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One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

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  • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

    Originally posted by kramer View Post
    Yes. Today, if we get a hurricane, a huge tornado, a drought, or a heatwave, its climate change. But in the past 6,000 or so years, when bigger droughts, heatwaves, or hurricanes happened, its weather.

    Have I got it right?...
    Not even close.

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    • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

      Originally posted by kramer View Post
      Do you know what mistake you are making? Its assuming that the CO2 changes in the graphs you posted occurred before the temperature changes. They didn't. What the ice cores show us is that temperature changed hundreds of years before the CO2.

      That said, you can bet dollars to doughnuts that scientists are working to change this so that CO2 changed first, whether its true or not.
      You still don't know how feedback works, do you? Is it so hard to understand the CO2 can both lead and lag temperature?

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      • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

        Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
        Can you conceive that it is also true that the data shows a strong correlation between temperature and CO2? I mean, can you recognize the possibility that it is temperature that drives CO2 levels, pursuant to Henrys Law? AGW is in violation of Henrys laws. Do you recognize that a scientific law, like Henrys Law, supersedes hypotheses, including a highly politically drive one like man-made global warming?
        I don't think you understand Henry's Law.

        "At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas that dissolves in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid."

        Do you think adding 15 Gigatons of CO2 to the atmosphere every year just might increase the partial pressure?

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        • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

          Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
          You still don't know how feedback works, do you? Is it so hard to understand the CO2 can both lead and lag temperature?
          In the ice core data, the temperature changes hundreds of years before the CO2 changed and this is the point I was making to the other poster. He or she needs to be made aware of this fact so that he or she can stop incorrectly referring to ice core data as evidence of CO2 warming:
          Changes in temperature precede changes in CO2, with a lag of around 800 years.

          Global Warming FAQ - temperature and carbon dioxide (CO2) from the Vostock ice core

          Assuming that the temperature did change first as the link above states, I understand that as temperature rises, the oceans will outgas CO2 and this will add to the warming. This is an example of the feedback you are referring to. Am I right so far?

          Now looking at the ice core graphs from the link above, they show a swing of CO2 from roughly 200 ppm to 300 ppm. The temperature in those graphs changes from -8C to about 4C.

          Here is where I need your help Cleisthenes.
          The general CO2 formula of DeltaF = 5.35*ln(C/Co) in Watts/meter^2
          Radiative forcing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

          Does the F in "delta F" mean Fahrenheit? Is this correct, I believe you once stated that this formula is for Kelvin. If so, is the F in delta F wrong and should it be Delta K?

          Anyway, if you plug in the C and Co from the ice core data above, you get...
          Delta F = 5.35*ln(300/200) = 2.16924 degrees.

          In other words, the outgassing added 2.17 degrees F of warming which is 1.2C (if I converted from F to C correctly). According to those ice core graphs, the temperature changed by 12C. That means the bulk of the warming (almost 11C) wasn't from CO2.

          So Cleisthenes, if I've used the above formula wrong or the units are wrong or both (or more), feel free to correct me and show me how to correctly use it.

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          • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

            Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
            You still don't know how feedback works, do you? Is it so hard to understand the CO2 can both lead and lag temperature?
            Say who? Not according to Henrys Law

            Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
            "At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas that dissolves in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid."
            The law means temperature changes BEFORE the amount of gas changes. From Henry's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

            Because solubility of permanent gases usually decreases with increasing temperature at around the room temperature, the partial pressure a given gas concentration has in liquid must increase.

            Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
            Do you think adding 15 Gigatons of CO2 to the atmosphere every year just might increase the partial pressure?
            No, especially given your trick question. The cause and effect is the same; temperature change before gas change.

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            • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

              Originally posted by kramer View Post
              In the ice core data, the temperature changes hundreds of years before the CO2 changed and this is the point I was making to the other poster. He or she needs to be made aware of this fact so that he or she can stop incorrectly referring to ice core data as evidence of CO2 warming:
              We know that changing temperature affect atmospheric CO2 and that changing CO2 affects temperature. What the ice core data shows us is just how closely correlatioed these two variables have been over the last half a millions years.

              Assuming that the temperature did change first as the link above states, I understand that as temperature rises, the oceans will outgas CO2 and this will add to the warming. This is an example of the feedback you are referring to. Am I right so far?
              Correct, that is called positive feedback because it acts to increase the original change.

              Now looking at the ice core graphs from the link above, they show a swing of CO2 from roughly 200 ppm to 300 ppm. The temperature in those graphs changes from -8C to about 4C.

              Here is where I need your help Cleisthenes.
              The general CO2 formula of DeltaF = 5.35*ln(C/Co) in Watts/meter^2
              Radiative forcing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              Does the F in "delta F" mean Fahrenheit? Is this correct, I believe you once stated that this formula is for Kelvin. If so, is the F in delta F wrong and should it be Delta K?

              Anyway, if you plug in the C and Co from the ice core data above, you get...
              Delta F = 5.35*ln(300/200) = 2.16924 degrees.

              In other words, the outgassing added 2.17 degrees F of warming which is 1.2C (if I converted from F to C correctly). According to those ice core graphs, the temperature changed by 12C. That means the bulk of the warming (almost 11C) wasn't from CO2.

              So Cleisthenes, if I've used the above formula wrong or the units are wrong or both (or more), feel free to correct me and show me how to correctly use it.
              The ΔF is not change in temperature in degrees Fahrenheit, it is adiative forcing in Watts/m^2. To get the temperature change, you need to multiply this by λ, the climate sensitivity in K/(W/m2). For a better explanation on how to calculate the temperature change for a given increase in CO2, I suggest you read the following site.

              Cold Facts on Global Warming

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              • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

                Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
                Say who? Not according to Henrys Law
                Henry's Las applies to gas in a liquid solution. In case you didn't notice, Earth's atmosphere is not a liquid.

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                • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

                  Just a few more scientists saying AGW is not an issue.

                  Sixteen Concerned Scientists: No Need to Panic About Global Warming - WSJ.com

                  Perhaps the most inconvenient fact is the lack of global warming for well over 10 years now. This is known to the warming establishment, as one can see from the 2009 "Climategate" email of climate scientist Kevin Trenberth: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." But the warming is only missing if one believes computer models where so-called feedbacks involving water vapor and clouds greatly amplify the small effect of CO2.
                  LACK OF WARMING for over a decade.

                  Although the number of publicly dissenting scientists is growing, many young scientists furtively say that while they also have serious doubts about the global-warming message, they are afraid to speak up for fear of not being promoted—or worse. They have good reason to worry. In 2003, Dr. Chris de Freitas, the editor of the journal Climate Research, dared to publish a peer-reviewed article with the politically incorrect (but factually correct) conclusion that the recent warming is not unusual in the context of climate changes over the past thousand years. The international warming establishment quickly mounted a determined campaign to have Dr. de Freitas removed from his editorial job and fired from his university position. Fortunately, Dr. de Freitas was able to keep his university job.
                  Dissent and you will be removed. If Scientist and Politicians really cared about the environment and truth they would not prosecute the nay sayers.

                  Every candidate should support rational measures to protect and improve our environment, but it makes no sense at all to back expensive programs that divert resources from real needs and are based on alarming but untenable claims of "incontrovertible" evidence.
                  Common sense.

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                  • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

                    I wonder what Cleisthenes will say about why the intimidation of scientists who oppose AGW if proponents are so confident in the truth of it?

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

                      The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration recently released its “State of the Climate in 2012” report, which states that “worldwide, 2012 was among the 10 warmest years on record.”

                      But the report “fails to mention [2012] was one of the coolest of the decade, and thus confirms the cooling trend,” according to an analysis by climate blogger Pierre Gosselin.
                      What Global Warming? 2012 Data Confirms Earth In Cooling Trend | CNS News

                      Just proves they can make statistics say anything they want them to say.

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                      • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

                        Climate scientist presents powerful data

                        Climate scientist John Christy presented a series of charts and data at a recent scientific conference showing global warming is proceeding at a modest pace and is not causing significant harm.

                        Christy, a climate scientist at the University of Alabama at Huntsville who oversees NASA’s satellite instruments precisely measuring global temperatures, presented objective records debunking many of the most frequently asserted global warming claims. Christy also made his charts, data, and accompanying explanations available to the public. Links to the charts, data, and accompanying explanations are in the sidebar to this story.
                        Climate scientist presents powerful data

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                        • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

                          What is all this fraudulent talk of warming?

                          What Global Warming? 2012 Data Confirms Earth In Cooling Trend | CNS News

                          OFA Gets Zero Attendance for Climate Change Rally | Washington Free Beacon

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                          • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

                            Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
                            I wonder what Cleisthenes will say about why the intimidation of scientists who oppose AGW if proponents are so confident in the truth of it?
                            What I'll say is that the three posts immediately following yours totally refute your premise.

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                            • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

                              Originally posted by Cleisthenes View Post
                              What I'll say is that the three posts immediately following yours totally refute your premise.
                              Sorry they DO NOT refute that some scientists have been persecuted for their position of anti-AGW. They only show that some are willing to speak out despite possible backlash.

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                              • Re: One... More... Time... No Global Warming!

                                Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
                                Sorry they DO NOT refute that some scientists have been persecuted for their position of anti-AGW. They only show that some are willing to speak out despite possible backlash.
                                Name one. And try not to confuse criticism with persecution.

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