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Germany to cut carbon emissions by 95 %

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Brexx View Post
    Prominent global warming alarmist James Hansen recently said that to believe that renewables - wind and solar - can replace fossil fuels is comparable to believing in the tooth ferrie and the Easter bunny.
    Hard to believe, but this guy actually said something sensible for a change.
    Perhaps you can provide a link on Hansen's renewables comment. Here's one to get us started:
    I think we will get there because China is rational, Hansen says. Their leaders are mostly trained in engineering and such things, they dont deny climate change and they have a huge incentive, which is air pollution. Its so bad in their cities they need to move to clean energies. They realise its not a hoax. But they will need co-operation.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...is-talks-fraud

    Or will the response follow the same theme: "Liberal is wrong unless I agree with a point that agrees with standard conservative issue."

    Perhaps Hansen meant "clean" as in some new form of nuclear power that has a manageable level and quality of waste. Include hydro electric, but exclude solar and wind?. Or maybe, Hansen meant geo-thermal, solar and wind, with a 10% reliance on petroleum/coal based power plants. IOW, not a total replacement, but close enough, if we also reduce our population.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by radcentr View Post

      Perhaps you can provide a link on Hansen's renewables comment. Here's one to get us started:
      https://www.theguardian.com/environm...is-talks-fraud

      Or will the response follow the same theme: "Liberal is wrong unless I agree with a point that agrees with standard conservative issue."

      Perhaps Hansen meant "clean" as in some new form of nuclear power that has a manageable level and quality of waste. Include hydro electric, but exclude solar and wind?. Or maybe, Hansen meant geo-thermal, solar and wind, with a 10% reliance on petroleum/coal based power plants. IOW, not a total replacement, but close enough, if we also reduce our population.

      Renewable sources [in 2009] provide 10.7% of the electric energy. But almost two-thirds of this is hydroelectric. Wind has grown to almost 17% of the renewable energy, so it is approaching 1.8% of U.S. electricity. Solar power is only 0.2% of the renewable portion or 0.02% of electricity.

      [Globally] in 2008 renewable energies provide 19% of electricity, but most of the renewable energy is hydroelectric. Wind provides 1% of global electricity and solar energy less than 0.1%
      .


      Can renewable energies provide all of societys energy needs in the foreseeable future? It is conceivable in a few places, such as New Zealand and Norway. But suggesting that renewables will let us phase rapidly off fossil fuels in the United States, China, India, or the world as a whole is almost the equivalent of believing in the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy.
      https://www.masterresource.org/hanse...ewable-energy/

      ?


      • #63
        Yes, we will have to wait, rather than "phase rapidly off fossil fuels in the United States". That will disappoint the "all renewables right now" crowd. Everyone else will make do and convert to renewables as they become more competitive, all the same. That might take awhile, as imports of solar panels may be one of the first targets of the new trade war tariffs. Link:
        The petition alleges that, in absolute terms, the quantity and value of imports of [solar] cells and modules have increased over the last five years.

        The value of imports rose from $5.1bn in 2012 to $8.3bn in 2016, an increase of 62.8 per cent.
        http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7763941.html

        Dovetails nicely with a previous post, when I noted that much of the new technology will be bought from foreign-made sources. Supposing the domestic factories decide to go worker owned and non-profit, with labor compensation tied to production and sales, we might be able to compete with China (and certainly compete with Germany). Otherwise, the price point for the US consumer may be too high for US-made systems, unless they can automate a larger portion of production.

        The other part of the equation is life cycle costing. If only the consumer is responsible for all waste cleanup, rather than the much larger number of taxpayers, coal could be priced out of the residential market much faster.

        ?


        • #64
          Originally posted by radcentr View Post
          Yes, we will have to wait, rather than "phase rapidly off fossil fuels in the United States". That will disappoint the "all renewables right now" crowd. Everyone else will make do and convert to renewables as they become more competitive, all the same. That might take awhile, as imports of solar panels may be one of the first targets of the new trade war tariffs. Link:

          http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7763941.html

          Dovetails nicely with a previous post, when I noted that much of the new technology will be bought from foreign-made sources. Supposing the domestic factories decide to go worker owned and non-profit, with labor compensation tied to production and sales, we might be able to compete with China (and certainly compete with Germany). Otherwise, the price point for the US consumer may be too high for US-made systems, unless they can automate a larger portion of production.

          The other part of the equation is life cycle costing. If only the consumer is responsible for all waste cleanup, rather than the much larger number of taxpayers, coal could be priced out of the residential market much faster.
          They are made in China because it is a dirty process that is not allowed in this country. Same thing with a lot of industry. Our EPA chased them to foreign countries where the laws are not so strict.

          ?


          • #65
            Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

            They are made in China because it is a dirty process that is not allowed in this country. Same thing with a lot of industry. Our EPA chased them to foreign countries where the laws are not so strict.
            ...To be more complete, we say it is because China doesn't bother to clean up the mess, and uses the lower cost to build market share worldwide. Link:
            Technologies exist to recycle the chemical byproducts of solar-cell production, but some Chinese polysilicon plants, including Luoyang Zhonggui, are cutting costs and corners by avoiding significant extra investment in pollution control. The cheaper prices of their products, which do not currently factor in environmental costs, are projected to fan the rapid expansion of Chinese-made solar PV systems around the world, especially in industrial countries that can afford the still-expensive units.
            Although China will eventually benefit from this green technology as well as costs decline further, for the time being the industry continues to tread the traditional path of pollute first, clean up afterwards. At stake are the underrepresented groups in Chinese society, especially rural farmers who depend on increasingly polluted lands for a living. Chinas shining solar industry, while enabling blue skies elsewhere, is leaving behind a scarred landscape at home.
            http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5650
            That traditional path of "pollute first, clean up later" sounds familiar. Mining and energy production, up to very recent times in the developed world. Ironic that it is being applied to solar panels in a few countries, but not surprising. Good news is, the pollution can be (and is) prevented by technology in certain countries. Could be prevented in China, as well, once the Chicoms impose environmental regulations. They probably will, once cancer and other morbidity rates go too high. That's what happened with their air pollution standards on coal and other combustion tech.

            ?


            • #66
              Originally posted by radcentr View Post
              ...To be more complete, we say it is because China doesn't bother to clean up the mess, and uses the lower cost to build market share worldwide. Link:
              http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5650
              That traditional path of "pollute first, clean up later" sounds familiar. Mining and energy production, up to very recent times in the developed world. Ironic that it is being applied to solar panels in a few countries, but not surprising. Good news is, the pollution can be (and is) prevented by technology in certain countries. Could be prevented in China, as well, once the Chicoms impose environmental regulations. They probably will, once cancer and other morbidity rates go too high. That's what happened with their air pollution standards on coal and other combustion tech.
              Even tho they are made by cheap labor in a country with no rules, they are still not economical without government subsidies. Why would you expect them to be made here?

              ?


              • #67
                Automation, lack of profits paid to shareholders, due to a private worker and/or customer owned company. Labor compensation that starts low then builds up depending on market share and production. Typical capitalization probably won't work with the current technology, in countries that include clean standards. Once the technology advances to a certain point -and it probably will based on recent history- capitalism might be able to get into the game and compete, including costs for environmental standards. If gov't. (aka, taxpayer) assumes the cost of coal and petroleum waste cleanup, that would the standard to apply to solar panel cleanup. It should not be the standard (customer only, should assume cleanup cost), but if we compare apples to apples....

                ?


                • #68
                  Originally posted by radcentr View Post

                  Perhaps you can provide a link on Hansen's renewables comment. Here's one to get us started:
                  https://www.theguardian.com/environm...is-talks-fraud

                  Or will the response follow the same theme: "Liberal is wrong unless I agree with a point that agrees with standard conservative issue."

                  Perhaps Hansen meant "clean" as in some new form of nuclear power that has a manageable level and quality of waste. Include hydro electric, but exclude solar and wind?. Or maybe, Hansen meant geo-thermal, solar and wind, with a 10% reliance on petroleum/coal based power plants. IOW, not a total replacement, but close enough, if we also reduce our population.
                  Its funny how Hansen and other climate change fanatics like to heap praise on China - the biggest CO2 emitter in the world and still building more coal plants, not only at home but in several other countries. They are happy to sign up for all these big climate change deals like the Paris Accord because they limit developed countries emissions but not theirs.

                  ?


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Brexx View Post

                    Its funny how Hansen and other climate change fanatics like to heap praise on China - the biggest CO2 emitter in the world and still building more coal plants, not only at home but in several other countries. They are happy to sign up for all these big climate change deals like the Paris Accord because they limit developed countries emissions but not theirs.
                    Paris Accord is voluntary, last I heard. A country opens itself to whining and other complaints if it violates the accord, but no sanctions with real teeth. OTOH, imagine when renewables can replace most of the imported carbon energy for X number of nations. Then, they will use the Paris Accord (or whatever new and improved but toothless version is available) to champion their green-ness. Nice propaganda to cover their real objective: A more reliable source of energy because very little depends on importation.

                    All the same, improved management of natural resources will result in the longer run, not to mention a real and positive decrease in wars for energy.

                    ?


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by radcentr View Post

                      Paris Accord is voluntary, last I heard. A country opens itself to whining and other complaints if it violates the accord, but no sanctions with real teeth. OTOH, imagine when renewables can replace most of the imported carbon energy for X number of nations. Then, they will use the Paris Accord (or whatever new and improved but toothless version is available) to champion their green-ness. Nice propaganda to cover their real objective: A more reliable source of energy because very little depends on importation.

                      All the same, improved management of natural resources will result in the longer run, not to mention a real and positive decrease in wars for energy.
                      Maybe you can imagine when renewables will replace other forms of energy but if you can, you can probably imagine when Muslims will live in peace with the rest of the world.

                      ?


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by radcentr View Post

                        Paris Accord is voluntary, last I heard. A country opens itself to whining and other complaints if it violates the accord, but no sanctions with real teeth. OTOH, imagine when renewables can replace most of the imported carbon energy for X number of nations. Then, they will use the Paris Accord (or whatever new and improved but toothless version is available) to champion their green-ness. Nice propaganda to cover their real objective: A more reliable source of energy because very little depends on importation.

                        All the same, improved management of natural resources will result in the longer run, not to mention a real and positive decrease in wars for energy.
                        Even if a few countries could somehow manage to replace most of their fossil fuel use with renewables it wouldn't bring down global co2 emissions when you have the largest countries in the world, plus many other countries, building coal plants as fast as they can.

                        ?


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Brexx View Post

                          Even if a few countries could somehow manage to replace most of their fossil fuel use with renewables it wouldn't bring down global co2 emissions when you have the largest countries in the world, plus many other countries, building coal plants as fast as they can.
                          Building their portion of solar power even faster (China), so they can eventually shut down the coal/nat gas plants. Not so much for green, as I noted, but to depend less on imported energy.

                          ?


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by radcentr View Post

                            Building their portion of solar power even faster (China), so they can eventually shut down the coal/nat gas plants. Not so much for green, as I noted, but to depend less on imported energy.
                            It is simply fantasy that solar power can replace fossil fuels. Pure fantasy.

                            ?


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by radcentr View Post

                              Building their portion of solar power even faster (China), so they can eventually shut down the coal/nat gas plants. Not so much for green, as I noted, but to depend less on imported energy.
                              I'm sure China realizes that no matter how much wind and solar they build they are still going to need a lot of coal and gas plants.

                              ?


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

                                It is simply fantasy that solar power can replace fossil fuels. Pure fantasy.
                                At the level of technology 5 or 10 years ago, that was a true statement. If we add in wind, geothermal, and building design changes, along with current and likely advances within the next 10 years, not so much. If we restrict renewable energy to residential, apart from large scale commercial/industrial use, the fantasy becomes reality.

                                Fossil fuel plants will be around for a long time. In developed nations, they will be on the 10% end that renewables/other occupy now. IOW, the goal of 90% renewable, 10% fossil fuel generation will be the trend by 2030. Who knows? Fossil fuel for electrical generation could be around for at least another 100 years, at least in developing nations that have access to cheap fossil fuels. I'm sure they will be used in remote locations for that long. Antarctica for instance.

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