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The War On Christianity

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

    The coolest, at the same time most useless, part of your bible is how it changes with your moods.

    What today is Ok is bad tomorrow. What's bad tomorrow is great next week. What's great the week after, is pure evil next month and on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on & on........................... Nothing really means anything. Which is very cool. . . . when you're high on magic mushrooms
    Back in the early 1980's when I became a Unitarian our church was working on a project called the Loose leaf Bible.It was a personal search for things that had meaning and to discard things that areno longer operative.I understand this would be an impossible task at the lower stages of moral development. For such people a narrow set of rules is better This is not to say that you people who function on a level one or two of moral development are criminals. You just don't operate from an internal locus of control. You need a firm set of rules to keep you on the straight and narrow. The threat of punishment is a powerful motivator for level l ones. People can understand the motivations of people operating on one level above their own. Let's say a level one found a wallet loaded with money.he might turn it in if he was afraid of the consequences . of getting caught with it.Faced with a situation where there was zero chance of getting caught. Such a person would not be able to understand why someone functioning on a higher level would turn the wallet in. It would seem to be crazy. What are you thinking man? There is no way your going to get caught.It's not a question of learning right and wrong it's developmental.https://www.psychologynoteshq.com/kohlbergstheory/

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #77
      Originally posted by redrover View Post

      Back in the early 1980's when I became a Unitarian our church was working on a project called the Loose leaf Bible.It was a personal search for things that had meaning and to discard things that areno longer operative.I understand this would be an impossible task at the lower stages of moral development. For such people a narrow set of rules is better This is not to say that you people who function on a level one or two of moral development are criminals. You just don't operate from an internal locus of control. You need a firm set of rules to keep you on the straight and narrow. The threat of punishment is a powerful motivator for level l ones. People can understand the motivations of people operating on one level above their own. Let's say a level one found a wallet loaded with money.he might turn it in if he was afraid of the consequences . of getting caught with it.Faced with a situation where there was zero chance of getting caught. Such a person would not be able to understand why someone functioning on a higher level would turn the wallet in. It would seem to be crazy. What are you thinking man? There is no way your going to get caught.It's not a question of learning right and wrong it's developmental.https://www.psychologynoteshq.com/kohlbergstheory/
      When you believe in nothing, you will fall for anything.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #78
        Originally posted by redrover View Post
        Back in the early 1980's when I became a Unitarian our church was working on a project called the Loose leaf Bible.It was a personal search for things that had meaning and to discard things that areno longer operative.I understand this would be an impossible task at the lower stages of moral development. For such people a narrow set of rules is better This is not to say that you people who function on a level one or two of moral development are criminals. You just don't operate from an internal locus of control. You need a firm set of rules to keep you on the straight and narrow. The threat of punishment is a powerful motivator for level l ones. People can understand the motivations of people operating on one level above their own. Let's say a level one found a wallet loaded with money.he might turn it in if he was afraid of the consequences . of getting caught with it.Faced with a situation where there was zero chance of getting caught. Such a person would not be able to understand why someone functioning on a higher level would turn the wallet in. It would seem to be crazy. What are you thinking man? There is no way your going to get caught.It's not a question of learning right and wrong it's developmental.https://www.psychologynoteshq.com/kohlbergstheory/
        Thank you for your perfect & astute psychoanalyses, they will help so many of us.

        For a free check-up from the neck up, we'll just ask you.

        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
        When you believe in nothing, you will fall for anything.
        Strange how that so reliably proves itself true isn't it ?

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #79
          Originally posted by redrover View Post

          Back in the early 1980's when I became a Unitarian our church was working on a project called the Loose leaf Bible.It was a personal search for things that had meaning and to discard things that areno longer operative.I understand this would be an impossible task at the lower stages of moral development. For such people a narrow set of rules is better This is not to say that you people who function on a level one or two of moral development are criminals. You just don't operate from an internal locus of control. You need a firm set of rules to keep you on the straight and narrow. The threat of punishment is a powerful motivator for level l ones. People can understand the motivations of people operating on one level above their own. Let's say a level one found a wallet loaded with money.he might turn it in if he was afraid of the consequences . of getting caught with it.Faced with a situation where there was zero chance of getting caught. Such a person would not be able to understand why someone functioning on a higher level would turn the wallet in. It would seem to be crazy. What are you thinking man? There is no way your going to get caught.It's not a question of learning right and wrong it's developmental.https://www.psychologynoteshq.com/kohlbergstheory/
          It certainly is easy enough to spot those higher moral level people who have discarded things that are no longer operative - like their brains for example. These would be those pillars of morality who preach that gender has nothing to do with biology, that race is just a social construct, that we need to stop global warming even though we are in an ice-age, that things like reason and logic are just the weapons of the oppressor, and who go around using violence to silence people who disagree with them because they haven't got the intellectual capacity to debate. When you get high enough on the moral development scale you no longer have any.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #80
            Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

            Thank you for your perfect & astute psychoanalyses, they will help so many of us.

            For a free check-up from the neck up, we'll just ask you.



            Strange how that so reliably proves itself true isn't it ?
            Here is a little experiment you might have some fun with. i used to demonstrate this for my student teachers using kindergarten age kids. You tell the story of two boys. One is helping his mother set the table when he trips and drops five cups breaking them all. Another boy is angry because he doesn't want to eat his peas so he takes a cup from the table and smashes it on the floor. The question then is which boy is naughtier. The boy who broke 5 cups or the boy who broke one cup? At that age many children will say the boy who broke five cups because obviously five is more than one. At that age they don't understand intent. Conventional morality falls in the level three to four range. Level four is the law and order folks. This type knows that the law says you must stop at a red light. Such a person might come driving down the road at 3 AM and stop at a red light after twenty minutes and the light hasn't changed they will continue to sit there because the law is the law. Someone operating at a lel five or six would understand the reason for the law and drive on through. You might not believe in child development but child development believes in you. Hand in there you might make it to a level three some day.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #81
              Originally posted by redrover View Post

              Here is a little experiment you might have some fun with. i used to demonstrate this for my student teachers using kindergarten age kids. You tell the story of two boys. One is helping his mother set the table when he trips and drops five cups breaking them all. Another boy is angry because he doesn't want to eat his peas so he takes a cup from the table and smashes it on the floor. The question then is which boy is naughtier. The boy who broke 5 cups or the boy who broke one cup? At that age many children will say the boy who broke five cups because obviously five is more than one. At that age they don't understand intent. Conventional morality falls in the level three to four range. Level four is the law and order folks. This type knows that the law says you must stop at a red light. Such a person might come driving down the road at 3 AM and stop at a red light after twenty minutes and the light hasn't changed they will continue to sit there because the law is the law. Someone operating at a lel five or six would understand the reason for the law and drive on through. You might not believe in child development but child development believes in you. Hand in there you might make it to a level three some day.
              What level of moral development are you at?

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #82
                Originally posted by redrover View Post
                Here is a little experiment you might have some fun with. i used to demonstrate this for my student teachers using kindergarten age kids. You tell the story of two boys. One is helping his mother set the table when he trips and drops five cups breaking them all. Another boy is angry because he doesn't want to eat his peas so he takes a cup from the table and smashes it on the floor. The question then is which boy is naughtier. The boy who broke 5 cups or the boy who broke one cup? At that age many children will say the boy who broke five cups because obviously five is more than one. At that age they don't understand intent. Conventional morality falls in the level three to four range. Level four is the law and order folks. This type knows that the law says you must stop at a red light. Such a person might come driving down the road at 3 AM and stop at a red light after twenty minutes and the light hasn't changed they will continue to sit there because the law is the law. Someone operating at a lel five or six would understand the reason for the law and drive on through. You might not believe in child development but child development believes in you. Hand in there you might make it to a level three some day.
                Great, I do hope you're right.

                Of course one never knows with us crazy right wingers does one ?

                No LOL

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Brexx View Post

                  What level of moral development are you at?
                  Probably a five maybe a six on a good day. Kohlberg came up with a series of moral dilemmas to test moral reasoning. It Your reasons for making a choice is more important than than the choice itself FOR example if your reason for not killing people is based on a belief that God wouldn't like it and he would punish me. That's classic level one. http://www.vtaide.com/blessing/Kohlberg.htm

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by redrover View Post

                    Probably a five maybe a six on a good day. Kohlberg came up with a series of moral dilemmas to test moral reasoning. It Your reasons for making a choice is more important than than the choice itself FOR example if your reason for not killing people is based on a belief that God wouldn't like it and he would punish me. That's classic level one. http://www.vtaide.com/blessing/Kohlberg.htm
                    So, for all your sneering at Christians you are one yourself, or did you not realize that what you are linking to is all about Christian parenting?


                    Although moral reasoning does not necessarily lead to moral action, the latter is based in part on one's capacity to reason about moral choices. Kohlberg was more concerned with the reasoning of the action than the action itself. And that reasoning when acted upon becomes our motivation.

                    Jesus made it clear that our motivation is just as important as our action (Matt. 6:1-18 c.f. Acts 4:36-5:11). Therefore, we (parents) need to go beyond living an exemplary lifestyle to sharing and explaining the reasons of our actions. If we don't, our children may attribute wrong reasons (and values) to our right actions!

                    We could also teach moral reasoning by discussing moral dilemmas that our children are likely to face in their daily lives ... probing for & challenging their reasoning and sharing a biblical perspective. In the context of moral dilemmas, biblical action flows from the following:
                    1. Knowing the issues involved in a moral dilemma
                    2. Understanding the biblical imperatives, principles and values pertinent to the moral dilemma
                    3. Believing in these imperatives and principles
                    4. Integrating them into our value structure
                    5. Having the desire and commitment to obey or follow them
                    Moral reasoning cannot be divorced from moral values. The inevitable question as seen in (2) above: What values are pertinent to the moral dilemma? Moral education is more than leading our children upward from one stage of reasoning to the next. It includes the teaching of biblical values. We need to teach both ... moral reasoning and moral content.

                    The challenge is to teach in such a way that matches a child's present stage of moral reasoning (or one stage ahead). As mentioned in the introduction, children cannot understand moral reasoning more than one stage ahead of their own. We can teach bible stories, biblical commands, principles and values to children emphasizing accordingly:
                    Stage 1: consequences of disobedience

                    Stage 2: blessings of obedience

                    Stage 3: obedience pleases God while disobedience grieves God

                    Stage 4: role as a child/servant of God and as a member of the community of faith

                    Stage 5: unity of the community of faith

                    Stage 6: consistency with the two great commands to love God and love our neighbour
                    It is important to recognize that a child without the Spirit of God will not and cannot accept the things of God, whatever stage of reasoning the child may be in (1 Cor. 2:14).
                    The person without the Spirit
                    does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God
                    but considers them foolishness, and
                    cannot understand them
                    because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
                    Therefore, teach God's love and forgiveness expressed through Jesus and His care and protection for the little ones.


                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #85
                      If the spirit of God is so strong on Christmas why do we celebrate it during Saturnalia with pagan germanic trappings?

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Brexx View Post

                        So, for all your sneering at Christians you are one yourself, or did you not realize that what you are linking to is all about Christian parenting?


                        Although moral reasoning does not necessarily lead to moral action, the latter is based in part on one's capacity to reason about moral choices. Kohlberg was more concerned with the reasoning of the action than the action itself. And that reasoning when acted upon becomes our motivation.

                        Jesus made it clear that our motivation is just as important as our action (Matt. 6:1-18 c.f. Acts 4:36-5:11). Therefore, we (parents) need to go beyond living an exemplary lifestyle to sharing and explaining the reasons of our actions. If we don't, our children may attribute wrong reasons (and values) to our right actions!

                        We could also teach moral reasoning by discussing moral dilemmas that our children are likely to face in their daily lives ... probing for & challenging their reasoning and sharing a biblical perspective. In the context of moral dilemmas, biblical action flows from the following:
                        1. Knowing the issues involved in a moral dilemma
                        2. Understanding the biblical imperatives, principles and values pertinent to the moral dilemma
                        3. Believing in these imperatives and principles
                        4. Integrating them into our value structure
                        5. Having the desire and commitment to obey or follow them
                        Moral reasoning cannot be divorced from moral values. The inevitable question as seen in (2) above: What values are pertinent to the moral dilemma? Moral education is more than leading our children upward from one stage of reasoning to the next. It includes the teaching of biblical values. We need to teach both ... moral reasoning and moral content.

                        The challenge is to teach in such a way that matches a child's present stage of moral reasoning (or one stage ahead). As mentioned in the introduction, children cannot understand moral reasoning more than one stage ahead of their own. We can teach bible stories, biblical commands, principles and values to children emphasizing accordingly:
                        Stage 1: consequences of disobedience

                        Stage 2: blessings of obedience

                        Stage 3: obedience pleases God while disobedience grieves God

                        Stage 4: role as a child/servant of God and as a member of the community of faith

                        Stage 5: unity of the community of faith

                        Stage 6: consistency with the two great commands to love God and love our neighbour
                        It is important to recognize that a child without the Spirit of God will not and cannot accept the things of God, whatever stage of reasoning the child may be in (1 Cor. 2:14).
                        The person without the Spirit
                        does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God
                        but considers them foolishness, and
                        cannot understand them
                        because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
                        Therefore, teach God's love and forgiveness expressed through Jesus and His care and protection for the little ones.

                        Thank you for taking the time to read my link. You seem to have a handle on the concepts. I think can get there without god. I'll tell you a little story that may not be relevant, but it was something that touched me.One day I was going to hand out hula hoops to a class of first graders. I went through my usual rules about not doing things that would bend up the hoops. Then I pulled out a badly misshapen hoop. Next came my story about how was in the back in my office and I heard this whimpering so I came out and realized it was this hoop crying. So I asked what's wrong . And the hoop said that none of the boys and girls want to play with me. Then I said that's because you are all bent up and the children like to use the nice round ones. Then the hoop said it's not my fault. Then this little guy who could be handful piped up and said I'll play with that one. Where does that kind of empathy come from? Even now that story kind of mists me up.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                          If the spirit of God is so strong on Christmas why do we celebrate it during Saturnalia with pagan germanic trappings?
                          That's a very good question that many Christians don't like to talk about.

                          It does show just how ingrained traditions can become in massive populations even if these traditions are based on false information.

                          Jesus was not born on Christmas day. This date is actually linked to pagan traditions that predate Jesus’ birth by thousands of years. Old customs of pagan origin entered the Christian churches many centuries ago and are now viewed as an essential part of Christian worship. Most church-goers today don't even think to ask, “Where does Christmas come from anyway?”

                          They just accept it 'as is' because - "that's what everybody does."

                          Scriptures don't record the exact date of Christs birth, but biblical and historical evidence make it clear that Christ was not born in the middle of winter. All the evidence clearly points to a two-week period sometime in the fall.

                          Originally posted by redrover View Post
                          Thank you for taking the time to read my link. You seem to have a handle on the concepts. I think can get there without god. I'll tell you a little story that may not be relevant, but it was something that touched me.One day I was going to hand out hula hoops to a class of first graders. I went through my usual rules about not doing things that would bend up the hoops. Then I pulled out a badly misshapen hoop. Next came my story about how was in the back in my office and I heard this whimpering so I came out and realized it was this hoop crying. So I asked what's wrong . And the hoop said that none of the boys and girls want to play with me. Then I said that's because you are all bent up and the children like to use the nice round ones. Then the hoop said it's not my fault. Then this little guy who could be handful piped up and said I'll play with that one. Where does that kind of empathy come from? Even now that story kind of mists me up.
                          It's still out there.

                          One has to get out among real people to experience it though. Watching the news and reading the news on websites, will only make one imagine what a nasty & hateful creature humans are.

                          Hate is the new commodity these days. Everyone has some to sell. Everyone has someone to tell us about who we should hate. We all have a hateful enemy to combat....

                          Unplug sometimes

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                            That's a very good question that many Christians don't like to talk about.

                            It does show just how ingrained traditions can become in massive populations even if these traditions are based on false information.

                            Jesus was not born on Christmas day. This date is actually linked to pagan traditions that predate Jesus’ birth by thousands of years. Old customs of pagan origin entered the Christian churches many centuries ago and are now viewed as an essential part of Christian worship. Most church-goers today don't even think to ask, “Where does Christmas come from anyway?”

                            They just accept it 'as is' because - "that's what everybody does."

                            Scriptures don't record the exact date of Christs birth, but biblical and historical evidence make it clear that Christ was not born in the middle of winter. All the evidence clearly points to a two-week period sometime in the fall.



                            It's still out there.

                            One has to get out among real people to experience it though. Watching the news and reading the news on websites, will only make one imagine what a nasty & hateful creature humans are.

                            Hate is the new commodity these days. Everyone has some to sell. Everyone has someone to tell us about who we should hate. We all have a hateful enemy to combat....

                            Unplug sometimes
                            This morning I was responding to one of your post when I HIT A GLITCH i never found my way back to it. You suggested as a Unitarian I should meditate on an answer. In my reply I said THAT THERE MAY BE SOME Unitarians WHO meditate but it is not associated with our religion. Unitarians are tolerant of all other religions. In our sanctuary we have banners with symbols of all the major world religions. We believe that truth is where you find it whether it be found in the bible, the Koran, the teachings the Buddah or the writings of Ralph Waldo Emerson. Emanuel Kantor any other place where wisdom can be found. It's a religion based on reason. Yes I am intolerant of republican Christians because they are not a religion but clearly a political party. We have no dogma. Or things we are required to believe. to learn more check out this link and some of the sub links. https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe
                            https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by redrover View Post
                              This morning I was responding to one of your post when I HIT A GLITCH i never found my way back to it. You suggested as a Unitarian I should meditate on an answer. In my reply I said THAT THERE MAY BE SOME Unitarians WHO meditate but it is not associated with our religion. Unitarians are tolerant of all other religions. In our sanctuary we have banners with symbols of all the major world religions. We believe that truth is where you find it whether it be found in the bible, the Koran, the teachings the Buddah or the writings of Ralph Waldo Emerson. Emanuel Kantor any other place where wisdom can be found. It's a religion based on reason. Yes I am intolerant of republican Christians because they are not a religion but clearly a political party. We have no dogma. Or things we are required to believe. to learn more check out this link and some of the sub links. https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe
                              https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe
                              That's true I think. Just like Democrat Christians - yeah, there are those - are not a religion, but clearly a political party.

                              I think it's unfortunate that some political groups have tried to associate or disassociate themselves from this or that religion. It's unfortunate that some want to associate some political groups with this or that religion too.

                              It's made for a sort of cultural war about what and how we should believe. There's a lot of other things going on in our society that feed this war too, dividing dividing growing the hate and resentments.

                              Sad, but it seems like it might take some very real and serious trouble to bring us back together. Make us stop hating our neighbors because they think this or believe that.

                              Meditation done well, can help ones self awareness, to be more conscious of what ones mind is doing. It certainly isn't something that has a negative effect, taking some time to calmly find a well grounded awareness.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by redrover View Post
                                This morning I was responding to one of your post when I HIT A GLITCH i never found my way back to it. You suggested as a Unitarian I should meditate on an answer. In my reply I said THAT THERE MAY BE SOME Unitarians WHO meditate but it is not associated with our religion. Unitarians are tolerant of all other religions. In our sanctuary we have banners with symbols of all the major world religions. We believe that truth is where you find it whether it be found in the bible, the Koran, the teachings the Buddah or the writings of Ralph Waldo Emerson. Emanuel Kantor any other place where wisdom can be found. It's a religion based on reason. Yes I am intolerant of republican Christians because they are not a religion but clearly a political party. We have no dogma. Or things we are required to believe. to learn more check out this link and some of the sub links. https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe
                                https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe
                                You want to base all of your beliefs on people and not on a deity. That way, you can't be held to any standard other than your own.

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