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For those that despise the EPA...

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  • #31
    Re: For those that despise the EPA...

    Originally posted by goober View Post
    You know the clean air comes with the overreaching. It's like anything, you can't feed the poor without someone lining up who isn't poor. An EPA that didn't have the power to overreach, wouldn't have the power to clean up the environment.
    Another ends justify the means point, you are on a roll.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #32
      Re: For those that despise the EPA...

      Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
      Another ends justify the means point, you are on a roll.
      Another practical solution to a real problem.
      What would you do about air pollution in your fantasy world?
      have Business not pollute because, you know, it's the right thing to do.....

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #33
        Re: For those that despise the EPA...

        Originally posted by goober View Post
        Another practical solution to a real problem.
        What would you do about air pollution in your fantasy world?
        have Business not pollute because, you know, it's the right thing to do.....
        No, I would just keep passing more and more restrictive and oppressive regulations until not a single business in this country could be profitable. All to just justify my existence.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #34
          Re: For those that despise the EPA...

          Originally posted by goober View Post
          Another practical solution to a real problem.
          What would you do about air pollution in your fantasy world?
          have Business not pollute because, you know, it's the right thing to do.....
          No, listen to what you said. Power to overreach, and now you are saying practical solution. The two do not equate.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #35
            Re: For those that despise the EPA...

            Originally posted by goober View Post
            Another practical solution to a real problem.
            What would you do about air pollution in your fantasy world?
            have Business not pollute because, you know, it's the right thing to do.....
            I already answered that. Strong property rights is all you need.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #36
              Re: For those that despise the EPA...

              Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
              No, listen to what you said. Power to overreach, and now you are saying practical solution. The two do not equate.
              The EPA needs power to force people to clean up their acts.
              Now maybe the goal is to give them just enough power to do this, but not enough power to abuse.
              But that is impossible, if they have enough power to get the job done, they have enough power to abuse.
              Most of the agency, hopefully, will focus on the task at hand and get the job done, there will be some who abuse their power.
              That's just reality.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #37
                Re: For those that despise the EPA...

                Originally posted by fishjoel View Post
                I already answered that. Strong property rights is all you need.
                OK, your air is being poisoned, but the pollution is coming a long distance, how do your strong property rights come into play, do you have the resources to identify the polluters, and bring them to court?

                Or say you live on a river and the water smells, you seek to exercise your riparian rights, how do you identify the people to sue?

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #38
                  Re: For those that despise the EPA...

                  Originally posted by goober View Post
                  OK, your air is being poisoned, but the pollution is coming a long distance, how do your strong property rights come into play, do you have the resources to identify the polluters, and bring them to court?

                  Or say you live on a river and the water smells, you seek to exercise your riparian rights, how do you identify the people to sue?
                  It's not hard to test a chemical compound. How did Erin Brockovich get the job done?

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #39
                    Re: For those that despise the EPA...

                    Originally posted by fishjoel View Post
                    Well, you see, pollution has this tendency to spread. So if they pollute the air you breath, the water you drink, or the land you live on then they lose everything in an uber lawsuit. It's not that complicated. It's the government that actually allowed an "acceptable" level of pollution to go on w/o there being consequences.
                    Well, you see, pollution has this tendency to spread. So if they pollute the air you breath, the water you drink, or the land you live on, after the illnesses, investigations, trial, appeals, waiting for a payout or bankruptcy, the air you breath and the water you drink and the land you live on is still polluted, and you've been there the whole time.

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                    • #40
                      Re: For those that despise the EPA...

                      Originally posted by fishjoel View Post
                      It's not hard to test a chemical compound. How did Erin Brockovich get the job done?
                      She had people getting cancer drinking from wells polluted by one company.
                      How about air pollution?
                      Who made your air dirty?
                      Depends on which way the wind is blowing, and the culprits could be hundreds of miles away....

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #41
                        Re: For those that despise the EPA...

                        Originally posted by goober View Post
                        The EPA needs power to force people to clean up their acts.
                        Now maybe the goal is to give them just enough power to do this, but not enough power to abuse.
                        But that is impossible, if they have enough power to get the job done, they have enough power to abuse.
                        Most of the agency, hopefully, will focus on the task at hand and get the job done, there will be some who abuse their power.
                        That's just reality.
                        It is also reality that air quality is at an all time high and pollution is at an all time low. The EPA has had a positive effect and significant progress to a cleaner environment has in fact been made. Furthermore, the vast majority of people are environmentally conscious in their actions, as are the vast majority of companies as well.

                        Isn't it a matter of degree? When will the rate of pollution be 'good enough' (low enough)? When will the environment be clean 'enough'?

                        Or is the end goal a zero emission society? (Impossible IMHO).

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #42
                          Re: For those that despise the EPA...

                          Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
                          It is also reality that air quality is at an all time high and pollution is at an all time low. The EPA has had a positive effect and significant progress to a cleaner environment has in fact been made. Furthermore, the vast majority of people are environmentally conscious in their actions, as are the vast majority of companies as well.

                          Isn't it a matter of degree? When will the rate of pollution be 'good enough' (low enough)? When will the environment be clean 'enough'?

                          Or is the end goal a zero emission society? (Impossible IMHO).
                          And that is exactly where the EPA is going over the edge now. They are imposing higher and higher standards because they can, because they want to justify their existence, and because there are some environuts in this country who will never be happy until we shut down all human activity in the country.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #43
                            Re: For those that despise the EPA...

                            Originally posted by goober View Post
                            The EPA needs power to force people to clean up their acts.
                            Now maybe the goal is to give them just enough power to do this, but not enough power to abuse.
                            But that is impossible, if they have enough power to get the job done, they have enough power to abuse.
                            Most of the agency, hopefully, will focus on the task at hand and get the job done, there will be some who abuse their power.
                            That's just reality.
                            You are giving a great deal of latitude to an organization with a history of abuse. If we have to we can dig up case after case where people, organizations, and businesses have had to spend quite a bit to defend themselves from EPA action (without any oversight) that either ends up as case dropped or as dismissed by a judge. Like the EPA vs. Range Resources Corp under the Safe Water Drinking Act, when it turns out the EPA had no idea who actually contaminated the two water wells in question. But blames Range Resources Corp anyway, trying to force the company to comply with order, only to later drop the whole case admitting they have no evidence. Millions down the toilet on that defense only for the EPA to walk away, no apologies for it. We can then bring up many EPA initiatives and actions with questionable environmental improvement merit yet potentially costing plenty of jobs, plenty of business cost, and potentially overall economic loss. Like farmland dust regulation efforts as an example. Because that industry, or the consumers they pass the cost onto, can absorb more costs for questionable benefit. Odds are it would just ship overseas even more of our economy where the EPA cannot reach.

                            The EPA as they exist today is out of control and has outlived it's usefulness. No matter how you cut it (and no matter how well the ends justify the means position is crafted) there is no reason to advocate for overreaching government as a practical solution. We need to get back to environmental efforts coming from proper legislation efforts and enforcement under law, debate new law where it should be debated with consideration for what is best for the country. Not rely on some rouge agency with very little oversight, operating on their own initiative with way too much power, and filled to the brim with an agenda leading to case after case of abuse of power. That is the reality of what we face today with the EPA as is.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #44
                              Re: For those that despise the EPA...

                              Originally posted by goober View Post
                              The EPA needs power to force people to clean up their acts.
                              Now maybe the goal is to give them just enough power to do this, but not enough power to abuse.
                              But that is impossible, if they have enough power to get the job done, they have enough power to abuse.
                              Most of the agency, hopefully, will focus on the task at hand and get the job done, there will be some who abuse their power.
                              That's just reality.

                              Careful Goob. A dose of reality will make the con head explode! These guys believe in appealing to the better side of human nature to solve all problems...except, some people don't have a better side! And that is the problem. Let the natural course have its way. Except the natural course has created every problem in this old world. And solved little.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?


                              • #45
                                Re: For those that despise the EPA...

                                Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                                And that is exactly where the EPA is going over the edge now. They are imposing higher and higher standards because they can, because they want to justify their existence, and because there are some environuts in this country who will never be happy until we shut down all human activity in the country.
                                Well, I cannot argue with that really. Congress should handle this sort of affair, and they will be doing their appointed duties by doing so. At least congress is responsible to the people while these agencies are not. And that presents a problem in a republic where we elect or don't elect folks that make policy that affects us.

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