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Moderate Muslims

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  • #31
    Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
    That's not what I meant and you know it.
    Only to a republican audience would I have to argue with people about not tarring every Muslim with the taint of extremism so fine you think whatever you like but you're wrong and you obviously have no intention of having a real debate about this.
    My point is, those who follow Mohammad will kill all those who refuse to. That is what he taught and that is what the Koran demands.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #32
      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
      My point is, those who follow Mohammad will kill all those who refuse to. That is what he taught and that is what the Koran demands.

      If that were true there would be millions of Muslims in the UK and US going about killing people but there aren't so you're wrong.
      Here's a thought how about the next time you meet a Muslim how about you have a nice chat with them and tell them about why they aren't actually Muslims because they aren't out killing people as the religion demands and see how that goes. Maybe you could show them they they are in fact just part of a club that pretends to be Muslims but in fact are nothing of the sort.

      I'd love you to film it with a phone so we can see just how thankful they are that you showed them the error of their ways as proof.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #33
        Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post


        If that were true there would be millions of Muslims in the UK and US going about killing people but there aren't so you're wrong.
        Here's a thought how about the next time you meet a Muslim how about you have a nice chat with them and tell them about why they aren't actually Muslims because they aren't out killing people as the religion demands and see how that goes. Maybe you could show them they they are in fact just part of a club that pretends to be Muslims but in fact are nothing of the sort.

        I'd love you to film it with a phone so we can see just how thankful they are that you showed them the error of their ways as proof.

        Have you ever read the Koran?

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #34
          I see you completely ignored my post so I'm going to ignore yours.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #35
            Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
            I see you completely ignored my post so I'm going to ignore yours.

            My question was actually a response to yours. You allege there are millions of Muslims who do not want to convert the world to their religion. I am saying that is not possible because their scriptures require believers to do exactly that. Either they are non-believers in their scriptures or they believe you should be killed if you do not convert. If you read their stated beliefs in the Koran, you will see that truth.

            There are millions of people who claim to be Christians today who do not adhere to the tenants of the Bible. They are not killing anyone either but at least their scriptures don't require them to do that to do that to prove their beliefs. True Islam is a violent religion and I believe it is evil.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #36
              The problem is there are millions of Muslims in the US and UK who don't want to kill people for simply not being Muslim.
              Calling the entire Islamic faith evil is precisely why I have such a huge problem with you as I honestly don't think you realise just how insulting you are.

              I think I managed a month with you off ignore but back on ignore you go.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #37
                Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                The problem is there are millions of Muslims in the US and UK who don't want to kill people for simply not being Muslim.
                Calling the entire Islamic faith evil is precisely why I have such a huge problem with you as I honestly don't think you realise just how insulting you are.

                I think I managed a month with you off ignore but back on ignore you go.

                Then they do not actually believe what their scriptures dictate and therefore are not really Muslims. And you putting me on ignore only proves that your emotions have again gotten the best of you.
                Last edited by OldmanDan; 03-02-2015, 06:20 AM.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #38
                  Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

                  My question was actually a response to yours. You allege there are millions of Muslims who do not want to convert the world to their religion. I am saying that is not possible because their scriptures require believers to do exactly that. Either they are non-believers in their scriptures or they believe you should be killed if you do not convert. If you read their stated beliefs in the Koran, you will see that truth.

                  There are millions of people who claim to be Christians today who do not adhere to the tenants of the Bible. They are not killing anyone either but at least their scriptures don't require them to do that to do that to prove their beliefs. True Islam is a violent religion and I believe it is evil.
                  Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                  The problem is there are millions of Muslims in the US and UK who don't want to kill people for simply not being Muslim.
                  Calling the entire Islamic faith evil is precisely why I have such a huge problem with you as I honestly don't think you realise just how insulting you are.

                  I think I managed a month with you off ignore but back on ignore you go.
                  Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

                  Then they do not actually believe what their scriptures dictate and therefore are not really Muslims. And you putting me on ignore only proves that your emotions have again gotten the best of you.
                  What's more insulting?

                  Reading the Koran and observing that it does mandate that true believer Muslims are being called to commit murderous acts and to spread and impose their religion across the world?
                  Or to actually go and commit those murderous acts?
                  Or Ignoring these parts of the Koran and making believe they don't exist, because it's politically incorrect and politically unpopular?

                  The fact is that these passages are in fact in the Koran, although many Muslims don't adhere to those parts of the Koran, but that doesn't mean that anyone who turns to the more fundamentalist parts of the Islamic religion isn't going to take those passages literally, and then act as these passages command.

                  Where do you really think, Peter, all the radicalized Muslims in the UK and other Western democracies are actually coming from?

                  Sticking you head in the sand and ignoring it, isn't dealing with the issue or the problem, now is it?

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                    Then they do not actually believe what their scriptures dictate and therefore are not really Muslims. And you putting me on ignore only proves that your emotions have again gotten the best of you.
                    Are Jews who do not follow all of the Law, not Jews? Of course they are still Jews. But Judaism had to come up with a manner of NOT obeying ancient laws, that would not allow them to fit into the modern world. And they have logical ways of doing just that. Islam can do the same thing, but there has to be a mainstream movement in Islam, to pull it off, even as they totally reject and refuse to put up with the conservative view of the Koran. And so far, only a few in the West have done this, perhaps because they don't want to lose their heads in their home nations, for apostasy, or heresy.

                    Islam will of course have to evolve, as Judaism and Christianity did. But they are not even close to doing that, although a few of them are wanting this to happen. But when most muslims, would choose sharia, which is basically a theocracy, it doesn't seem evolving to fit in with a civilized secular world isn't even close to happening. Obviously the very nature of Islam makes it extremely difficult to evolve, and this is what is making it the world's most dangerous religion.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                      My question was actually a response to yours. You allege there are millions of Muslims who do not want to convert the world to their religion. I am saying that is not possible because their scriptures require believers to do exactly that. Either they are non-believers in their scriptures or they believe you should be killed if you do not convert. If you read their stated beliefs in the Koran, you will see that truth.

                      There are millions of people who claim to be Christians today who do not adhere to the tenants of the Bible. They are not killing anyone either but at least their scriptures don't require them to do that to do that to prove their beliefs. True Islam is a violent religion and I believe it is evil.
                      Not completely true. If they conquer Christians and Jews, as long as they submit, they can pay a special tax and live out a life as a 2nd class citizen.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                        The problem is there are millions of Muslims in the US and UK who don't want to kill people for simply not being Muslim.
                        Calling the entire Islamic faith evil is precisely why I have such a huge problem with you as I honestly don't think you realise just how insulting you are.

                        I think I managed a month with you off ignore but back on ignore you go.
                        I'm not saying this is an analogy that I support, it's only an analogy meant to demonstrate the illogical aspect of your statement.

                        You're basically saying, "There were a bunch of Nazis that didn't want to put people in concentration camps just for being Jews. Calling all the Nazis evil is precisely why I have such a huge problem with you..."

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #42
                          More "moderate" behavior from our not minority "moderate" Muslim nation of Saudi Arabia.

                          http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/03...alty/?ncid=AOL

                          The Saudi Arabian blogger sentenced to 1,000 lashes and 10 years in prison for criticizing Islam may now face the death penalty. Raif Badawi, 31, has been in a Saudi prison since last May after criticizing Saudi Arabia's powerful clerics on his liberal blog. His case has received international attention after he was flogged in a public square 50 times and scheduled to receive 50 lashes each week for 20 weeks.
                          Apparently, it wasn't good enough to sentence him to 10 years and a thousand lashes for being critical of Islam.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                            The problem is there are millions of Muslims in the US and UK who don't want to kill people for simply not being Muslim.
                            Calling the entire Islamic faith evil is precisely why I have such a huge problem with you as I honestly don't think you realise just how insulting you are.

                            I think I managed a month with you off ignore but back on ignore you go.
                            I don't think anyone is actually saying that "every single" Muslim ever is like this. I think some are saying that this ain't no small minority or that the Koran is not filled with moderate teachings.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                              I see you completely ignored my post so I'm going to ignore yours.
                              You both have good points though.

                              Their holy book says things pretty clearly in certain passages.

                              But not every Muslim is out to kill or convert all infidels.

                              The religion is going through a sort of reformation as we watch. I think.

                              The fundamentalists - they will either succeed - unlikely, because that means worldwide submission to a world wide Islamic caliphate - or, they will be killed off, OR change their ways.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                                As the OP states, there are certain "Muslims" who are just citizens from the MidEast and who are really just atheists or like our Sunday Morning Christians. Those who are true Muslims who actually believe in the Koran, have to be considered violent because Islam is violent.
                                Intolerance towards nonbelievers is something all religions have in common and fundamentalists can always find in any holy book justification for violence and terror. Think about the 10 commandments and rule to have no other god, which can easily exploited by a fanatic mind.

                                I don`t think that the current problems with Islam can solely explained by the Koran. At least every holy book can be interpreted in different ways, which leads to the question, why christianity and islam take different roads.

                                My thesis is, that christianity had the luck to flourish in an environment which was beneficial for liberty and religious independance from the state. Beginning with the fall of Rome and the rising influence of the Papacy.
                                Religion gained its independance from the state, while the Papacy and its institutions lay the ground for the resurgence of the roman law. The competitive political landscape of europe forced the papacy also to accommodations and realpolitik and even lay the grounds for the reformation.

                                North-africa, the middle east and central asia were densly populated and from a geopolitical viewpoint not very suited for a competitive evironment of different nationstates. It was a hostile environment for liberty and more suited for theocratic states.

                                Undoubtly connected with these historic developements is also the existence of autoritan states in the islamic regions, which often aligned themselves with religious conservatives against democrats.
                                But radical Islam is in these regions a double-edged sword, which can also be a form of Protest against the ruling class. In some sense radical islam succeeds the panarabian nationalism after Nassers dead and also the radical socialism after the fall of the Soviet-Union. And i guess that the terror of the current islamic groups were also influenced by the violence which was held in the name of panarabian nationalism and radical socialism in the 70ies and 80ies.

                                מה מכילות החדשות?

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