources that have enabled the US to host the worlds reserve currency.
              Which does not mean that Germany doesnt plan for a post-dollar world economy, but their plans evolve around the Eurozone. That if put on a solid footing and economic recipes that they can support, would be their monetary horse to bet on. Wether accepting playing second fiddle to the dollar, openly competing with the dollar, and/or allying with others (Brics) would depend on numerous issues that are all too far in the future to make serious predictions, especially since they are based on an strategic/economic unknown : The gamble for Eurozone reform. Angela Merkel herself has openly spoken about "no less" than a decade. Germanys main goal in any case is less kicking the US off the throne than stopping currency and monetary risks from spilling over to each others economy and especially its trade, ALSO (but not only) because of what they view as Americas mortal fiscal sins. (FED, money printing etc.). 2008 plays a role here.
              That is also where I think the OP is totally off the mark. Such a step will with certainty not be taken by Germany alone, but if at all, by a reformed Eurozone with Germany in it. Thus plenty of time to continue messing up or rebalancing our economic systems. The US however would do well to come up with a plan how to deal with a new fiscal and also political entity that is unquestionably taking shape : The Eurozone, independently of what they do at home. After the "Euro is doomed" prophets appear to have missed the argumentative bus by now.
              Last edited by Voland; 08-04-2014, 09:49 AM.

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              • #52
                Re: World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

                Concepts that are under-used in the US: longer term planning (10 years out?) We can barely handle 3 months. The Euro vs. Dollar? Money, in this case, must prove by example, rather than authority or history. If the dollar is poorly managed, alternatives will be chosen.

                I'd like to see the Euro at least consider BRIC (or "BRICE" in that case), if the dollar continues to be poorly managed. I know it is further down the road, but what would happen to the IMF if the Euro has to divorce itself from the dollar? Even if both functions survive -BRICE vs. Dollar (or BRIC vs. DollarE)- that would be a positive step. It would provide more insulation from major disasters such as 2008.

                ?


                • #53
                  Re: World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

                  Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                  Concepts that are under-used in the US: longer term planning (10 years out?) We can barely handle 3 months. The Euro vs. Dollar? Money, in this case, must prove by example, rather than authority or history. If the dollar is poorly managed, alternatives will be chosen.

                  I'd like to see the Euro at least consider BRIC (or "BRICE" in that case), if the dollar continues to be poorly managed. I know it is further down the road, but what would happen to the IMF if the Euro has to divorce itself from the dollar? Even if both functions survive -BRICE vs. Dollar (or BRIC vs. DollarE)- that would be a positive step. It would provide more insulation from major disasters such as 2008.

                  1. Well, that Germans dont believe in quick fixes on pretty much anything, from currency to football to industrial policy, and that this also affects their economic decisions and goals (that should be commented on the base of long -term plans and not quartely reports ) is trickling through also to the NYT

                  http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/op...ster.html?_r=0

                  Germany, I said, does not believe in quick fixes. It is worth repeating because it is an idea that sets the country apart in an age where a quick killing, tomorrow’s share price, instant gratification and short-termism are the norm.........The German time frame is longer.

                  Obviously though that is easier to achieve in an ordoliberal system, that encourages all-level cooperation and collective goals.

                  2. Regarding the Brics I would like to add that there is another very big unknown : To which extent those countries, with diverse alliances, interests and partners, political and also financial cultures really manage to cooperate against the Dollar (especially China and India dont exactly have a history of trust and cooperation). Which is actually no less and probably far more questionable than Germany and Allies rebalancing their european backyard.
                  So three things would have to happen (at least) to threaten the Dollar hegemony : a) The Eurozone sucessfully correcting its construction errors b) The US NOT finding a cure to its own mess c) Brazil, China, India and Russia building a working and sustainable platform.
                  Still the post-war currency architecture is going to change along with an increasingly multipolar world. If not this way than another.

                  ?


                  • #54
                    Re: World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

                    Originally posted by msc View Post
                    Yes I agree, many in power throughout time have turned our republic into a sham. But it didn't start out that way and feel though the possibility is small that we could again become the country we once were. The only other option is giving up and allowing another less compassionate country rule the world and control economy. I do not see any positive outcome for the US or any less domineering countries around the globe, to prosper if we were to have the US dollar decline.
                    I don't like the idea of one country ruling the world, for they are an empire. And all empires slant toward the evil for they eventually are run by men who are sociopaths, for it takes that sort of behavior in this world for them to get in that position.

                    The empires seem to always slant towards some form of oligarchy, for the making of great profits always gets involved, sooner or later, for a few.

                    The love of money and wealth is the most powerful force in the modern world, and of course power, but money and power go together like peas and carrots. You cannot have one, without the other in the modern world. We should therefore have a great fear of the concentration of wealth. For the world's common people generally suffer in some way when wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of so few.

                    We seem to end up with whatever system will concentrate wealth with a few, the most efficiently. And that is at odds with the best interests of the majority of any nation. Yet, it has always been the fact of the matter. The current dow jones is an illustration of what happens when you allow this to happen. The dow jones is reflecting how well the elites are doing, and no longer is an indicator of how well the others in a nation are doing.

                    That the people are so intentionally divided will insure this new paradigm will continue until society literally implodes. Today we, or Obama and other politicians are talking about the great benefits to americans of opening up Africa for American MNCs. I heard last night Bloomberg saying how wonderful it will be for exports, and how wonderful it will be for us getting cheaper widgets from those poor in Africa. But I ask, what will we export to Africa? We already know we will import consumer goods from them, for they are so poor as to be greatly happy that they now can make 50 cents an hour whereas before they were digging roots out of the ground to sustain their own lives.

                    Africa will offer another great pool of poor people who will work for next to nothing, so that corporations can increase their profits. As even more americans lose jobs to Africa. it seems some of those communist workers are beginning to want MORE for their labor, the peons, and the MNCs need another big area with loads of poor to exploit so their profits can grow. And the people that invest for a living need some more poor folks so they can get a good return on their stocks.

                    And it will continue on, the elites becoming richer and richer by exploiting the poor. The best way to do that in America is to keep the borders open, so we get those poor in who will work for less, in the jobs corporations cannot export.

                    The 21st century can be seen accurately as a return to a very old way of doing business, with only the elites benefitting when it comes to income. Anytime you move away from that paradigm, it only takes a few decades, with the right people in DC to reverse and embrace what impoverished the common man, historically.

                    The only way to combat it seems to lie in unionizing the entire world. So that the poor have some voice in their own destinies, instead of leaving it up to the better side of human nature as found in the greed of the elites. The bad news is, the elites don't have this better side, and are driven by a greed that can never be satiated.

                    When humanity allows the greed of the few to dictate all things, don't expect the common human to ever do any better than the elites will allow. And until humanity can in great numbers see and understand what is so elementary, this exploitation of the poor in the world has no end in sight.

                    The current American paradigm is grounded in the exploitation of other human beings, and the poor will always be in their gun sights, unless we can gain some intelligence and put an end to it. I have said countless times that this will eventually happen, but it involves an evolution in human intelligence, a light bulb in consciousness coming on, that is no longer affected by the propaganda coming from the right and the left.

                    The rich of the world are nothing more than parasites upon humanity, and the fact that we allow this to go on just shows humanity has quite a way to go in evolving to a much higher intelligence. But it will happen, although no one knows when. For the current paradigm is not sustainable in a modern world, and I honestly believe this to be a fact. But perhaps you need a higher intelligence in order to recognize it, and that currently is the dam holding back real change. Yet that dam will eventually burst, IMO.

                    ?


                    • #55
                      Re: World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

                      Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                      I don't like the idea of one country ruling the world, for they are an empire. And all empires slant toward the evil for they eventually are run by men who are sociopaths, for it takes that sort of behavior in this world for them to get in that position.

                      ...Africa will offer another great pool of poor people who will work for next to nothing, so that corporations can increase their profits. As even more americans lose jobs to Africa. it seems some of those communist workers are beginning to want MORE for their labor, the peons, and the MNCs need another big area with loads of poor to exploit so their profits can grow. And the people that invest for a living need some more poor folks so they can get a good return on their stocks.

                      ...The only way to combat it seems to lie in unionizing the entire world. So that the poor have some voice in their own destinies, instead of leaving it up to the better side of human nature as found in the greed of the elites. The bad news is, the elites don't have this better side, and are driven by a greed that can never be satiated.
                      ...
                      The rich of the world are nothing more than parasites upon humanity, and the fact that we allow this to go on just shows humanity has quite a way to go in evolving to a much higher intelligence.
                      I once believed that NAFTA and similar trade agreements were a huge mistake. A failure of neoliberalism. I once believed as you do, that the wealthy are incapable of cutting a fair deal for their employees, customers or government. The key is reacting properly to the wealthy, not suppressing them.

                      The wealthy will exist for a very long time into the future, because humans want the possibility of wealth to exist. The two experiments to insulate or dilute wealth have failed; communism is the obvious, most recent example. But the other example is the origin of the middle class, and seems to be a history that is either altered or ignored. The history of the guilds, which also describes one origin of labor unions. Here is one link:
                      http://www.oneonta.edu/faculty/farbe...st/guilds.html

                      It is no coincidence that Germany remains conscious of this history, and seems to enjoy the most solid economy in the world. It is also why they enjoy the least corrosive type of wealth envy, if that can be measured. Here is maybe the only measure we have of wealth envy in the US (discussed in article
                      Does America Have a Case of Wealth Envy? - The Wealth Report - WSJ
                      -Maybe because we have never experimented with full-blown socialism, we are unaware of the limits that wealth envy impose on economic solutions.

                      Look for a way to insulate the non-wealthy from the poor decisions made by the wealthy. Attempting to control the wealthy by a tax code which can be changed? The code will be changed in favor of the wealthy. Same goes for trying to control them with regulations that target their income class. If the regulations are subject to change, they will be changed in favor of the wealthy. Money buys favors.

                      There are ways to insulate the working class from the poor decisions of the wealthy. One of them was called a guild system, and it is a concept that can be modified to benefit the working class today. Wealth envy was the principle social tool used by communists, and we know that was a dismal failure. In addition to a modern "union" or guild system (I like to call them neighborhood "collectives"), the vote must be used effectively. Make gov't. officials responsible for proper contracting or agreements between the gov't. and the wealthy: individuals and corporations. Jail time for gov't. officials who fail to honor contracts that protect the environment and promises of employment, will take care of the "money buys favors" issue.

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                      • #56
                        Re: World Economy without the U.S. Dollar

                        Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                        But the other example is the origin of the middle class, and seems to be a history that is either altered or ignored. The history of the guilds, which also describes one origin of labor unions. Here is one link:
                        Medieval Guilds and Craft Production

                        It is no coincidence that Germany remains conscious of this history, and seems to enjoy the most solid economy in the world.

                        It is true that the legacy of the medieval trade and crafts guilds has left a still visible footprint in Germanys economy, yet I would argue not so much in the trade unions ( that are essentially a 19th century creation). And more, on a general note, in two economic cornerstones that are still visible in ordoliberalism : a) non-compromising committement to making quality products (which also implies consequent long-term planning) b) cooperation & common goals. Understanding economics not so much as a gamble, but as a societal project that requires input from ALL sides to offer the best sustainable output for all sides . Even today, stability is ordoliberals primary goal, growth in that economic understanding comes quite naturally if you have your shop in order.
                        The medieval guilds were taking care of each others families in case of death, disease or accident, operating insurance schemes for goods and shops, were in charge of defence for their city quarters (since the medieval cities were under constant threat from the nobility and their mercenary armies) and took part in local governement. They understood at an early stage the importance of solid financial housekeeping, cooperation and collaborative policymaking, not only between masters, apprentices and employees, but also with the forces around them.
                        There is one legacy though that the guilds have left us and that is pretty much across the board credited as one key for Germanys economic resilience, and has thus become an export article as well, currently closely studied by Spain, Britain, and yes, the US : The german apprenticeship system (whose origins are medieval) :


                        Germany's New Export: Jobs Training - WSJ

                        "We've learned it is better to build our own workforce instead of just relying on the market," said Hans-Herbert Jagla, Volkswagen's human resources chief at its one-year-old Chattanooga plant. The German car maker has launched a three-year apprenticeship program to ensure it has skilled workers to maintain and troubleshoot the car maker's high-tech robotics and assembly line systems.

                        Companies and federal and state policy makers have begun taking a closer look at programs at VW, Siemens AG SIE.XE -0.80% and BMW AG BMW.XE -1.94% . All have joined forces with community colleges to train workers in machining, welding and maintaining high-tech gear.

                        In Charleston, S.C., where German auto-parts and engineering firm Robert Bosch GmbH has run an apprenticeship program since the 1970s, aluminum products maker JW Aluminum, aerospace and industrial equipment maker Eaton Corp. ETN -0.27% , engineering company ITT Corp. ITT -0.80% and nearly a dozen other U.S. companies have set up apprenticeship programs in the past few years with Trident Technical College, Bosch's partner.




                        Currently it is mostly german companies operating in the US ( like VW at Chattanooga) trying to set up the workers training systems that they are used to at home. Americans often have philosophical or cultural problems with it. Like schools not wanting to cooperate with companies, companies having trouble to see training your own skilled workers as a long-term investment and not primarily a cost issue (obviously these are jobs that you wont/cant easily relocate ) and unions beeing concerned that partnering too closely with those they are used to treat as adversaries threatens their traditional business model. And then of course there appears to be still a stigma attached to non-academic training in the US, while in Germany it is not uncommon to even have CEOs of multinationals that started off as factory blue-collar apprentices ( Daimler chairman Dieter Zetsche is one).
                        But interest appears to be there :

                        http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/bu...pagewanted=all


                        To help develop his program, Mr. Neese has traveled to Germany, Austria and Switzerland, where apprenticeships are thriving, youth unemployment is relatively low and blue-collar jobs are still prized. That contrasts with the United States, where the economic fortunes of younger people with just a high school diploma have plummeted, and the unemployment rate among workers age 16 to 19 stands at more than 20 percent.

                        This generation has taken a huge hit from the economic crisis, said Alexander Gelber, an economist at the University of California at Berkeley and a former senior Treasury official. Apprenticeships offer people the possibility of building skills when they often dont have many other options.

                        So why have they not caught on in the United States like in Germany, which has 1.8 million apprentices with less than one-third the population?

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