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MI Gov in Hot Water?

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  • MI Gov in Hot Water?

    Didn't see anything posted on this topic yet, but I think it's important. Rick Snyder is accepting some responsibility but also blames the lead poisoning, from Flint MI water supply, on his state Environmental Protection agency.
    Snyder did fault the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality, which repeatedly told Flint residents the water was safe to drink despite reports within the department that some Flint homes showed extremely high lead levels...
    http://time.com/4182474/michigan-gov...-water-crisis/

    Here's the timeline, from the same link:
    Last summer, researchers at Virginia Tech found that the water in some homes contained enough lead to be considered toxic waste. On Jan. 5, months after testing revealed the city’s water supply was unsafe, Snyder declared a state of emergency. ...
    However...
    In a recently-released email from July 2015, Snyder’s former chief of staff, Dennis Muchmore, wrote to a state health department official that he was concerned that Flint residents believed they were getting “blown off” by state officials. Snyder says the email shows that his office was not neglecting the city, and Muchmore was “concerned that we were getting straight answers so he asked tough questions and he got answers.”



    Problem #1 for Snyder: Muchmore and Snyder knew about this problem in July 2015, but Snyder waited until Jan. 5 to declare a state of emergency. Was his state EPA running the show? Did Snyder fall asleep at the wheel, so he lost touch with the issue for several months?

    Problem #2 for Snyder: He appointed an unelected management for Flint well before this scandal. Said manager pushed the decision to get water from the river, rather than the commonly used, less polluted lake.

    Problem #3 for Snyder: Said emergency managers are protected from liability for their decisions. Here's a link to MI state's smooth move to remove liability, even for poisoning people:
    http://www.democracy-tree.com/gov-sn...gers-lawsuits/
    Does this mean Snyder has accepted liability, or is no one liable, or does the federal gov't. come in and impose liability despite state law?



  • #2
    Originally posted by radcentr View Post
    Didn't see anything posted on this topic yet, but I think it's important. Rick Snyder is accepting some responsibility but also blames the lead poisoning, from Flint MI water supply, on his state Environmental Protection agency.
    http://time.com/4182474/michigan-gov...-water-crisis/

    Here's the timeline, from the same link:

    However...[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
    [/FONT][/COLOR]

    Problem #1 for Snyder: Muchmore and Snyder knew about this problem in July 2015, but Snyder waited until Jan. 5 to declare a state of emergency. Was his state EPA running the show? Did Snyder fall asleep at the wheel, so he lost touch with the issue for several months?

    Problem #2 for Snyder: He appointed an unelected management for Flint well before this scandal. Said manager pushed the decision to get water from the river, rather than the commonly used, less polluted lake.

    Problem #3 for Snyder: Said emergency managers are protected from liability for their decisions. Here's a link to MI state's smooth move to remove liability, even for poisoning people:
    http://www.democracy-tree.com/gov-sn...gers-lawsuits/
    Does this mean Snyder has accepted liability, or is no one liable, or does the federal gov't. come in and impose liability despite state law?


    Not quite sure how it is the responsibility of the state in the first place. The city decided to take water from the river instead of the Detroit source to save money because the city fathers had run the city into bankruptcy. They had a huge burden of pension debt that they had negotiated but never funded. The city has been run into the ground by Democrats and now they want to blame a Republican Governor for the problem they wrought upon themselves.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      The river is paart of the state. The state is managing the town because it has been run by incompetents for decades...
      The governor looks like he's stuck with a mess he didn't make but it is most certainly his responsibility to help the people of his state when they are in need and local goverment has failed them.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        It's not fun being stuck between two immovable forces. On one side, you have a tax base decimated because the unions refuse to compete, babbling something about not being about to compete with the 3rd world, and on the other you have a population dependent on infrastructure that they can neither afford to repair or replace. Given the choices already made, there where no good options to choose from.

        Looks to me like they wound up just like the 3rd world country because they wouldn't compete. The only question that remains is whether anyone will actaully learn anything from this.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
          The river is paart of the state. The state is managing the town because it has been run by incompetents for decades...
          The governor looks like he's stuck with a mess he didn't make but it is most certainly his responsibility to help the people of his state when they are in need and local goverment has failed them.
          As much as Snyder is responsible for choosing the emergency manager of Flint, he is fully responsible for the consequences of that manager's decision to pipe water from the Flint River instead of the big lake (yes, that was a much better option) nearby. He is also the leader of the political party which protected (limited liability) said emergency manager from serious consequences (Snyder's problem #3).

          Certainly the Dems screwed up Flint in their own special way, some time ago. What that has to do with how the GOP is corn-holing Flint now, is a mystery. Perhaps C or OMD can elaborate on that point. This is one example of the failure of privatization, not the fix-all that some GOP folks have claimed. Privatization can work, but removing liability is clearly a moral hazard. Pure Karma when it kills off the career of politicians who provide that kind of protection for their "friends".

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Originally posted by radcentr View Post
            Certainly the Dems screwed up Flint in their own special way, some time ago. What that has to do with how the GOP is corn-holing Flint now, is a mystery. Perhaps C or OMD can elaborate on that point. This is one example of the failure of privatization, not the fix-all that some GOP folks have claimed. Privatization can work, but removing liability is clearly a moral hazard. Pure Karma when it kills off the career of politicians who provide that kind of protection for their "friends".
            It seems that its not so much an issue an issue of privatization as it seems to stem from bickering between Flint, who wanted to switch to a new, more affordable source of water, and Detroit, with revenue problems of its own, who demanded the right to keep selling. Detroit cut them off, and this left Flint without water until their new source was ready, so the river was just a stopgap. The river water had a lower ph, and the protective layer on the interior of the pipes broke down, and is now leeching lead. The Governor would later get Flint back on Detroit's water system until the new source comes online later this year, but in the meantime the pipes still lack their intended protective coating, and could be contaminating the water. It's not clear what will fix that, and when.

            So, the most likely suspect is Detroit dickery, but as far as the media is concerned, Detroit is free to whistle nonchalantly in the corner, because there is a Republican governor to lynch.

            But even in Detroit, you have much smaller population, who doesn't have a lot of money, trying to maintain an infrastructure built for a much larger population. One could say that Detroit was just doing what every wounded and cornered animal does. For either city, short of having billions of dollars fall from the sky, and a time machine to move the population to a point in the future when the work is done, there is nothing that any government official, of any level, of either party, can do about this, other than what they are doing, trucking in bottled water. And then you have morons like Micheal Moore telling people to not send bottled water because it will just go in a landfill.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Originally posted by radcentr View Post
              As much as Snyder is responsible for choosing the emergency manager of Flint, he is fully responsible for the consequences of that manager's decision to pipe water from the Flint River instead of the big lake (yes, that was a much better option) nearby. He is also the leader of the political party which protected (limited liability) said emergency manager from serious consequences (Snyder's problem #3).

              Certainly the Dems screwed up Flint in their own special way, some time ago. What that has to do with how the GOP is corn-holing Flint now, is a mystery. Perhaps C or OMD can elaborate on that point. This is one example of the failure of privatization, not the fix-all that some GOP folks have claimed. Privatization can work, but removing liability is clearly a moral hazard. Pure Karma when it kills off the career of politicians who provide that kind of protection for their "friends".
              There has been a rush to too much being handed over to the private sector. It permeates everything from prisons to the military. The move away from the "commons" only leads to more corruption because money is involved, and when money is dangled in from of the private sector, the fraud ramps up, and greed takes over.

              A nation being run by capitalists is not a democratic republic. It's oligarchy. And the GOP has turned much of America over to capitalists who see themselves above morality and common human decency, not to mention seeing themselves as apart from society, and therefore not subject to demanded social responsibility.

              These cities like Detroit and Flint and others in the rust belt is a mirror of what is to come as the globalization virus continues to gut our economy, leaving behind only those that have to stay here, for they are a part of the service sector that cannot be sent to a communist state for slave labor wages. When I look at what open borders free trade globalization has wrought upon the American people, I see the GOP as the instigator of that and the idiocy of the voters who elect people who have no intention of representing the average American. But getting these working americans to see the truth of the GOP and establishment democratic party, is like trying to convert them from Christianity to Islam. That is how deep ideological beliefs run, and how they can literally create a mindset that is suicidal, economically. I think it really is a form of modern insanity. Induced insanity.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                You do know that neither the Detroit Water system, nor the new Karegnondi Water Authority are privatized, right.

                And that the Detroit Water System is corrupt and nearly bankrupt.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Commodore View Post
                  You do know that neither the Detroit Water system, nor the new Karegnondi Water Authority are privatized, right.

                  And that the Detroit Water System is corrupt and nearly bankrupt.

                  As is everything in Detroit. A Democrat stronghold for decades. All managed for the commons.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Public officials are responsible for the public water supply, regardless of party affiliation. That's the general rule across the nation. It will be difficult for us to get all the information, since the MI Gov. office seems to have a gig similar to the emergency management contract. Link:
                    (The Michigan governor's office is shielded from the state's Freedom of Information Act.)

                    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-water-crisis/

                    How convenient. The minutes from the Flint city council might shed more light. What responsibility did they have? If the emergency manager made that decision or not. After it was decided to use Flint River water, who decided to run it thru the plumbing without testing and/or extra treatment. Lots of questions.

                    BTW, when a municipality is bankrupt, a higher level gov't. authority is responsible for essential services. Flint's ability to govern itself was expressly limited by the state -aka, the Governor. There is no dodge on that issue.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by radcentr View Post
                      Public officials are responsible for the public water supply, regardless of party affiliation. That's the general rule across the nation. It will be difficult for us to get all the information, since the MI Gov. office seems to have a gig similar to the emergency management contract. Link:
                      [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
                      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-water-crisis/

                      How convenient. The minutes from the Flint city council might shed more light. What responsibility did they have? If the emergency manager made that decision or not. After it was decided to use Flint River water, who decided to run it thru the plumbing without testing and/or extra treatment. Lots of questions.

                      BTW, when a municipality is bankrupt, a higher level gov't. authority is responsible for essential services. Flint's ability to govern itself was expressly limited by the state -aka, the Governor. There is no dodge on that issue.

                      If the Governor is responsible for the State's water, why is Obama not responsible through the EPA. The EPA claims it governs all water in the country.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                        As is everything in Detroit. A Democrat stronghold for decades. All managed for the commons.
                        Of course, when Detroit was an industrial power house, garbage got picked up on time, and no problem with water. So, do ya think that the deindustrialization of our nation by your boys, the GOP has anything to do with the way Detroit is today?

                        And interesting stat that is related to the GOP selling out the people of this nation can be seen in the rate of disability claims, to SS, as people who there are no jobs for, resort to disability checks, which is nowhere near enough to live on. Guess where those claims are the greatest in number? Well, that would be the towns and cities who lost their manufacturing when the GOP allowed their jobs to be taken by COMMUNISTS.

                        The COMMONS has worked out just fine until you starve it of funding. And if the Commons does not work, then we should elect politicians who are skilled enough so that it does work. But when you are inept, and cannot drive a nail with a hammer, of course you are gonna say, the commons does not work, the gov't does not work, but them who's fault is that? Well, generally the GOPher who is making such claims. They should say, I am incompetent, and should be involved in anything that has to do with the Commons, for I am too stupid to make it work. If our military generals had such an attitude, we would be in deep shit. If Ike would have had such an attitude, we would have been beaten by the Nazis. It seems the ones with the attitude seems to be GOPhers.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                          Of course, when Detroit was an industrial power house, garbage got picked up on time, and no problem with water. So, do ya think that the deindustrialization of our nation by your boys, the GOP has anything to do with the way Detroit is today?

                          And interesting stat that is related to the GOP selling out the people of this nation can be seen in the rate of disability claims, to SS, as people who there are no jobs for, resort to disability checks, which is nowhere near enough to live on. Guess where those claims are the greatest in number? Well, that would be the towns and cities who lost their manufacturing when the GOP allowed their jobs to be taken by COMMUNISTS.

                          The COMMONS has worked out just fine until you starve it of funding. And if the Commons does not work, then we should elect politicians who are skilled enough so that it does work. But when you are inept, and cannot drive a nail with a hammer, of course you are gonna say, the commons does not work, the gov't does not work, but them who's fault is that? Well, generally the GOPher who is making such claims. They should say, I am incompetent, and should be involved in anything that has to do with the Commons, for I am too stupid to make it work. If our military generals had such an attitude, we would be in deep shit. If Ike would have had such an attitude, we would have been beaten by the Nazis. It seems the ones with the attitude seems to be GOPhers.

                          No one works for the common good. People work for their own advancement. It is simply human nature.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                            No one works for the common good. People work for their own advancement. It is simply human nature.

                            What about people who do voluntary work or people who take pay cuts to work in areas like teaching or medicine as they have decided to make a life change for whatever reason.
                            Not everyone is selfish and only picks a job for selfish reasons.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post


                              What about people who do voluntary work or people who take pay cuts to work in areas like teaching or medicine as they have decided to make a life change for whatever reason.
                              Not everyone is selfish and only picks a job for selfish reasons.

                              They do that for their own personal fulfillment. For some, feeling good is more fulfilling than money. They are still working for their own benefit.

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