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The left hides its Marxist ideology behind rhetoric and rationale

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  • #16
    Re: The left hides its Marxist ideology behind rhetoric and rationale

    Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post
    That's the truth.

    Wasted 5 years and over $20,000.oo getting a degree in chemistry. So I could ..... wonder why chemists aren't needed I guess.


    Maybe I'll work at Wal-Mart

    College - what a waste of time and $$. Work and build your resume instead.
    Everyone does realize that colleges ARE businesses right? They SELL you courses whether or not there is a need for them when you graduate. Their product is NOT a job at the end of the degree but that classes and degree themselves. Might was well blame car makers for speeding and gun makers for murder.... oops.

    Go sue your school if you can't get a job they promised it to you didn't they?

    ?


    • #17
      Re: The left hides its Marxist ideology behind rhetoric and rationale

      Let's go at this another way:

      Does anyone here disagree with the proposition that power is often a corruptive influence?

      And does anyone here disagree that with wealth comes power?

      ?


      • #18
        Re: The left hides its Marxist ideology behind rhetoric and rationale

        Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post
        --------------------------------------------


        Consider President Obama's recently unveiled 2012 election slogan, "Forward!," which has a clear consonance with socialist ideologies of the interwar era.

        So just using the word "forward" is now indicative of rampant socialism. Someone remind me to call my boss a socialist the next time she says "are you ready to move forward with that project?" God forbid I tell someone that was well prepared that they are a forward thinker. If I did, I'd be just like one of those people that labels everything as socialism.

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        • #19
          Re: The left hides its Marxist ideology behind rhetoric and rationale

          Originally posted by Unique POV View Post
          So just using the word "forward" is now indicative of rampant socialism. Someone remind me to call my boss a socialist the next time she says "are you ready to move forward with that project?" God forbid I tell someone that was well prepared that they are a forward thinker. If I did, I'd be just like one of those people that labels everything as socialism.
          And now that you mention it...

          My iPhone has "Call Forward!"

          My TiVo has "Fast Forward!"

          My television is showing Kevin Spacey's "Pay It Forward!"

          Aaaaaaaaaah! I'm surrounded by socialist electronics! Help meeeeeeeeee!

          ?


          • #20
            Fallacy: Guilt By Association

            Guilt by Association is a fallacy in which a person rejects a claim simply because it is pointed out that people she dislikes accept the claim. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

            It is pointed out that people person A does not like accept claim P.
            Therefore P is false
            It is clear that sort of "reasoning" is fallacious. For example the following is obviously a case of poor "reasoning": "You think that 1+1=2. But, Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Joseph Stalin, and Ted Bundy all believed that 1+1=2. So, you shouldn't believe it."

            The fallacy draws its power from the fact that people do not like to be associated with people they dislike.
            Fallacy: Guilt By Association

            -----------

            A political thinker should be read for insight, rather than doctrine. One should not expect to find in politics a theory that explains nearly everything worth knowing, the way the theory of relativity does in physics, or the way the theory of evolution does in biology.

            Karl Marx had valid insights. He made mistakes. His philosophy inspired totalitarian governments during the twentieth century. Before we condemn him too vigorously for the third effect of his writing, we should note that Christianity inspired persecution of the Jews for about a thousand years, as well as the inquisitions of Spain and Italy. This happened despite the fact that nothing in the New Testament advocated persecution on behalf of the new faith, or even suggests that force is an acceptable means of gaining and preserving conversions.

            Marx argued that unregulated capitalism has two tendencies. First, the overall amount of wealth increases even as the average standard of living declines. Second, capitalism is doomed to experience increasingly destructive economic downturns. These tendencies, especially the second, did happen after he wrote The Communist Manifesto in 1848.

            One can argue that The Communist Manifesto inspired the Great Depression. The economic policies of John Maynard Keynes countered the effects Marx described, lessened the severity of recessions, and assured a broadly based economic expansion from the New Deal to at least the recession of 1974. Since the deregulation that began with the presidency of Ronald Reagan in 1981 these effects have once again become apparent.

            ?


            • #21
              Re: Fallacy: Guilt By Association

              Originally posted by Mandala View Post
              Guilt by Association is a fallacy in which a person rejects a claim simply because it is pointed out that people she dislikes accept the claim. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

              It is pointed out that people person A does not like accept claim P.
              Therefore P is false
              It is clear that sort of "reasoning" is fallacious. For example the following is obviously a case of poor "reasoning": "You think that 1+1=2. But, Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Joseph Stalin, and Ted Bundy all believed that 1+1=2. So, you shouldn't believe it."

              The fallacy draws its power from the fact that people do not like to be associated with people they dislike.
              Fallacy: Guilt By Association

              -----------

              A political thinker should be read for insight, rather than doctrine. One should not expect to find in politics a theory that explains nearly everything worth knowing, the way the theory of relativity does in physics, or the way the theory of evolution does in biology.

              Karl Marx had valid insights. He made mistakes. His philosophy inspired totalitarian governments during the twentieth century. Before we condemn him too vigorously for the third effect of his writing, we should note that Christianity inspired persecution of the Jews for about a thousand years, as well as the inquisitions of Spain and Italy. This happened despite the fact that nothing in the New Testament advocated persecution on behalf of the new faith, or even suggests that force is an acceptable means of gaining and preserving conversions.

              Marx argued that unregulated capitalism has two tendencies. First, the overall amount of wealth increases even as the average standard of living declines. Second, capitalism is doomed to experience increasingly destructive economic downturns. These tendencies, especially the second, did happen after he wrote The Communist Manifesto in 1848.

              One can argue that The Communist Manifesto inspired the Great Depression. The economic policies of John Maynard Keynes countered the effects Marx described, lessened the severity of recessions, and assured a broadly based economic expansion from the New Deal to at least the recession of 1974. Since the deregulation that began with the presidency of Ronald Reagan in 1981 these effects have once again become apparent.
              Keynes did in fact affect those tendencies noted by Marx of capitalism. And it worked up until the monkey wrench were thrown into the economic gears. That wrench took the form of the tripling of energy costs, that came with the embargo on oil. The industrial economy of the US was hurt badly by this. We got stagflation which Keynsian economics was ineffective against. This created a crack that the republicans used to get us on supply side economics and deregulation, and we have seen where that has led.

              So today we see that what Marx wrote of came to fruition. We are once again in a great depression if you look at the real jobless rate, long termed of 14 per cent. The effect of the deregulation of the banking sector.

              ?


              • #22
                Re: Fallacy: Guilt By Association

                Originally posted by Mandala View Post
                One can argue that The Communist Manifesto inspired the Great Depression.
                I intended to write, "One can argue that The Communist Manifesto predicted the Great Depression.

                ?


                • #23
                  Re: Fallacy: Guilt By Association

                  Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                  Keynes did in fact affect those tendencies noted by Marx of capitalism. And it worked up until the monkey wrench were thrown into the economic gears. That wrench took the form of the tripling of energy costs, that came with the embargo on oil. The industrial economy of the US was hurt badly by this. We got stagflation which Keynsian economics was ineffective against. This created a crack that the republicans used to get us on supply side economics and deregulation, and we have seen where that has led.

                  So today we see that what Marx wrote of came to fruition. We are once again in a great depression if you look at the real jobless rate, long termed of 14 per cent. The effect of the deregulation of the banking sector.
                  As you say, the stagflation of the 1970s happened because of the increases in the price of petroleum that followed the OPEC Oil Boycott of 1973 and the Iranian Revolution of 1979.

                  InflationData: Historical Oil Prices Table

                  Republicans do not want to admit this, because they do not want to admit that foreigners they dislike have considerable control over the economy, and they do not want to admit that America's dependence on automobile transportation is a national problem.

                  Republicans would rather blame Keynesian economic because they never liked those policies.

                  ?


                  • #24
                    Re: Fallacy: Guilt By Association

                    Originally posted by Mandala View Post
                    Marx argued that unregulated capitalism has two tendencies. First, the overall amount of wealth increases even as the average standard of living declines. Second, capitalism is doomed to experience increasingly destructive economic downturns. These tendencies, especially the second, did happen after he wrote The Communist Manifesto in 1848.

                    Well, der average standard of living massively increased after the industzrial revolution. Marx prediction failed, but it was more or less a result of another theory. He thought that markets tend to monopolies and thus to a concentration of capital in the hands of a few. Ironically Marx correctly describes the misery of communism, where state-owned Monopolies existed alongside with a declining standard of living.

                    And i would also deny your interpretation about the econiomic crisis after 1848. This crisis was more about overpopulation.The British population for example more than tripled during the Industrial Revolution. Thus combined with crop failures lead to a crisis.

                    ?


                    • #25
                      Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself: FDRs First Inaugural Address

                      Originally posted by Eisbrecher View Post
                      Well, der average standard of living massively increased after the industzrial revolution. Marx prediction failed, but it was more or less a result of another theory. He thought that markets tend to monopolies and thus to a concentration of capital in the hands of a few. Ironically Marx correctly describes the misery of communism, where state-owned Monopolies existed alongside with a declining standard of living.

                      And i would also deny your interpretation about the econiomic crisis after 1848. This crisis was more about overpopulation.The British population for example more than tripled during the Industrial Revolution. Thus combined with crop failures lead to a crisis.
                      our distress comes from no failure of substance. We are stricken by no plague of locusts. Compared with the perils which our forefathers conquered because they believed and were not afraid, we have still much to be thankful for. Nature still offers her bounty and human efforts have multiplied it. Plenty is at our doorstep, but a generous use of it languishes in the very sight of the supply. Primarily this is because the rulers of the exchange of mankinds goods have failed, through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men.
                      "Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself": FDR's First Inaugural Address

                      ?


                      • #26
                        Re: The left hides its Marxist ideology behind rhetoric and rationalevi

                        The fallacy of this debate is that most of the individuals that argue against Marxist ideas have no clue of those ideas. Their prejudices are based mostly on the rhetoric and the iconagraphy of individualism, religion and patriotism. All reinforced by the bombardment of the for-profit mass media were the individual has been commodified. The most personal tragidies have become commodities. Anything from a gum infection to cancer to injuries sustained in an accident have been subjected to the market system of commodification and a source of profit. Misery and suffering have been turned into commodities.

                        Most have not taken the time nor given the effort to read what Marxist ideals actually are. The anti-Marxist rhetoric comes from conclusions and assumptions based a lifetime of Cold War indoctrination in capitalist ideology and the successful association of the extreme right capitalist mentality of Marxist perversions that were the Soviet Union Red China and others. Classical Marxism recognizes that Socialism can not be achieved without the very crucial phases of democracy, capitalism and industrialization. Socialism cannot be achieved overnight as th the Soviet and Chinese models tried to do. These 2 models attempted to circumvent these steps by going from a rural agrarian society without democracy and capitalism straight to industrialization. It did not work, as Marx would have predicted. In this respect we can say that we are well on our way to socialism and there is nothing to be done to prevent this progress other than the unraveling of the entire fabric of American society and its institutions. Socialization may be accomplished, it seems, in a non-violent way as to completetely legitimize it to the point of irrevocability.

                        So the divisions in American political discourse of the extreme left or the extreme right are fallacious. There is "The Third Way" that combines the best ideas of the right and the left.
                        Last edited by Ricardo Valdi; 08-05-2012, 08:50 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: The left hides its Marxist ideology behind rhetoric and rationale

                          Originally posted by goober View Post
                          Yeah, the left acts all rational, and they use science and economics to justify their positions, they completely ignore the teachings of Jesus with regards to tax policy, Jesus was all about tax cuts for the wealthy.....
                          Blessed are the rich, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

                          Blessed are the producers, for they shall inherit the earth.

                          But woe unto you that are poor. You are not the elect of God.

                          It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a poor man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

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